Cumorah

[TexanKnight]

Cumorah, the artificial hill of north America, is well calculated to stand in this generation, as a monument of marvelous works and wonders. Around that mount died millions of the Jaredites; yea, there ended one of the greatest nations of this earth. In that day, her inhabitants spread from sea to sea, and enjoyed national greatness and glory, nearly fifteen hundred years.-That people forsook the Lord and died in wickedness. There, too, fell the Nephites, after they had forgotten the Lord that bought them.
Messenger and Advocate, Vol. 2, No. 2, p.220

I must now give you some description of the place where, and the manner in which these records were deposited…

You are acquainted with the mail road from Palmyra, Wayne Co. to Canandaigua, Ontario Co. N. Y. and also, as you pass from the former to the latter place, before arriving at the little village of Manchester, say from three to four, or about four miles from Palmyra, you pass a large hill on the east side of the road…

between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed.
Oliver Cowdery - Assistant President and Book of Mormon witness
Messenger and Advocate Vol. 1, No.1, p.158

 

[lax16]

As of 1990, the official position of the LDS Church was that yes, the Hill Cumorah in Palmyra NY was THE hill Cumorah of the BoM where the last battle took place…

And, the LDS Church still owns and operates the area as a Joseph Smith historic site.
From an official LDS church website:

Joseph Smith Historic Sites

The golden plates containing the Book of Mormon were buried in the Hill Cumorah, about** three miles southeast of the Smith family farm**. In the early hours of September 22, 1823, the angel Moroni showed Joseph Smith in vision exactly where the ancient record was hidden. Later that day, Joseph went to the place shown him by the angel.

"On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box,"1 wrote Joseph. He was not permitted to remove the plates on his first visit, but was instructed by the angel to return to this place every year "until the time should come for obtaining the plates."2 Exactly four years later, the angel delivered the plates to the Prophet Joseph for the purpose of translation and publication.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints acquired the Hill Cumorah in 1928. A granite monument topped by a nine-foot statue of Moroni was erected at the highest point of the hill in 1935. Today, the Church operates a modern visitors’ center at the base of the hill. A dramatic pageant featuring events from the Book of Mormon is held here every summer.

 

[TexanKnight]

there two facts that scream volumes about the LDS Church…

1. They do not excavate Cumorah
2. Mormons are afraid to address this issue.

 

[TexanKnight]

still waiting…stop dodging!

 

[Skadi]

Thousands and thousands of people died in these battles at Hill Cumorah. Excavating could actually prove Joseph Smith correct…give the Book of Mormon some credibility…

And right there is your answer, what happens if nothing is found? Some crazy excuse that the faithful will believe but that would never stand up to an apologist.

 

[TexanKnight]

And right there is your answer, what happens if nothing is found? Some crazy excuse that the faithful will believe but that would never stand up to an apologist.

yep…nothing would be found…millions would leave the Church…or have to call js a liar…

and no more cushy life for the lds leaders…

so they choose not to excavate…and the lds members here cannot defend it…

so, they bury their heads in the sand and hope we forget and move on

 

[Skadi]

yep…nothing would be found…millions would leave the Church…or have to call js a liar…

and no more cushy life for the lds leaders…

so they choose not to excavate…and the lds members here cannot defend it…

so, they bury their heads in the sand and hope we forget and move on

actually I do not believe they would necessarily lose followers en mass, but it would hurt thier appeal enormously to non-mormons and become more of a joke to other Christians than they already are.

My logic is that, if you look at cults throughout history (and by this I mean non-main stream groups with extreme devotion, not anything negetive) they have shown themselves to be incredibly resilient. The faithful, who have spent most of if not all their lives having belief dictated to them by a hierarchy of charismatic individuals and almost alwase as part of a very strong community and family oriented group. Being part of that family and community is so important to them, that the literally have the mentality of sheep, just moving along with their community because it is the focal point of their whole life. Now if a problem arises, or some belief is proven false, all the leaders need do is create some vauge idea not needing any foundation to explain it away (God put the fossils there to test us). No matter how outrageous it is, so long as it has a few shreds of logic, is presented properly, and a few prominent community members immediately fall in line, the rest of the flock follows on down the path.

Throw in some “They are persecuting gods children, end of days!” garbage and alienate your own people from the general public so as to create divide, an us and them mentality, and people will be afraid to cross, especially when that life is all they have.

