P
Porknpie
Guest
Truth …
You say…
There is no “perhaps”
God has not done what you state above. You sound as if you had a LDS relapse
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You say…
God has not done what you state above. You sound as if you had a LDS relapse
M
Marie5890
Guest
Porknpie,Truth …
You say…
There is no “perhaps”
God has not done what you state above. You sound as if you had a LDS relapse
He was playing devil’s advocate. Clearly no LDS relapse.
P
Porknpie
Guest
Then I apologize…hard to understand text sometimes…Porknpie,
He was playing devil’s advocate. Clearly no LDS relapse.
Forgive me.
M
Marie5890
Guest
No problem.Then I apologize…hard to understand text sometimes…
Forgive me.
Misunderstandings happen, especially online. You have a wonderful evening!!!
God Bless.
K
kimg901
Guest
I believe there is one simple answer to TK’s question; money. Without their 14 million members (I still question the amount) giving 10%, they would fall and fall hard.
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Marie5890
Guest
14 million on the books maybe. They keep everyone on the books, even if they are no longer practicing. And for those who are “inactive” if they have no record of their death, they stay on the books until they reach the age of 110.
Retention rate of converts is l.o.w. Very.
Active LDS is more around 4-5 million.
To be fair, it’s always said that there are 1.2 billion Catholics. Ok maybe on record. But we all know that there is no way on earth that there are 1.2 billion active Catholics. Not by a long shot.
Same thing with the LDS church. There is no way they have 14 million active Mormons showing up on Sundays. From former ward clerks I have known it’s usual about 1/3 who actually are active in any given ward. The rest are on the “inactives” list.
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lynnettejane
Guest
Found my Bishops court letter the other day confirming my excommunication, in it I am told my name would be removed. Hope that’s the case.
J
JHow
Guest
But isn’t this the tree that the Mormon church currently barks up: that comments by Smith and others are just speculation on their part and that the church has no official position on geography and the book of Mormon?
Don’t get me wrong, I think you make a good case that earlier Mormons really did think Cumorah, NY was the correct hill, but the “official” line today seems to be: location not revealed.
en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Archaeology/Hill_Cumorah
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Marie5890
Guest
As of 1990, the official position of the LDS Church was that yes, the Hill Cumorah in Palmyra NY was THE hill Cumorah of the BoM where the last battle took place…
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JHow
Guest
Dude! That’s so nineties! Like, break out the Nirvana records and my Achtung Baby CD! A lot has changed since the 90’s (e.g., my waistline
).Seriously, I guess the official position is changing/has changed. But I would still question whether the exact location of the Cumorah Hill in the BOM is something on which Mormonism stands or falls. Add it to the evidence pile, I suppose.
T
TexanKnight
Guest
Sure…because they were caught with their pants down…but prophets and church leaders spoke. And even letters from the First Presidency proclaimed it. The stance now just further shows the church is false
T
TexanKnight
Guest
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Porknpie
Guest
I pray that Mormons read this…and reflect on the fact that the Book of Mormon is fiction.
There never was an apostasy in the church, let alone a great apostasy.
Joseph Smith was a false prophet who preached a new gospel after listening to an fallen Angel (demon)
Scripture says that we are not to believe him.
[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 1:8[/BIBLEDRB]
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TexanKnight
Guest
They can’t…it would be too devastating for them to realize the truth. Trust me. I have been there.
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Porknpie
Guest
Tex,
But…
You are an example…
Of someone who has “been there”
And has found the Truth.
Guided by the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit can work in them as well…to find the Truth…using their intellect, reason and will.
No?
T
TexanKnight
Guest
I sure hope so…and I pray so. A lot.
T
TexanKnight
Guest
So, I guess they agree that Cumorah shows the falseness of the LDS Church…
T
TexanKnight
Guest
why has no Mormon responded? Surely they have an answer…
T
TexanKnight
Guest
The Church has long maintained, as attested to be references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon.
