Creation or Evolution

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buffalo said:
The Toledoths of Genesis says different.
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The website is complete claptrap, and quite insulting to Catholic Bible scholarship.

The origins of the Pentateuch are well known to Catholic, ‘mainline’ Protestant, and Jewish scholars, and Catholics, especially Catholic clergy, have been in the forefront of Bible research throughout the Church’s history, and such schloarly work will continue long into the future in spite of the ranting of cranks.
 
NoelFitz said:
Edwest2
I was surprised and disappointed by your reply to Beeliner.

I had thought Catholic Answers was a forum for Catholics to discuss, and be encouraged in their, common faith and for others of good will to seek to find out what Catholics believe.
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I have referred to my Catholic background and education numerous times in exchanges with the Edster.

I am getting old too, so I realize that at some point the memory begins to fade, but in Ed’s case, I think it’s just a matter of self-absorption. Any opinion on anything that differs from his own is automatically rejected.

I had the usual four years of high school religion: Advanced Cathecism, Bible History, Church History, and Apologetics, at the same school that graduated Fulton J. Sheen, Spalding Institute in Peoria, Illinois.

Most of the views I express here are based solidly on that background. Where Ed gets his bizarre slant on Catholicism I cannot imagine.

There have, however, been major advances in Bible scholarship since I graduated from high school in 1958, and I try to keep up with the state of the art.

To me, that state is best represented by the Anchor Bible, originally published by Doubleday, now owned by Yale University, continuously in revision, and fully approved the Catholic Church.

There are several other good modern translations, but the Anchor is the absolute cream-of-the-crop, and that is my final authority until something better comes along.

If anything I post here is at odds with the Anchor, I would like to be informed.

Their treatment of Genesis is especially recommended. Any good public library will have a copy, perhaps even a circulating copy. Highly recommended!
 
edwest2 said:
There is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. There are numerous papal encyclicals. And they are available online…I think those who wish to learn about the Bible should consult Catholic and Vatican sources online and reference them…
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None of them support you, except perhaps some of the very ancient ones, which the Church freely recognizes as outdated and in error. Remember Galileo?

I previously referred to the 1950 Humani Generis, in which Pius XII recognizes the scientific facts of evolution, including the evolution of humanity from lower primates, while affirming that the soul is directly infused by God, something that science has never denied nor questioned nor even mentioned.

I keep asking you where the conflict lies, and you never give a cogent answer.
 
Beeliner
As I wrote before here we are inclined to wander off the point. You have raised the issue of Catholic Biblical scholarship.

You wrote:
Catholics, especially Catholic clergy, have been in the forefront of Bible research throughout the Church’s history,
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I am afraid I have to disagree respectfully with you.

Modern critical Catholic scholarship really only began around the beginning of the 20 th century with the founding of the Pontifical Biblical Institute (Jesuit, Rome) and the Ecole Biblique (Dominican, Jerusalem).

This development was encouraged by Leo XIII in Providentissimus Deus (1893). However scholarship was set back by the Modernist crisis under Pius X. Another major step forward for Catholic Biblical scholarship was the encyclical of Pius XII Divino Afflante Spiritu (1943) celebrating the 50th anniversary of Providentissimus Deus. More recently* Dei Verbum* of Pope Paul VI has been very positive.

You say Catholic clergy have been at the forefront of Catholic Biblical scholarship. In fact there have not been too many very eminent clergy scholars of the calibre of Raymond Brown, Joseph Fitzmyer, Roland Murphy, Josef Ratzinger, Albert Vanhoye, and Donald Senior. In the US eminent non-clerical Catholic scholars include Luke Timothy Johnson, Margaret Mitchell, Dianne Bergant, Barbara Bowe and Elisabeth Schussler Fiorenza.
 
edwest2 said:
To beeliner -

If you are not Catholic, why do you bother posting here?
[snip]

This is a Catholic Forum and if you are just part of the Bible Explanation Industry, why don’t you start your own forum?

You don’t seem to understand that the Living God through the power of the Holy Spirit guides the Catholic Church today. That miracles happen even in so-called “modern” times and that saints are still canonized, today. This is what Catholics believe, not some revisionist nonsense.

Peace,
Ed
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A gentle reminder:
CAF Statement of Purpose
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The Catholic Answers Forums (CAF) exists to provide a community for Catholics and non-Catholics of all levels of interest in and/or commitment to the Catholic Church where they may gather on the Internet for discussion in a safe and charitable environment. We do not require that members agree with the Catholic Church in order to participate; only that they remain charitable in their postings.
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We provide forums for discussion of various viewpoints within and outside of Christianity; some of the forums that reflect such wide points of view are Traditional Catholicism, Eastern Catholicism, and Non-Catholic Religions. While many who gather in these forums are faithful Catholics, CAF members (Catholic or otherwise) are free to discuss issues of interest to them, even though some of those issues are not entirely in line with the Church’s understanding of Christianity.
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[snip]
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=164574
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=164574
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I hope to be able to return later and answer a few questions and further contribute information. 🙂 I did make a typo earlier, I meant *was *not wasn’t. :o sorry
 
beeliner said:
The website is complete claptrap, and quite insulting to Catholic Bible scholarship.

