Crimeans Who Ushered in the Russians Now Have to Live With Their Choice

[KyivAndrew]

No that was carried out by residents in Crimea and yes a referendum was organised

• I live in Krimu, Sevastopol to be exact. On 24 February 2014, 09:00, live interview on Channel 5 in Kiev, owned by Poroshenko, Oleg Tyagnibok clearly stated, heard live, ‘I will bring my 2500 men to Krimea and put every Russian there to the knife’. Tyagnibok is the leader of Svoboda Party and a sitting deputat at the time in Ukraine Rada. Yarush, the leader of Right Sector Party and now a sitting deputat in Ukraine Rada, clearly stated ‘I will bring my 2500 men, to Sevastopol, kill every Russian there and burn that city to the ground.’

We took them seriously and the barricades went up the next night. *The two roads coming in to Krim from Kherson Oblast, the 5 roads coming in to Sevastopol, and the three roads going in to Yalta were blockaded. The next morning well before dawn Krimea Rada was secured in Simferopol. The rest is history, a done deal.

What would you have had us do, go to some EU or UN court for relief? Right. Not going to happen in this city and this peninsula. VV Putin had zero to do with these actions, it was the citizens of Krimu and Sevastopol who did this, just as it was the citizens who barricaded the Ukraine army and navy in their bases.

I watch 5 kanal, pepipop, and you have to stop quoting from anonymous blog posts from a forum the language of which you can’t understand and the people whom you quote also unbeknownst to you. Around February and March of last year the Kremlin’s lying propaganda machine was in high gear to terrify Russian Crimeans.

So please find me a video clip of Tyahnybok or Yarosh claiming they are going to kill all Russians, “Russians” in Crimea from February or March of last year as you have stated on 5 kanal. I don’t support either and neither even has a party in Ukraine’s Parliament such is their support, but on a World News Forum I won’t stand for untruths masquerading as facts and this isn’t the first time you’ve relied on anonymous blog posts to provide facts.

What there are tons of video clips of from this time from 5 kanal uploaded by Russians is youtube clips with headlines like “Tyahnybok vows to murder Russsians”, and when you watch this clip you see him speaking in Ukrainian talking about defending Ukraine, no talk of “murdering Russians”. But Russian is a different language than Ukrainian so a Russian speaker unfamiliar with that will simply follow what the Youtube heading says in Russian about what a Ukrainian is saying in Ukrainian and this gets passed on into blog posts. There are a whole bunch of episodes like this with Yatseniuk using the word “inhuman” in Ukrainian and Kremlin sites translating this as “subhuman”. You see youtube comments underneath these clips repeating: “wow, he is going on about murder again” and it’s not even what is being said.

Again, this is the third or fourth time you are using blog posts in Russian, which you use google translate I believe to translate, and which posts are made by Russian-speakers who cannot apparently understand Ukrainian except what the clip tells is being spoken about.

So stop using foreign-language blog posts as real “news”.

If you wish to play the game of this Ukrainian said this about Russians using unverified sources, I suppose I can upload what Russian leaders and militias etc. have said about ethnic Ukrainians if you wish, and I won’t rely on anonymous blog posts.

 

[Darryl1958]

You think the US and Uk are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts and because of their love of Ukraine? They don’t give two cents about Ukraine except that they are salivating over hurting their geopolitical foe Russia. So they tried flexing their muscles and began to take places like Crimea with a coup government and Russian was supposed to sit their like a helpless minnow whereas if anything similar happened to posh boy or the US Mccain would be leading the bombs away charge.

For whatever reasons or insinuations that come to mind as to why people oppose Russia taking over Crimea, Ukraine, or Georgia, the elephant in the room is that the US and the UK have zero probability of annexing the Ukraine, and meanwhile that is exactly what Russia is doing.

That is the elephant in the room that is still being ignored.

It is amusing though to see people who despise Britain sooo much that that is where they move to at the first opportunity.

Yea, posh boy has got a job for you to earn money with, or cushy welfare.

 

[pepipop]

I watch 5 kanal, pepipop, and you have to stop quoting from anonymous blog posts from a forum the language of which you can’t understand and the people whom you quote also unbeknownst to you. Around February and March of last year the Kremlin’s lying propaganda machine was in high gear to terrify Russian Crimeans.

