Crucifixes

[awantz]

My stepmother taught Sunday School when I was young. She said that the Crucifix was created to mock the christians. And she said that the peace symbol was another Catholic invention to mock the cross.

My stepfather and I have tought Sunday School as well. Neither one of us teaches or taught anything like that before. I don’t know where she was coming from.

 

[JoeyWarren]

My stepfather and I have tought Sunday School as well. Neither one of us teaches or taught anything like that before. I don’t know where she was coming from.

Probably from the same type of people that created the “Stigmata Mary”.

 

[KarenNC]

Im thinking the worshipping images and this is observations I have had, comes from one example I have is say with a Catholic church in I dont know for sure but lets say for sake of discussion South America. The people there had their own gods and God was simply added to the mix. so they would add Jesus and Mary statues to the lot and continue to worship them. Therefore the statues while supposed to be a reminder become the worshipped.

Wanted to point out that in at least most polytheistic cultures (there may be some exceptions of which I am not aware), they are not “worshipping” the statues of their Gods any more than a Catholic “worships” a statue of Mary or the saints or the Crucifix. The statues are symbols, reminders, foci for intent–basically the same purpose they serve in Catholicism. This was true in antiquity and it is true now.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

My stepmother taught Sunday School when I was young. She said that the Crucifix was created to mock the christians. And she said that the peace symbol was another Catholic invention to mock the cross.

As I recall the cross was used by early Christians to mark the graves of martyrs.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Kitty Chan Posted:
“Im thinking the worshipping images and this is observations I have had, comes from one example I have is say with a Catholic church in I dont know for sure but lets say for sake of discussion South America. The people there had their own gods and God was simply added to the mix. so they would add Jesus and Mary statues to the lot and continue to worship them. Therefore the statues while supposed to be a reminder become the worshipped.”
There may well be indigenous cultures that mix pagan and Christian images. In Cuba where I am from the Santeria religion does that. Catholic churches in South America or Cuba for that matter do not do that. I do not know why you decided to pick South America as your example. Its very offensive to Catholics to be accused of idolatry or polytheism. I know many American Catholics can be put off by the fervent worship of many Latin Americans or Catholics in Asia or Africa. But the faith is the same. Jesus is the same. If you go to a Church in Caracas, Buenos Aires, Mexico City or Havana it will be the same as it is in New York City.
Saludos, cubalibre

cubalibre

I picked South America only because the place I heard of was below the States. And the name escaped me so I tried to pick a big place, I was trying hard not to offend. But still did that so to that I apolgise.

Perhaps it was Cuba but I heard it years ago and cannot remember. What you saying Water touched on with Hispanics having decorated statues of Mary. Although I do not know any examples that you mention when you say American Catholics are put off by the feverent worship, I think I know what you mean, but am not positive.

So if I understand you then you follow the same Catholic things they do in America. Im NOT testing you just curious, I think this is another area for everyone to learn understanding. Would the mass be similar? What would be different? Just simple examples. Because I really dont know and I find it interesting. What you said about Jesus being the same is quite true.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Wanted to point out that in at least most polytheistic cultures (there may be some exceptions of which I am not aware), they are not “worshipping” the statues of their Gods any more than a Catholic “worships” a statue of Mary or the saints or the Crucifix. The statues are symbols, reminders, foci for intent–basically the same purpose they serve in Catholicism. This was true in antiquity and it is true now.

I think this is why protestants avoid the statues altogether so there will be no mistakes, just my guess.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Originally Posted by JoeyWarren
The Empty Cross reminds us that he got taken down from the Cross by those that loved him.

The Empty Tomb is what reminds us of Christ’s resurrection.

Christ was resurrected from the Tomb.
Christ was not resurrected from the Cross. .

Yes, but no one has created an empty tomb. So, Protestants use the empty cross instead.

Good points, and yea it would be hard to wear a cave around the neck and like Karen pointed out its a symbol.

Used to be the fish symbol.

