Cumorah

[gracepoole]

Stephen168, thank you! You’ve made it easy for folks to go between both threads and see my interest in respectful dialogue that doesn’t focus on disparaging one another. I’m indebted!

You can the approach of constantly complaining about a poster you can ignore?

My approach is annoying, perhaps…

and the Pope said to be annoying.

If you dislike my posts, block me…deal?

Aw, I don’t dislike you or your posts. I do assume that you want to win people over to the one, true faith. Like marketers or writers or producers, etc., we must consider how we deliver the message as much as we consider the message itself. Giving non-Catholics a pointed finger and a scowl won’t, I don’t think, do much to encourage real engagement with the Church. For what it’s worth, had you pointed your finger and scowl at me, I likely wouldn’t have said anything. I just don’t like to see those who aren’t Catholic being blamed for the failings of all members of their faiths.

In terms of the larger conversation, I still find it strange that archaeological evidence is required of those who believe individual religious experience has given them their faith. I live about 20 minutes from Cumorah and I’ve visited many times. I can’t begin to know how one would accept LDS teachings, as they don’t speak of logic to me. But logic isn’t the only tool for locating faith. How does one say to someone else who believes she’s had a religious encounter that’s led her to Mormonism, “No, you didn’t”?

 

[Stephen168]

Stephen168, thank you! You’ve made it easy for folks to go between both threads and see my interest in respectful dialogue that doesn’t focus on disparaging one another. I’m indebted!

Or he showed your hypocrisy.

In terms of the larger conversation,

Yes, lets get back to the conversation

I still find it strange that archaeological evidence is required of those who believe individual religious experience has given them their faith.

Faith and reason are never in conflict. See Posts 102,103, 104

I live about 20 minutes from Cumorah and I’ve visited many times. I can’t begin to know how one would accept LDS teachings, as they don’t speak of logic to me. But logic isn’t the only tool for locating faith. How does one say to someone else who believes she’s had a religious encounter that’s led her to Mormonism, “No, you didn’t”?

One can have ‘feelings’ about something but it may still conflict with reason (history, science, logic). Some people ‘feel’ good about abortion, Joseph Smith, same-sex marriage, or the Book of Mormon, but reason proves their ‘feelings’ are irrational. That is how we know they did not have a ‘religious encounter.’

 

[Kelfa28]

Mormons just believe, and is what they preach as they send tens of thousands of teenage boys to deliver the message: believe Joseph Smith.

Believe me. I’ve been down this rabbit hole to the point where I couldn’t look my Mormon relatives in the face without thinking they were the most gullible people that ever lived. They just believe. Period. The reason they believe, is: they believe. I think that could be the Mormon creed: “I believe, therefore, what I believe is truth, therefore, I believe what I believe is truth, which is what I believe.”

You’ll never get out of this believe-loop with a Mormon.Never. Everything in the world around them, including history, is bent to what wants to be believed.History is belief and belief is history. Archaeology, as tool for understanding human history, falls under the belief bending and is mangled under “Mormon Scholarship”.

If you poke this too much on a Mormon forum, the result is what you have experienced. You are now officially, an anti-Mormon, all because you endorse critical thinking.

As sad and frightening as this is…it couldn’t be more true.

I had a Mormon friend I met while in Tech school for the Air Force. This describes his faith in Mormonism perfectly.
He even said he understood that people wouldn’t agree with him and may have decent arguments against his beliefs. But that wouldn’t change how he felt.

I met him before I converted to Catholicism and was still trying to find my way home. His sentiments about Mormonism just dumbfounded me.

History proves that this faith is just a crock. But they still believe.

I highly doubt they’d lose even a minority of their followers even if they did excavate Cumorah and proved it was a farce and a lie.

I knew about the inconsistencies regarding the so-called Book of Abraham. I had no idea about Cumorah until I came here.

Well, at least I know what to bring up if and when any missionaries show up at my door.

 

[CarolNoel]

Can’t find any LDS posters anywhere right now. Interesting. Unless I missed one somewhere.

 

[gracepoole]

One can have ‘feelings’ about something but it may still conflict with reason (history, science, logic). Some people ‘feel’ good about abortion, Joseph Smith, same-sex marriage, or the Book of Mormon, but reason proves their ‘feelings’ are irrational. That is how we know they did not have a ‘religious encounter.’

A religious encounter is not just a “feeling.” Mormons believe in personal revelation – God is still revealing Himself. If one has what she describes as a personal revelation, how is it possible for anyone aside from God to say she’s wrong? When St. Faustina first announced that she was having visions of Christ and conversing with Him, should those around her have claimed she was just having a “feeling”?

 

[TexanKnight]

Stephen168, thank you! You’ve made it easy for folks to go between both threads and see my interest in respectful dialogue that doesn’t focus on disparaging one another. I’m indebted!