So please find me a video clip of Tyahnybok or Yarosh claiming they are going to kill all Russians, “Russians” in Crimea from February or March of last year as you have stated on 5 kanal. I don’t support either and neither even has a party in Ukraine’s Parliament such is their support, but on a World News Forum I won’t stand for untruths masquearading as facts and this isn’t the first time you’ve relied on anonymous blog posts to provide facts.

What there are tons of video clips of from this time from 5 kanal uploaded by Russians is youtube clips with headlines like “Tyahnybok vows to murder Russsians”, and when you watch this clip you see him speaking in Ukrainian talking about defending Ukraine, no talk of “murdering Russians”. But Russian is a different language than Ukrainian so a Russian speaker unfamiliar with that will simply follow what the Youtube heading says in Russia about what a Ukrainian is saying in Ukrainian and this gets passed on into blog posts. There are a whole bunch of episodes like this with Yatseniuk using the word “inhuman” in Ukrainian and Kremlin sites translating this as “subhuman”. You see youtube comments underneath these clips repeating: “wow, he is going on about murder again” and it’s not even what is being said.

Again, this is the third or fourth time you are using blog posts in Russian, which you use google translate I believe to translate, and which posts are made by Russian-speakers who cannot apparently understand Ukrainian except what the clip tells is being spoken about.

So stop using foreign-language blog posts as real “news”.

If you wish to play the game of this Ukrainian said this about Russians using unverified sources, I suppose I can upload what Russian leaders and militias etc. have said about ethnic Ukrainians if you wish, and I won’t rely on anonymous blog posts.

Maybe you weren’t watching it that night, at that particular time.

They are English speaking forums, not that’s it’s anyone’s business what forums I frequent or quote from. This is the only quote I have ever posted from a forum poster, albeit several times, all other links to my posts are verifiable.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Have you ever heard of the American conservative political commentator Pat Buchanan? He was a senior advisor to President Richard Nixon, President Gerald Ford, and President Ronald Reagan. He also ran for President himself.
Here is what he has to say about Putin paranoia:
Russia is a natural ally and Russia is on our side:
wnd.com/2015/02/putin-paranoia/

I love Buchanan, don’t get me wrong, but the sad truth is that he is to many of us a bit of a nutter, especially on foreign policy. Steer clear of him here.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Maybe you weren’t watching it that night, at that particular time.

No, this isn’t a joke. I’ve seen what some Russian youtube clips are passing off mistranslating Ukrainian on purpose, and it is untrue to put it mildly. I watch TV from Ukraine daily.

 

[pepipop]

No, this isn’t a joke. I’ve seen what some Russian youtube clips are passing off is untrue to put it mildly. I watch TV from Ukraine daily.

Fine, but are you stating that any Russian clips I posted were untrue, if so please point them out as I would be interested?

No doubt there are untrue Russian videos on youtube.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Fine, but are you stating that any Russian clips I posted were untrue, if so please point them out as I would be interested?

No doubt there are untrue Russian videos on youtube.

I was responding to the claim made using a blog post from some Crimea forum which, as you said, you mentioned just several times. I was responding to that specifically, nothing else.

But I will try to find you a video of Russian army-men who fought in Ukraine and were wounded or killed there and their families’ reaction. Putin doesn’t really care about these dead Russians or their families and lies to them.

The Kremlin’s Secret War: Russia’s Ghost Army in Ukraine (Full Length)

youtube.com/watch?v=C66mAkS1ZfM

Please watch it pepipop, or anybody else on CAF who still erroneously claims there were and are no Russian soldiers or weapons in Ukraine. Tell that to the Russian mother whose young son was sent to kill in Ukraine by Putin. If the dead Russian soldiers’ mothers complain they can get branded “foreign agents” by Putin’s police state.

 

[pepipop]

I was responding to the claim made using a blog post from some Crimea forum which, as you said, you mentioned just several times. I was responding to that specifically, nothing else.

But I will try to find you a video of Russian army-men who fought in Ukraine and were wounded or killed there and their families’ reaction. Putin doesn’t really care about these dead Russians or their families and lies to them.