 

[lak611]

I think the reason why Protestants want to emphasize the resurrection over the crucifixion is, because anyone can be crucified, but not everyone can be resurrected like Christ was. The resurrection is kinda like proff that Jesus is God and that makes the crucifiction alot more meaningful. If it was anyone else on that cross what bgood would that do us? NONE

There are also Risen Christ crucifixes. For my father’s funeral, the crucifix in his casket depicted a Risen Christ.

 

[Zirconia]

How many empty crosses have you seen that have nail holes and blood on them. The ones I have seen all look unused.

The important part about it should be that it reminds you of the love and sacrifice involved in your redemption, not necessarily whether it is realistic or not.

Did you know, the traditional six-paneled door (two squares on top, two longer rectangles in the middle, and two of the same size beneath) was intended to be a reminder? The top part makes a cross, and the bottom part represents the open Bible.

I have actually found this unrealistic and almost abstract representation to be a quite effective reminder whenever I get to feeling like God hates me or is holding a grudge against me. For me it works as well as (if not better than) a sculptural or other more detailed representation.

So to each their own…

Zirconia

 

[patrick457]

Good points, and yea it would be hard to wear a cave around the neck and like Karen pointed out its a symbol.

Used to be the fish symbol.

At least we could have necklaces of the Empty Tomb with Pop-up Figures of the Resurrected Jesus inside them.

Though, if that happens, will Satanists wear an upside-down Empty Tomb?

 

[AlegreFe]

Thanks to everyone for their responses. It’s really helpful. The group we are involved with is mostly evangelical and fundamental Protestants, so I guess we’ll probably just refrain from doing our fundraiser there.

I guess one reason that I’m hesitant about any “Catholic” type issues in this group is because a few of the moms are uncomfortable having Catholics in the group. And, this year the number of Catholics went from two families to five families out of 25 total.

Because I’m so steeped in my Catholic identity, I’m trying to be very careful about how I present my Faith in the group. Sometimes, I’m not sure what are big issues for evangelical Protestants. I know the Pope and Mary, but some of the other stuff…just not sure.

Why are you in this “ecumenical” Homeschool group instead of a strictly CATHOLIC Homeschool group? I don’t see anything wrong with that but if you feel uncomfortable there then why be there?

If I were in that group with my daughter I guess I would be kind of glad that some moms there are uncomfortable with having Catholics there. hehehe

I guess since you’re already there you can just “preach” your faith by being a “silent” witness by showing love to everyone there. Saint Francis said to only use words when necessary.

 

[AlegreFe]

I think it would be just fine, I am 13 and have no catholic friends I would ask them if they wanted to buy one then if they got affended I would ask them why and then tell them why they should not get affended and mabe if you would explain it then mabe they will get the idea

:clapping: Good for you KellyAnn!
My 13 year old daughter would do the same thing and she has; not with a crucifix as the opportunity never came up, but with other things Catholic.

 

[AlegreFe]

Thanks Kellyann, it would be a nice opportunity for my daughter to learn how to explain the crucifix and why it important to Catholics. I’ll talk to her and see if she feels confident enough to answer questions.

You might be surprised about your 12 year old daughter. My daughter is 13 and she is so confident in her faith. But I wasn’t sure about how she felt about sharing her faith with her friends and cousins. She is somewhat shy. But she surprises me sometimes with how profound she can get when she speaks to her friends. Wow! I pray for her all the time. I will pray for your daughter too.

 

[AlegreFe]

So I guess I dont know I guess let catholics have a reminder of Christ on the Cross and protestants have a reminder of Christ off the Cross.

emphasis added

Do you think that Catholics don’t remember Christ off the Cross also?

We remember Christ on the Cross because that is how He is in Scripture. That is how Christ died for us and that is the only reason why we have GRACE in our lives today. Christ wants us to go to Heaven with Him. He knows of course, that we only get there through Him and only if His father in Heaven calls us.

