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Unitas
Guest
Actually, it says that you shouldn’t adore or serve them. Quite different.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Only in your errant thinking. What do we ask Mary for? Her prayers. Her intercession. Since we believe that the saints in heaven can see and are aware of what goes on with us here on earth, (as Hebrews 12:1 and other passages plainly show) then it makes perfect sense (Biblically no less) to ask Mary, the saints and angels to pray for us (along with us) for our needs.
You do the very same thing when you ask someone to pray for you, you just fail to understand that the body of Christ and the communion of saints (Link to Bible study notes) is bigger than your little theology.
(Edited by Moderator)The people of Israel bowed down before the Ark of the Covenant did they not? What was on the top of that? (By God’s own command no less, right?)
Moreover, Exodus 20:5 says, Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:
As I know you’ve been told before, since we do not adore or serve them we are not idolaters.
My Douay-Rheims Bible has a very informative note at that point that is well worth sharing here.
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newbie1234
Guest
nkjv- says bow down nor serve
niv - bow down or worship
amplified- bow down to them or serve them
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newbie1234
Guest
If the Holy Spirit guides to do these things than go right ahead!
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Church_Militant
Guest
niv - bow down or worship
amplified- bow down to them or serve themAll of which supports the Catholic position as I have shown you.
Consider it done.
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Unitas
Guest
All based on the hebrew old testament, the replacement of the septuagint for the OT at Luther’s behest.
Why protestants refuse to accept doctrinal and moral authority from the pope, and yet accept without a bat of the eyelash, the authority of Luther to dump the septuagint from the Bible for the hebrew OT, which was never there before, is beyond me.
We’re told not to follow the “traditions of men” yet they accept Luther’s decision to change the scriptures and accept it as the sole authority. If He can change the sole authority, then the bible isn’t the sole authority at all. He is.
Regardless, the debate we’re having now is why the OT was switched in the first place; Luther thought the practice was wrong as well so he swapped in an OT that could be used to agree with him.
Even so, if we look at both translations, one says “bow” the other says “adore.”
Can we bow in adoration? Yup.
Can we bow not in adoration? You betcha.
So then in view of both sources, the only common thread between the two concerning Ex 20:5 is that it is wrong to bow in adoration.
That is simply not the case here. Only God is worthy of adoration, not some contruct of human hands. The simple act of bowing does not always mean worship. People in Japan do it all the time. They’re not worshiping one another, but doing it as a greeting; a sign of respect. This is the same spirit in which it is done by Catholics. End of story.
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VociMike
Guest
Again in my opinion you’re just grasping at straws. I hardly believe that Protestants would be “cool” with e.g. bowing down to their pastors in reverence, based on your interpretation.
A further abosolutely critical point: if we bow down, it is not to a statue. It is to the perfect and holy saint in heaven, honored by God Himself, whom the statue represents. That alone explodes your objection. The object of any bowing that might happen is not the statue, but the saint in heaven.And I don’t remember you addressing Ex 20:4 about making any, I repeat, any likeness. I don’t know one Protestant in the world who fully adheres to that part of the Old Law. So why the selective upset? Why aren’t you just as upset at e.g. all those pictures in the children’s bibles used in Sunday schools?
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JoeyWarren
Guest
Let’s get extreme and hyper literal here for a minute?
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Serve?
I guess we are all Idolaters!
I and you WORK for this engraven image:
http://staff.science.uva.nl/~bobd/tvbs/payments/one-dollar.jpg
You will have to admit that we all WORK for the Dollar.
You will have to admit that we all are ENSLAVED
to the Dollar.
You will have to admit that we all KEPT IN BONDAGE for the Dollar.
You will have to admit that we all HAVE BECOME A SERVANT for the Dollar.
You will have to admit that all the definitions apply to us and our relationship to the ALL MIGHTY DOLLAR except for the last definition. Or do we?
We do more in our daily lives for the Dollar then we do for God.
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Serve?
I really like the first and primary definition. TO WORK ( in any sense ).
I guess we are all Idolaters!
I and you WORK for this engraven image:
http://staff.science.uva.nl/~bobd/tvbs/payments/one-dollar.jpg
You will have to admit that we all WORK for the Dollar.
You will have to admit that we all are ENSLAVED
to the Dollar.
You will have to admit that we all KEPT IN BONDAGE for the Dollar.
You will have to admit that we all HAVE BECOME A SERVANT for the Dollar.
You will have to admit that all the definitions apply to us and our relationship to the ALL MIGHTY DOLLAR except for the last definition. Or do we?
We do more in our daily lives for the Dollar then we do for God.
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Denae
Guest
We don’t expect Mary to grant our prayers. We want GOD to grant our prayers. We are asking for Mary’s HELP in that. Basically, have you ever asked someone to pray for you? What if someone came to you and asked you to pray for them?? Would you say “No. I won’t pray for you because you can go to God yourself?” If your friend’s dad was dying and your friend came to you and asked you to pray for him as his dad dies, what would you say “Nope. Go to God yourself.” ? I surely hope not or I feel terrible for your friends. That’s why we go to Mary and the saints. We ask them to pray to God on our behalf. We do it through the saints and through just going to God. But like you pray for your friend and your friend prays for you, Mary prays for us. We can go to Him alone for help. And we do. Oh and by the way, if you are not a Catholic, then don’t tell a Catholic what they are doing in their own Church.
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water
Guest
Yet, you pray for others and you may ask others to pray for you and you have no problem with that. Thus, it is very important to ask those in Heaven to pray for you, especially Virgin Mother. Oh yes, She can hear you well.