The Kremlin’s Secret War: Russia’s Ghost Army in Ukraine (Full Length)

youtube.com/watch?v=C66mAkS1ZfM

Please watch it pepipop, or anybody else on CAF who still erroneously claims there were and are no Russian soldiers or weapons in Ukraine. Tell that to the Russian mother whose young son was sent to kill in Ukraine by Putin. If the dead Russian soldiers’ mothers complain they can get branded “foreign agents” by Putin’s police state.

The Ukrainian generals have stated there are no Russian troops in Ukraine.

globalresearch.ca/ukraine-military-high-command-confirms-no-russian-invasion-or-regular-troops-presence-of-nato-forces-in-donbass/5431369

Yes, I take your point about Crimea.

 

[Klemens_Hadwig]

Does anybody even read Playboy any more, or get their pornography from magazines, for that matter.

Russians are noted for their pornography sites, btw.

This was in the 1990s. Of course these specific things have changed, but their contemporary equivalents have persisted and expanded into the present day.

 

[Klemens_Hadwig]

Still being ignored…

Please spare us this sort of baiting. However, I will bite.
If you are familiar with the Beloveža Accords of 1991, you will know that Russia does possess an internationally acknowledged sphere of influence, namely the Commonwealth of Independent States. The CIS is the legal successor to the USSR and is still a functioning organisation to the present day. Ukraine is currently (even in 2015) a participating member, and Georgia withdrew only after the South Ossetian conflict in August of 2008. The remaining states of the former USSR (exempting the Baltic states) are all part of the CIS. Although I am no expert, I do believe that the provisions of the Accords do allow for Russia to maintain a garrison in the member states, even in peacetime, which should act as a warning to NATO. Even if this were not the case, the countries of the CIS are part of an acknowledged Russian sphere, regardless of opinion. Thus, any rapprochements by the west, such as those coming from NATO or the EU, are in fact ignoring the existence of an already established and recognised structure.

The pattern of Russia’s wars, if you examine the history of the Russian Federation (which came into existence in 1991) is quite simple. You have this established sphere consisting of sovereign member states. A member state is offered rapprochement from a rival organisation in the west. Said state appears to accept the offers for whatever reason. Now there is a problem. Russia’s sphere is being undermined, with the further possibility of having a NATO state at its borders. Anybody can see a problem arising. This is Geopolitics 101.
Consequently, following this development, a war ensues (South Ossetian Conflict, Ukrainian Civil War), initiated by the emergence of pro-Russian separatism in that state.

The goal is simple. Outright conquest is nearly impossible and in fact unnecessary. Fragmentation will prevent the state from falling into enemy hands for two reasons. First, it preoccupies and weakens the current government, and secondly, if the state fails (partition, reduction of territory), then the asset no longer exists for both the US and Russia.

Is there Russian aggression in Ukraine? Possibly.
If there is, is Russia’s aggression unprovoked (from both the Russian point of view and realpolitik)? No.
Is the Russian Federation on a rampage of actual expansion?
Compare maps of Russian spheres of influence from 1948 until the present day and you will have a definite answer.

 

[KyivAndrew]

The Ukrainian generals have stated there are no Russian troops in Ukraine.

globalresearch.ca/ukraine-military-high-command-confirms-no-russian-invasion-or-regular-troops-presence-of-nato-forces-in-donbass/5431369

Yes, I take your point about Crimea.

You didn’t bother watching the clip I posted about Russian troops in Ukraine did you?

Is this global research site which a lot of pro-Putinists use for information some sort of far-out politically site?

What one Ukrainian general Muzhenko said at the time of the Debaltsevo fight after a Minsk 2 ceasefire was declared was that there are indeed Russian army men fighting in Ukraine with pro-Russian volunteer battalions but that the Ukrainian army at that specific time was not fighting Russian regular army units and that the Ukrainian Army could defend its territory no problems. It was a pep-talk and he was wrong. That was his view at that time, before Debaltsevo fell to the Russian separatists. He was claiming the pro-Russian forces were not strong enought to take Debaltsevo, but they did, and Muzhenko was wrong as the pro-Russian separatist forces kept attacking Ukrainian Debaltsevo after the Minsk 2 ceasefire was signed, bombed it to heck, and took it over despite Muzhenko claiming the Ukrainian army had enough strength to hold it, which is when he made the comment we are discussing. General Muzhenko wanted the Ukrainians to hold Debaltsevo at the time which is what his comments were directed at.