The Branch Davidians walked into the fire (literaly) following an insain and unfounded doctrine, it would take much less for Mormons to accept an obviously imagined response to this.

 

[TexanKnight]

come on LDS…don’t be afraid!

 

[The_Serpent]

Why don’t you go digging yourself? Get back to us when you find evidence!

 

[TexanKnight]

Why don’t you go digging yourself? Get back to us when you find evidence!

I do not own the land, or I would

LDS are too afraid too dig

or to respond

 

[Porknpie]

Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us a pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah.
Bruce R. McConkie - Mormon apostle
Mormon Doctrine, p. 174-175

Tex.

If one can not trust pointed testimony from Joseph Smith and Mormon apostles on the Book of Mormon being true on the Hill Cumorah, then neither can one trust the following:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints affirms to the world that after the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ and the subsequent death of His Apostles, there was a falling away—an altering or a rejecting of His revealed word. The long night of apostasy lasted well over a millennium. During this period, man-made creeds and practices were substituted for the plan of salvation that Jesus had taught.[/INDENT]
No apostasy…no reason to restore something that never occurred.

Quite the opposite, the early Catholic Church membership grew quickly, guided by the Holy Spirit…just as Christ himself promised.

 

[TexanKnight]

Tex.

If one can not trust pointed testimony from Joseph Smith and Mormon apostles on the Book of Mormon being true on the Hill Cumorah, then neither can one trust the following:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints affirms to the world that after the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ and the subsequent death of His Apostles, there was a falling away—an altering or a rejecting of His revealed word. The long night of apostasy lasted well over a millennium. During this period, man-made creeds and practices were substituted for the plan of salvation that Jesus had taught.[/INDENT]
No apostasy…no reason to restore something that never occurred.

Quite the opposite, the early Catholic Church membership grew quickly, guided by the Holy Spirit…just as Christ himself promised.

Exactly.

What I don’t get is, when faced with the hundreds of inconsistencies and lies we have produced, how Mormons can stay Mormon. They can’t even respond…but they turn a blind eye

 

[SteveVH]

Tex.

If one can not trust pointed testimony from Joseph Smith and Mormon apostles on the Book of Mormon being true on the Hill Cumorah, then neither can one trust the following:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints affirms to the world that after the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ and the subsequent death of His Apostles, there was a falling away—an altering or a rejecting of His revealed word. The long night of apostasy lasted well over a millennium. During this period, man-made creeds and practices were substituted for the plan of salvation that Jesus had taught.[/INDENT]
No apostasy…no reason to restore something that never occurred.

Quite the opposite, the early Catholic Church membership grew quickly, guided by the Holy Spirit…just as Christ himself promised.

Pork, you are absolutely correct. If one cannot trust the testimony of the founder of the religion as to the most fundamental of its claims, not to mention claims made by one who is a self-proclaimed prophet of God, then one cannot trust any subsequent claims. If a religion is based upon a lie then it is a lie. But what makes it even worse in this case is that there is no evidence either for the Book of Mormon or the Apostasy. They both fail completely all by themselves. Why? Because they are lies. Not misguided thinking or lack of understanding. They are out and out lies.

I ran across a very interesting verse from Romans in a Bible study I attend just this evening. The point has been made more than a few times that it is impossible for the Catholic Church to apostatize because it is Christ’s Church, not man’s. It is Christ who “WILL BUILD MY CHURCH”. Man could not stop him if he tried. But that is the LDS argument; it wasn’t Christ who failed but man who failed.

Here is the verse I came across from Romans 3:3-4:

“What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true and every man a liar.”

The more one thinks about Cumorah the more important this issue really is. I cannot think of one known Christian site that has not been excavated. How about Peter’s tomb? Did the Church worry about what would happen if the excavation proved otherwise? Maybe. But they did not shy away from whatever truth would be discovered. And, of course, what they believed turned out to be true. It really was the tomb of Peter. To not excavate Cumorah is to say that they value their story more than they value truth, a truth they cannot bear to face.

 

[Porknpie]

Pork, you are absolutely correct. If one cannot trust the testimony of the founder of the religion as to the most fundamental of its claims, not to mention claims made by one who is a self-proclaimed prophet of God, then one cannot trust any subsequent claims. If a religion is based upon a lie then it is a lie. But what makes it even worse in this case is that there is no evidence either for the Book of Mormon or the Apostasy. They both fail completely all by themselves. Why? Because they are lies. Not misguided thinking or lack of understanding. They are out and out lies.