Here is a remembrance of Jesus Christ in the Catholic Church;
During the Liturgy of the Word in the Catholic Mass, we remember Jesus Christ in the Sacred Scriptures. Jesus is right there in His Word during the readings. Jesus Christ is right there during the Gospel reading and that is why we stand during the reading of the Gospel, to show respect and reverance for Jesus Christ ALIVE in His Gospel (off the Cross).
During the Liturgy of the Eucharist in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass we see Jesus Crucified on the Altar (on the cross). Jesus is offered up to the Father. We receive Grace as the Mass is the most powerful prayer in the Church. When the Priest standing “In Persona Christi” says, “…this is MY BODY…” it is Jesus that has been sacrificed once on Calvery up on the Altar. After the consecration of the bread and wine, which is now the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, and after the offering up of Jesus Christ Crucified, the commingling of the Body and Blood is done by the Priest so as to represent Jesus Christ RISEN (off the cross). When we receive Jesus in Holy Communion we are united with the RESURRECTED Jesus Christ (off the cross).

So YES, wo DO remember Jesus BOTH Crucified and Risen!

 

[AlegreFe]

The cross by itself is irrevelant to our salvation. The cross didn’t save us, Christ’s passion and death saved us.

:yup: That is why every Catholic family should have a crucifix hanging in their home; at least one by their front door. It wouldn’t hurt to hang one in each room. And it wouldn’t hurt for a Protestant family to hang one by their front door too.

ricmat:

The cross was merely the instrument used to kill Christ, as it was used to kill thousands of others at the time. As a simple reminder, it’s OK, especially if it’s all you have, but it’s not as complete as the crucifix, even though they might have the same meaning to different people.

I believe that because the cross was used to kill many criminals, all by itself hanging on a wall is of no use. It’s just a cross. Without Jesus on there, it means nothing on your wall. If anyone wants to hang one on there wall to remind them of their faith how could you be reminded if Jesus is not there?

The only way I would have a cross is by actually carrying a small cross in my purse telling me that it is MY cross that I need to carry and follow Jesus. If I have struggles in my life I remember what Jesus said, “… pick up your cross and follow me.” So I have my small cross as a symbol to remind me of that. But as far as having one on my wall… I prefer a Crucifix, blessed of course.

 

[AlegreFe]

The crucifix reminds us of Christ’s death and the cross reminds us of Christ’s resurrection.

Well as far as remembering Christ’s resurrection, my mom has Crucifixes all over her house but she also has a cross with Jesus Christ Risen, only one. You can click on the pic to see it on their website. She doesn’t have this exact one but it’s what I found online.

catholicfamilygifts.com/ProductImages/cross-crucifix/10281.jpg

I don’t know… I think the concept is kind of strange. If I want to portray Jesus Christ risen, I wouldn’t have Him on the cross, but that’s just me. I have pictures of Jesus all over. I have the Divine Mercy image, Sacred Heart image and this famous one;
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

I also have “Ecce Homo” but that was before He was Crucified.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Wow, that’s beautiful. Both the image and His Love for us!

 

[AlegreFe]

…something else, what if the govt outlawed religion and took away all the crosses crucifixes and burned the churches.
Would it crumble our faith if we didnt have “stuff” to worship with?
Perhaps why God Word is to be on our hearts so we dont become obsessed with the stuff.

This makes me laugh, sorry but it does. Obsessed?!! Ha! Us having Jesus portrayed in our homes is NOT an obsession. And we don’t use those images to WORSHIP God. We Worship God during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. We don’t NEED those images to Worship. We have Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. He is present right there at the Altar during the Mass.

You most likely do NOT know what Catholics mean when we say we Worship God. Catholics Worship God the way the Saints and Angels Worship God in Heaven. In fact, when Catholics are at Mass, we are actually in Heaven with all the Angels and the Saints.