5.ua/ato-na-shodi/myjenko-ykrajna-ne-maye-dokaziv-masovoj-ychasti-zbroinih-sil-rf-y-boyah-na-donbasi-68687.html?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Twitter

If anything regular Russian military and spetsnaz get interspersed with pro-Putin volunteer battalions and train them often though full military units and armour look to have been used in the Ilovaysk battle and other situations such as when Ukrainian border guards are fired at from Russian army positions in Russia per se fired into Ukraine.

Please watch the video I sent you about evidence of Russian troops in Ukraine before you dismiss this fact out of hand.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Back on the trolls for a second - it is important I think to remember what the goal of this kind of misinformation is. It is not to actually convince people that Russia is not actively engaged in aggression/annexation in Crimea and the Ukraine. The free flow of accurate information is just too widespread.

The goal is to just to confuse and obscure. Just a run around…you just end up where you started. The clear evidence of Russian aggression is the same in the beginning and the end. Such is the life of the Russian apologist…this is what passes for national pride and integrity. That is the real problem.

The West in fact is not doing much better. It’s a grim, empty picture on both sides.

 

[Klemens_Hadwig]

No one has to buy what the West sells. I admit to being shocked at what Western trash many are drawn to - I am not. I have not been in a McDonalds for over 20 years. I don’t even drink Coca-Cola or any kind of soft drink. My parents taught me to avoid that stuff right here in the good old USA. It is called free will (and good taste). To reduce the West to a mere supplier of superficial junk is just ignorance. If you are struggling with attachment to this stuff, not sure that is the West’s fault…

My ‘hatred’ of this matter hardly arrives from personal struggles with it. All I am saying is that it results in a terrible international homogenisation through the destruction of native cultures which never produced such things. This trend moves beyond the mere question of individual choice between what is good and bad. For better or for worse, the west did create what essentially can be summarised as mass culture. Furthermore, mass culture managed to overtake ‘native’ resistance. Thus, mass culture can be equivocated with the individualistic, capitalist, bourgeois west. However, culture, or the collective relations between people, is formed and influenced largely through material conditions. These relations normally vary through because of climate, history, political arrangements, and finally the economic climate generated by the preceding factors. Thus, economic and political homogenisation according to a single model in effect does away with native culture.
Is this not the inevitable result of the importation of the base products originating from the west into foreign spheres?

 

[Son_of_Niall]

Back on the trolls for a second - it is important I think to remember what the goal of this kind of misinformation is. It is not to actually convince people that Russia is not actively engaged in aggression/annexation in Crimea and the Ukraine. The free flow of accurate information is just too widespread.

The goal is to just to confuse and obscure. Just a run around…you just end up where you started. The clear evidence of Russian aggression is the same in the beginning and the end. Such is the life of the Russian apologist…this is what passes for national pride and integrity. That is the real problem.

The West in fact is not doing much better. It’s a grim, empty picture on both sides.

I hope you are aware of the tools the moderators have at their disposal. If you knew how easy it is to p(name removed by moderator)oint the EXACT place you are posting from, you’d run screaming into the night. You don’t even have to be a moderator or NSA, If I wanted to, I could just peruse your posts here and I could find out more about you than realize you are revealing. It really isn’t that hard, if you know what to look for.

 

[FollowChrist34]

My ‘hatred’ of this matter hardly arrives from personal struggles with it. All I am saying is that it results in a terrible international homogenisation through the destruction of native cultures which never produced such things. This is beyond the question of individual choice between what is good and bad, but rather the disappearance of entire ways of life.