I ran across a very interesting verse from Romans in a Bible study I attend just this evening. The point has been made more than a few times that it is impossible for the Catholic Church to apostatize because it is Christ’s Church, not man’s. It is Christ who “WILL BUILD MY CHURCH”. Man could not stop him if he tried. But that is the LDS argument; it wasn’t Christ who failed but man who failed.

Here is the verse I came across from Romans 3:3-4:

“What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true and every man a liar.”

The more one thinks about Cumorah the more important this issue really is. I cannot think of one known Christian site that has not been excavated. How about Peter’s tomb? Did the Church worry about what would happen if the excavation proved otherwise? Maybe. But they did not shy away from whatever truth would be discovered. And, of course, what they believed turned out to be true. It really was the tomb of Peter. To not excavate Cumorah is to say that they value their story more than they value truth, a truth they cannot bear to face.

Steve,

And think this:

Instead of sending out missionaries to evangelize…wouldn’t it be infinitely better to dig up Cumorah and show the world the Book of Mormon is true and prove that Joseph Smith words were true? Would not digging up Cumorah be the easiest way to evangelize the whole world, Christian and non-Christian alike? Would not people be lining up outside Mormon temples to join the LDS Church with two year missionary efforts no longer needed? Would not LDS Church suffer from a lack of temples and need to build a 100x more? Would not all other churches need to sell their property as no one would be left ?

So WHY? WHY does the LDS Church with so much to gain, so many converts at the calling, not dig up a hill? Why do Mormons not insist that their church do so?

Our nature - our intellect and our will is ordered to know the truth that is God. That hillside speaks the truth for the LDS belief being right or wrong. The fact that the LDS Church does not excavate the site tells me that the Church leadership knows the truth…that there is nothing there and that the BOM is a lie. Our intellect and will is not ordered to follow falsehood. Why stay when the truth can be found at the local Catholic Church?

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,

And think this:

Instead of sending out missionaries to evangelize…wouldn’t it be infinitely better to dig up Cumorah and show the world the Book of Mormon is true and prove that Joseph Smith words were true? Would not digging up Cumorah be the easiest way to evangelize the whole world, Christian and non-Christian alike? Would not people be lining up outside Mormon temples to join the LDS Church with two year missionary efforts no longer needed? Would not LDS Church suffer from a lack of temples and need to build a 100x more? Would not all other churches need to sell their property as no one would be left ?

So WHY? WHY does the LDS Church with so much to gain, so many converts at the calling, not dig up a hill? Why do Mormons not insist that their church do so?

Our nature - our intellect and our will is ordered to know the truth that is God. That hillside speaks the truth for the LDS belief being right or wrong. The fact that the LDS Church does not excavate the site tells me that the Church leadership knows the truth…that there is nothing there and that the BOM is a lie. Our intellect and will is not ordered to follow falsehood. Why stay when the truth can be found at the local Catholic Church?

It really would be nice if an LDS poster would help us out here. I don’t think any of us can answer the question you pose. To me, the failure to excavate Cumorah reveals the measure of faith they have in the credibility of their founder. So why do they continue? Like I said, this is something a non-Mormon just cannot answer.

 

[TexanKnight]

It really would be nice if an LDS poster would help us out here. I don’t think any of us can answer the question you pose. To me, the failure to excavate Cumorah reveals the measure of faith they have in the credibility of their founder. So why do they continue? Like I said, this is something a non-Mormon just cannot answer.

they can’t answer.

either they have to agree with us, or tell us Cumorah is not THE Cumorah, thereby contradicting THE “prophet” and several other “prophets” and “apostles”.

So, they have to agree that their church is fasle OR that their “prophets” were not really prophets.

Oh, they might try the tired claim that all those “prophets” were just speaking opinions. But anyone who reads the statements knows they were not spoken as opinions, but as declarations.

So they are back to either agreeing their church is not true or that their prophets were not prophets.

Would you answer if that were your only choices?

 

[LivingWaters7]

It really would be nice if an LDS poster would help us out here. I don’t think any of us can answer the question you pose. To me, the failure to excavate Cumorah reveals the measure of faith they have in the credibility of their founder. So why do they continue? Like I said, this is something a non-Mormon just cannot answer.