The origins of the Pentateuch are well known to Catholic, ‘mainline’ Protestant, and Jewish scholars, and Catholics, especially Catholic clergy, have been in the forefront of Bible research throughout the Church’s history, and such schloarly work will continue long into the future in spite of the ranting of cranks.
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Cool. I am convinced. :rolleyes:
 
beeliner said:
None of them support you, except perhaps some of the very ancient ones, which the Church freely recognizes as outdated and in error. Remember Galileo?

I previously referred to the 1950 Humani Generis, in which Pius XII recognizes the scientific facts of evolution, including the evolution of humanity from lower primates, while affirming that the soul is directly infused by God, something that science has never denied nor questioned nor even mentioned.

I keep asking you where the conflict lies, and you never give a cogent answer.
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What about Galileo?
 
NoelFitz said:
  1. Modern critical Catholic scholarship really only began around the beginning of the 20 th century with the founding of the Pontifical Biblical Institute (Jesuit, Rome) and the Ecole Biblique (Dominican, Jerusalem).
  2. In fact there have not been too many very eminent clergy scholars of the calibre of Raymond Brown, Joseph Fitzmyer, Roland Murphy, Josef Ratzinger, Albert Vanhoye, and Donald Senior. In the US eminent non-clerical Catholic scholars include Luke Timothy Johnson, Margaret Mitchell, Dianne Bergant, Barbara Bowe and Elisabeth Schussler Fiorenza.
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  1. If you don’t include St. Jerome and everyone inbetween, I suppose you are right, the key word being ‘modern’!
  2. Interesting that you should mention Fr. Brown first as I had him specifically in mind as I made the post. I accept your claim, however, that Catholic laity outnumber priests in the field.
 
edwest2 said:
And God, being God, formed Eve from Adam’s side. I think it’s very important to emphasize this for Catholics.
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It’s also very important to emphasize that Genesis 1 claims that both animals and humans were created male and femaleTOGETHER on the sixth creation day, not man (male) early on and woman last of all.
 
buffalo said:
HUH???
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You asked the question’ What about Galileo?’. What about him in what respect?

If the Church is still putting scientists in prison and threatening them with torture and death for teaching the the earth revolves around the sun I am not aware of it.
 
Beeliner

thank you so much for your courteous reply to me.

Three of the scholars I mentioned Frs Brown, Murphy and Fitzmyer were the ediitors of The New Jerome Biblical Commentary.

I find the case of Fr Brown interesting as he was attacked by some Catholics, but after he was appointed to the Pontifical Biblical Commission the attacks were directed at this body.

You might like to look at forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=35334
 
beeliner said:
You asked the question’ What about Galileo?’. What about him in what respect?

If the Church is still putting scientists in prison and threatening them with torture and death for teaching the the earth revolves around the sun I am not aware of it.
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So much to learn :hmmm:

Gailileo was not put into prison for his science. The issue the Church had was his forays into philosophy. Galileo did not spend time in prison.

Pope JPII also realized this and was not able to sustain the definitive judgement he had made earlier.

“Like the majority of his adversaries, Galileo did not make a distinction between what is the scientific focus of the natural phenomena and the philosophical considerations about nature that generally follows it”
 
edwest2 said:
OK. So in what context did you post the Church believes we evolved from lower primates?
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I didn’t post that. And this is about the umpteenth time that you have misquoted or mischaracterized my posts here. So CUT IT OUT!

I said that in the encyclical he recognized the research of science in the area of human origins and neither condemned it nor pronounced it incompatible with Catholic dogma. That would include evolution of humans from lower primates, since that is how science has found that they evolved.

OK?
 
My goal is not to mischaracterize. A reading of Humani Generis showed that the Pope had had it up to here with people who said evolution was a settled matter. He also carefully articulated his views on research.

He makes it very clear that people were coming around and proclaiming things as if the Church had never ruled on them. That they had no real consideration for the deposit of faith but were interested in novelty. That there was a problem and that it was necessary to deal with the “disease” now.

Cardinal Schoenborn is not entirely convinced about common descent, saying it might be true. So I don’t understand statements that say the Church accepts, fully accepts, certain facts about evolution.

God bless,
Ed
 
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