I don’t think I used the word “hatred.” And, if it is any consolation, I couldn’t agree with you more. Western freedom doesn’t have to be reduced to capitalism or hedonism, for God’s sake. (my frustration is general, not aimed at you) Too many people live this way. And I agree we lose the value of individual cultures. Look at how everybody speaks English for example. People just take the easiest route possible. It’s weakness, plain and simple. I don’t think Putin is the answer though. He is just turning the situation to his own advantage - manipulating people based on their justifiable fear and scorn of Western decadence. If you are strong enough to resist one, you should be strong enough to resist the other.

The Bible will steer you clear of both.

 

[Klemens_Hadwig]

I’m also polish and it is true that western liberalism (thanks to forces like the PO party) is spreading very quickly into Poland. The demonization of catholic priests, catholic media, and traditionalists from Poland by the pro european liberal elite would make people on this forum sick but that gets no press from the western media because its team west…

At least Russian leadership doesn’t bless planned parenthood and is trying something different than a liberal secular regime that is brainwashed as the only way to run a government.

Jeszcze Polska nie zginęła, i chwała Bogu!

 

[FollowChrist34]

I hope you are aware of the tools the moderators have at their disposal. If you knew how easy it is to p(name removed by moderator)oint the EXACT place you are posting from, you’d run screaming into the night. You don’t even have to be a moderator or NSA, If I wanted to, I could just peruse your posts here and I could find out more about you than realize you are revealing. It really isn’t that hard, if you know what to look for.

I don’t doubt it. I also take great comfort that I don’t know what the hell you are talking about. Maybe a break from social media is in order - walk on the beach?

Cheers buddy.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

I don’t doubt it. I also take great comfort that I don’t know what the hell you are taking about. Maybe a break from social media is in order - walk on the beach?

Cheers buddy.

Didn’t mean to get your paranoia meter running. I was trying to say it’s not that easy to infiltrate a forum like this. I cope by simply not worrying about it.
Besides, if the NSA has a file on me, they’re in pretty bad shape.

 

[Klemens_Hadwig]

I don’t think I used the word “hatred.” And, if it is any consolation, I couldn’t agree with you more. Western freedom doesn’t have to be reduced to capitalism or hedonism, for God’s sake. (my frustration is general, not aimed at you) Too many people live this way. And I agree we lose the value of individual cultures. Look at how everybody speaks English for example. People just take the easiest route possible. It’s weakness, plain and simple. I don’t think Putin is the answer though. He is just turning the situation to his own advantage - manipulating people based on their justifiable fear and scorn of Western decadence. If you are strong enough to resist one, you should be strong enough to resist the other.

The Bible will steer you clear of both.

I cannot say anything about Putin’s motivations, because I do not know how he thinks. Perhaps nobody knows what he is thinking. Maybe he does not even know. All I am saying is that Putin, regardless of his motivations, does offer an alternative. Russia is a significant power whose leader rejects foreign liberalism.

As a historical note, do we question the benefits of Constantine’s Edict simply because of uncertain motivations? The good actions of leaders do not depend on their motivations, but on the actions themselves. Saintly leaders are those whose actions and motivations are both good. Remember also the old saying ‘the road to hell is paved with good intentions’. Better to have a badly motivated leader committing good actions rather than a well motivated leader committing bad actions.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I cannot say anything about Putin’s motivations, because I do not know how he thinks. Perhaps nobody knows what he is thinking. Maybe he does not even know. All I am saying is that Putin, regardless of his motivations, does offer an alternative. Russia is a significant power whose leader rejects foreign liberalism.

As a historical note, do we question the benefits of Constantine’s Edict simply because of uncertain motivations? The good actions of leaders do not depend on their motivations, but on the actions themselves.

I take the view that Putin’s motivations can be easily discerned from a relatively quick, impartial analysis of his actions, comments and background. I don’t think he is a genuinely religious man at all. Decadence in the West is our Achilles heel. Maybe cancer would be a better analogy - with Putin (and/or ISIS) as our Dr. Kevorkian.

I personally am not quite there yet; I have no problem resisting all of the above. I also believe that if Putin pushes much harder, the West will rather suddenly, mysteriously recover its health and vigor…

Seriously, I think followers of Putin who are doing it for reasons of conscience/moral/religious commitment will be incredibly disappointed, horrified even, once they figure him out. He is not a savior.