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catholicdad01
Guest
Baraq,
I mean no offense and mean no ill will, but I placed you into the group that did not answer my question.
I, personally, have worn a crucifix for years, even before I converted to Catholicism. However, I never really knew why, I just found one that I liked and wore it. I have always been strong in my faith, but was never one to “preach” to others about my beliefs. The churches that I attended growing up always had a cross on the wall, but never one with our Savior on it.
As I have become stronger in my Catholic faith, I have been trying to learn even more about Holy Mother Church. I had never been asked about this, and did not have an answer for my friend.
It seems to me that all your initial post has done is stir up some controversy, while not giving me a way to answer my friend.
I, again, personally, do not see the crucifix as an image or idolotry in any way.
By the way, when I genuflect before Mass it is not to the crucifix, it is to MY Saviour, ever present in the tabernacle.
God Bless You!
I mean no offense and mean no ill will, but I placed you into the group that did not answer my question.
I, personally, have worn a crucifix for years, even before I converted to Catholicism. However, I never really knew why, I just found one that I liked and wore it. I have always been strong in my faith, but was never one to “preach” to others about my beliefs. The churches that I attended growing up always had a cross on the wall, but never one with our Savior on it.
As I have become stronger in my Catholic faith, I have been trying to learn even more about Holy Mother Church. I had never been asked about this, and did not have an answer for my friend.
It seems to me that all your initial post has done is stir up some controversy, while not giving me a way to answer my friend.
I, again, personally, do not see the crucifix as an image or idolotry in any way.
By the way, when I genuflect before Mass it is not to the crucifix, it is to MY Saviour, ever present in the tabernacle.
God Bless You!
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newbie1234
Guest
True
The fact that you noticed this is awesome.
Now what are you going to do about it?
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newbie1234
Guest
Do you know what was in the Ark of the Covenant that deserved praise?
Answer The Shekinah(sp) Glory
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Baraq
Guest
Cathdad- Did I not answer your question? or did you just not like my sincere answer?
Max, Thank you for your prayers, I will keep you in mine today. As for images, we consider images of the divine used in worship as forbidden. Im not sure how this might compare to the Taliban, Ive read they are against images even in newsprint, TV magazines etc…
As for the great art pieces, they often stray from Scripture. Does not Isaiah tell us that he is dark? Does he not also tell us that there is nothing in his looks that we might desire him? Does not Paul tell us that long hair for a man is a shame to him? Do these art pieces depict that? I love the Lord with all my heart, all my soul , all my strength…How can I find adoration for anothers depiction of great art in place of my Lord?
As for sufferings, Our Lord suffered greatly in Life only climaxing in his death. I dont think its possible for an image to possibly represent his sufferings in life let alone taking our iniquity upon himself on the cross.
When I say the Reformed Church, Im including Churches faithful to Reformed Statements(like the Belgic Confesstion, Heidleberg Catechism, Westminster Confession etc…) Our Churches are called Presbyterian, Dutch Reformed, Reformed Baptists etc…but just seeing those in the name is no longer evidence that the churches are faithful
Many Synods have broken away and have moved toward the big box denom type churches, like the PCUSA.
Max, Thank you for your prayers, I will keep you in mine today. As for images, we consider images of the divine used in worship as forbidden. Im not sure how this might compare to the Taliban, Ive read they are against images even in newsprint, TV magazines etc…
As for the great art pieces, they often stray from Scripture. Does not Isaiah tell us that he is dark? Does he not also tell us that there is nothing in his looks that we might desire him? Does not Paul tell us that long hair for a man is a shame to him? Do these art pieces depict that? I love the Lord with all my heart, all my soul , all my strength…How can I find adoration for anothers depiction of great art in place of my Lord?
As for sufferings, Our Lord suffered greatly in Life only climaxing in his death. I dont think its possible for an image to possibly represent his sufferings in life let alone taking our iniquity upon himself on the cross.
When I say the Reformed Church, Im including Churches faithful to Reformed Statements(like the Belgic Confesstion, Heidleberg Catechism, Westminster Confession etc…) Our Churches are called Presbyterian, Dutch Reformed, Reformed Baptists etc…but just seeing those in the name is no longer evidence that the churches are faithful
Many Synods have broken away and have moved toward the big box denom type churches, like the PCUSA.
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noma
Guest
If it is impossible for pictures to represent the suffering of Christ, then it should be equally impossible for words to do so.
So the Bible does not represent the sufferings of Christ accurately, yet the Bible at least attempts to represent the sufferings of Christ for the sake of our salvation.
If pictures cannot be accurate, then the Bible cannot be accurate. If the Bible is inaccurate, how is it inerrant?
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Baraq
Guest
Noma, The Word is what God chose to use in his wisdom
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noma
Guest
But he chose this in the Greek and Hebrew languages, languages made by humans. If human language can accurately portray the sufferings of Christ, why not human art?
If one even argues that “the Bible is inspired by God, but the art is not”, the art is simply a translation of the Scriptures, Scripture in color. If it is impossible to portray, by translation into art, what God has placed through humans in Scripture, then any translation of Scripture is inadequate (and so has little weight being quoted here), and any writing or commentary on Scripture should be ceased immediately, as none of it can do justice to the suffering of Christ.
I believe Scripture is the Word God Chose to write. I believe the Holy Icons are the Pictures God Chose to draw.
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Mickey
Guest
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Baraq
Guest
We know from Scripture that the Word is inspired, but I dont believe all these conflicting Icons(which conflict not only amongst themselves but with Scripture itself) are inspired
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Church_Militant
Guest
all these conflicting Icons(which conflict not only amongst themselves but with Scripture itself) are inspiredAnd therein lies the problem for you.
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