From what I understand, Mormon scholars tend to believe that the Hill Cumorah in New York is not “the” Hill Cumorah as found in the Book of Mormon. Remember, Mormon scholars tend to believe that the Book of Mormon events took place in Mesoamerica, and because of this, they believe that Moroni could have walked from Mesoamerica to New York and deposited the gold plates there. They also don’t believe that the geographical descriptions of the area surrounding Hill Cumorah in the Book of Mormon don’t match the upstate NY one, so it couldn’t be it (remembering that they subscribe to the Book of Mormon being actual history describing actual places and events).

So, LDS subscribing to this view wouldn’t think of excavating the New York Hill Cumorah because they don’t expect to find anything there, since the “real” one is in Mesoamerica.

As to the description of the Hill opening up and Smith and Cowdery being able to see various artifacts in the Hill, those that hold to this view would say that that was a visionary experience.

So, the next question would be, where is the real Hill Cumorah? Well…

It also seems that those that subscribe to this view would view the statements by church leaders pointing to NY Cumorah=BoM Cumorah as being their [uninspired] opinions…

For more info:

maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=4&num=1&id=98
en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Archaeology/Hill_Cumorah
fairblog.org/2008/02/12/the-two-cumorah-theory%E2%80%9D/

 

[SteveVH]

they can’t answer.

either they have to agree with us, or tell us Cumorah is not THE Cumorah, thereby contradicting THE “prophet” and several other “prophets” and “apostles”.

So, they have to agree that their church is fasle OR that their “prophets” were not really prophets.

Oh, they might try the tired claim that all those “prophets” were just speaking opinions. But anyone who reads the statements knows they were not spoken as opinions, but as declarations.

So they are back to either agreeing their church is not true or that their prophets were not prophets.

Would you answer if that were your only choices?

I understand very well the pickle in which they find themselves. No, I would not answer because there is no credible answer. I would just leave, like you did.

 

[TexanKnight]

From what I understand, Mormon scholars tend to believe that the Hill Cumorah in New York is not “the” Hill Cumorah as found in the Book of Mormon. Remember, Mormon scholars tend to believe that the Book of Mormon events took place in Mesoamerica, and because of this, they believe that Moroni could have walked from Mesoamerica to New York and deposited the gold plates there. They also don’t believe that the geographical descriptions of the area surrounding Hill Cumorah in the Book of Mormon don’t match the upstate NY one, so it couldn’t be it (remembering that they subscribe to the Book of Mormon being actual history describing actual places and events).

So, LDS subscribing to this view wouldn’t think of excavating the New York Hill Cumorah because they don’t expect to find anything there, since the “real” one is in Mesoamerica.

As to the description of the Hill opening up and Smith and Cowdery being able to see various artifacts in the Hill, those that hold to this view would say that that was a visionary experience.

So, the next question would be, where is the real Hill Cumorah? Well…

It also seems that those that subscribe to this view would view the statements by church leaders pointing to NY Cumorah=BoM Cumorah as being their [uninspired] opinions…

For more info:

maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=4&num=1&id=98
en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Archaeology/Hill_Cumorah
fairblog.org/2008/02/12/the-two-cumorah-theory%E2%80%9D/

that might work if js had not DEFINITIVELY stated it was THE Cumorah and other prophets and apostles had not agreed and such as definitively said it.

but to say scholars have not stated it is NOT the Cumorah only after it became clear there was no evidence to support js is disingenuous at best…

 

[SteveVH]

From what I understand, Mormon scholars tend to believe that the Hill Cumorah in New York is not “the” Hill Cumorah as found in the Book of Mormon.

Then they must believe that the following, already quoted by TK, is false:

“Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history…” (Joseph Fielding Smith - Mormon prophet, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, p.232-43.)

If what is said here is false, according to “Mormon scholars”, what does that say about the credibility of “Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others…”?

Remember, Mormon scholars tend to believe that the Book of Mormon events took place in Mesoamerica, and because of this, they believe that Moroni could have walked from Mesoamerica to New York and deposited the gold plates there. They also don’t believe that the geographical descriptions of the area surrounding Hill Cumorah in the Book of Mormon don’t match the upstate NY one, so it couldn’t be it (remembering that they subscribe to the Book of Mormon being actual history describing actual places and events).

So, we must conclude that Mormon scholars disagree with the statements of their so-called prophets.