F. Michael Watson - First Presidency Secretary
Letter dated October 16, 1990
It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama…
**The Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon. **
Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history…"
Joseph Fielding Smith - Mormon prophet
Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, p.232-43.
n the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” (Morm. 6:6.) On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago—events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation…
This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites, flourished in America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites’.
Marion G. Romney - First Presidency Counselor
Ensign, November 1975, p.35
Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the State of New York.
Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us a pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah.
Bruce R. McConkie - Mormon apostle
Mormon Doctrine, p. 174-175
This time it will have to do with so important a matter as a war of extinction of two peoples, the Nephites and the Jaredites, on the self same battle site, with the same ‘hill’ marking the axis of military movements. By the Nephites this ‘hill’ was called the ‘Hill Cumorah,’ by the Jaredites the ‘Hill Ramah’; it was that same ‘hill,’ in which the Nephite records were deposited by Mormon and Moroni, and from which Joseph Smith obtained the Book of Mormon, therefore the ‘Mormon Hill,’ of today—since the coming forth of the Book of Mormon—near Palmyra, New York.
B.H. Roberts - Mormon apostle and LDS church historian
Studies of the Book of Mormon, p.277
F. Michael Watson - First Presidency Secretary
Letter dated October 16, 1990
It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama…
**The Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon. **
Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history…"
Joseph Fielding Smith - Mormon prophet
Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, p.232-43.
n the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” (Morm. 6:6.) On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago—events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation…
This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites, flourished in America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites’.
Marion G. Romney - First Presidency Counselor
Ensign, November 1975, p.35
Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the State of New York.
Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us a pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah.
Bruce R. McConkie - Mormon apostle
Mormon Doctrine, p. 174-175
This time it will have to do with so important a matter as a war of extinction of two peoples, the Nephites and the Jaredites, on the self same battle site, with the same ‘hill’ marking the axis of military movements. By the Nephites this ‘hill’ was called the ‘Hill Cumorah,’ by the Jaredites the ‘Hill Ramah’; it was that same ‘hill,’ in which the Nephite records were deposited by Mormon and Moroni, and from which Joseph Smith obtained the Book of Mormon, therefore the ‘Mormon Hill,’ of today—since the coming forth of the Book of Mormon—near Palmyra, New York.
B.H. Roberts - Mormon apostle and LDS church historian
Studies of the Book of Mormon, p.277
T
TexanKnight
Guest
The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York.
James E. Talmage - Mormon apostle
Articles of Faith, Lecture 14, p.262
The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith.
Orson Pratt - Mormon apostle
Journal of Discourses 14:331
Finally, they became so utterly wicked, so fully ripened for destruction, that one branch of the nation, called the Nephites, gathered their entire people around the hill Cumorah, in the State of New York, in Ontario County; and the Lamanites, the opposite army, gathered by millions in the same region.
Orson Pratt - Mormon apostle
Journal of Discourses 17:30
Thirty-six years prior to this time his nation was destroyed in what we term the State of New York, around about a hill, called by that people the Hill of Cumorah, when many hundreds of thousands of the Nephites—men, women and children, fell, during the greatest battle that they had had with the Lamanites.
Orson Pratt - Mormon apostle
Journal of Discourses 20:63
James E. Talmage - Mormon apostle
Articles of Faith, Lecture 14, p.262
The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith.
Orson Pratt - Mormon apostle
Journal of Discourses 14:331
Finally, they became so utterly wicked, so fully ripened for destruction, that one branch of the nation, called the Nephites, gathered their entire people around the hill Cumorah, in the State of New York, in Ontario County; and the Lamanites, the opposite army, gathered by millions in the same region.
Orson Pratt - Mormon apostle
Journal of Discourses 17:30
Thirty-six years prior to this time his nation was destroyed in what we term the State of New York, around about a hill, called by that people the Hill of Cumorah, when many hundreds of thousands of the Nephites—men, women and children, fell, during the greatest battle that they had had with the Lamanites.
Orson Pratt - Mormon apostle
Journal of Discourses 20:63
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