As far as your statement if our images were taken away if that would “crumble our faith,” that in no way would ever happen. We don’t have our faith because of those images. We have our Faith because of the Grace of Jesus Christ who died on the Cross to Save us. Sure we have these images but they are only reminders. We have Jesus in our Hearts already but it doesn’t hurt to have His images on our walls and even in our wallets and in our cars. Obsession?! not lauging anymore. Sorry but that was offensive. And that “stuff” is not just stuff the way you say it is. Those images of Christ and those crucifixes in my home are very important to me and my family. They are not the be all and end all of my faith but they are there for my family to remember and also to enjoy, just as we have family pictures on our walls. Jesus Christ, Mary and Joseph are all part of my family too along with different saints as I also have statues of different saints, St. Joseph, St. Therese, Infant of Prague, Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Grace,… etc.

I’m sure you have little nick nack figurines in your house and pictures of different things in your home, family portraits on your wall, perhaps some oil paintings? Do you have a collection of nick nacks? Perhaps it’s an obsession.

Okay, I think I’ve calmed down now. Sorry got carried away there a wee bit.

Peace! :hug1:

 

[AlegreFe]

In terms of Crucifix - Death, and Cross - Resurrection, Christ didn’t resurrect from the cross. He resurrected from the tomb. An empty tomb would be a better reminder than an empty cross

emphasis added

Exactly my thinking and this is why I find it strange that some people have the Risen Christ on a Cross. Nothing wrong with it I guess, after all some of them are beautiful. But I still find it strange. I prefer Jesus Christ crucified on my cross.

 

[AlegreFe]

Depending on cultures, crucifix, statues or images can be decorated differently. I’ve realized that Hispanics decorate statues of Virgin Mary or the crucifix quite different than my Vietnamese culture. It is just purely art there.

:yup: My mother dresses up her statue of “Rosa Mystica” (that’s our Lady). She has a beautiful long silk veil with lace trim on her, a crown and a Rosary. She also dresses her “Infant of Prague” according to the season/liturgical calender. I have pics but not on my computer yet.

How do the Vietnamese decorate their statues? Do you have pictures? Oh perhaps we could start another thread in the Catholic Living forum? Sorry.

 

[AlegreFe]

Also the bible warning not to worship images.

We are not to make any GRAVEN images so as to not make them our idols to worship. An image of Jesus is certainly not GRAVE/deadly to us. The image of Jesus Christ crucified on a cross is FAR from a GRAVEN image.

In fact, in the old testament, God commanded Moses to make a saraph serpent and mount it on a pole so that those dying and getting sick from the snakes can look at the image and they can get well.

Numbers 21:6-9
6 In punishment the LORD sent among the
people saraph serpents, which bit the people
so that many of them died.
7 Then the people came to Moses and said,
“We have sinned in complaining against the
LORD and you. Pray the LORD to take the
serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for
the people,
8 and the LORD said to Moses, “Make a
saraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone
who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover.”
9 Moses accordingly made a bronze serpent
and mounted it on a pole, and whenever anyone
who had been bitten by a serpent looked at the
bronze serpent, he recovered.

Hmm… that sounds a lot like our Crucifix. We can look at the Crucifix, remember how Christ died for us, Pray to God and ask for His Mercy, receive graces from that, and hmm… perhaps those prayers combined with the Rosary and the Mass can heal us too.
Kitty Chan:

The whole topic of signs and images is touchy, while they can be good they certainly are not needed for faith. That may be why protestants avoid them.

That’s just sad IMO; the graces you can have by praying in front of a Crucifix. I don’t see what’s so wrong with that. It’s not like we’re worshipping the crucifix itself, we’re not. It is just an image of Christ crucified. But just as God commanded Moses to make the saraph so that the people can look at it and recover, we too can pray in front of the crucifix and receive graces to help us “recover” from sin. It is not idolatry. Why would God tell Moses to do that if it was idolatry?

Today’s “idol” is gold alright but not as the “golden calf” either. Many people have money as their idol and that is what is forbidden by God. God does not forbid us to pray in front of a Crucifix. It is only a reminder of what Jesus Christ did for us out of obedience to the Father and out of pure Love for us.