Aw, I don’t dislike you or your posts. I do assume that you want to win people over to the one, true faith. Like marketers or writers or producers, etc., we must consider how we deliver the message as much as we consider the message itself. Giving non-Catholics a pointed finger and a scowl won’t, I don’t think, do much to encourage real engagement with the Church. For what it’s worth, had you pointed your finger and scowl at me, I likely wouldn’t have said anything. I just don’t like to see those who aren’t Catholic being blamed for the failings of all members of their faiths.

In terms of the larger conversation, I still find it strange that archaeological evidence is required of those who believe individual religious experience has given them their faith. I live about 20 minutes from Cumorah and I’ve visited many times. I can’t begin to know how one would accept LDS teachings, as they don’t speak of logic to me. But logic isn’t the only tool for locating faith. How does one say to someone else who believes she’s had a religious encounter that’s led her to Mormonism, “No, you didn’t”?

I am not here to win people to the faith. I am here to expose the lds church for what it is. I am here to correct the errors that Mormons post. As a former Mormon (including lds missionary, member of bishopric, and member of elder’s quorum presidency) I studied a lot as a member. I know what was taught, and what I was taught to teach. I am here to shine the light on the false teachings.

 

[gracepoole]

I am not here to win people to the faith. I am here to expose the lds church for what it is. I am here to correct the errors that Mormons post. As a former Mormon (including lds missionary, member of bishopric, and member of elder’s quorum presidency) I studied a lot as a member. I know what was taught, and what I was taught to teach. I am here to shine the light on the false teachings.

Accepted. (But as Catholics, are we not always meant to be evangelizing?)

 

[Stephen168]

A religious encounter is not just a “feeling.”

I know; like I said, it is supported by reason.

Mormons believe in personal revelation – God is still revealing Himself. If one has what she describes as a personal revelation, how is it possible for anyone aside from God to say she’s wrong? When St. Faustina first announced that she was having visions of Christ and conversing with Him, should those around her have claimed she was just having a “feeling”?

Like I said people believe lots of things but supporting abortion, Joseph Smith, same-sex marriage, or the Book of Mormon are irrational.

 

[Stephen168]

Accepted. (But as Catholics, are we not always meant to be evangelizing?)

As Catholics we are meant to evangelize the truth of Catholic teaching, not just some of them; or Mormon teaching. Supporting abortion, Joseph Smith, same-sex marriage, or the Book of Mormon are irrational.

 

[gracepoole]

A religious encounter is not just a “feeling.” Mormons believe in personal revelation – God is still revealing Himself. If one has what she describes as a personal revelation, how is it possible for anyone aside from God to say she’s wrong? When St. Faustina first announced that she was having visions of Christ and conversing with Him, should those around her have claimed she was just having a “feeling”?

Like I said people believe lots of things but supporting abortion, Joseph Smith, same-sex marriage, or the Book of Mormon are irrational.

This doesn’t respond to the question. I asked about personal revelation – current Mormons believe they’re having direct encounters with God. How can I possibly and indisputably claim they’re not? Believing in transubstantiation requires a leap of faith, does it not? There are those who claim it’s hooey – are they justified in doing so because transubstantiation isn’t rational?

 

[Stephen168]

This doesn’t respond to the question. I asked about personal revelation – current Mormons believe they’re having direct encounters with God. How can I possibly and indisputably claim they’re not? Believing in transubstantiation requires a leap of faith, does it not? There are those who claim it’s hooey – are they justified in doing so because transubstantiation isn’t rational?

if you were Catholic, you would know that transubstantiation is rational and abortion, Joseph Smith, same-sex marriage, or the Book of Mormon are irrational. Therefore Mormonism is an invention of Joseph Smith.

 

[gracepoole]

if you were Catholic, you would know that transubstantiation is rational and abortion, Joseph Smith, same-sex marriage, or the Book of Mormon are irrational. Therefore Mormonism is an invention of Joseph Smith.

And if I were Mormon, I would know that transubstantiation is irrational. See what I’m getting at here?

 

[Stephen168]

And if I were Mormon, I would know that transubstantiation is irrational. See what I’m getting at here?

You ‘feel’ it is irrational but you would not know it is because you would not understand it; just like not understanding the Catholic teaching on same-sex marriage or abortion. The Book of Mormon is not what Joseph Smith claimed it to be; therefore Joseph Smith lied. Believing he restored Christianity is irrational.

 

[Porknpie]

if you were Catholic, you would know that transubstantiation is rational and abortion, Joseph Smith, same-sex marriage, or the Book of Mormon are irrational. Therefore Mormonism is an invention of Joseph Smith.

Stephen,

Again I would add that we as Catholic use faith and reason, reason that includes using the sciences to help us understand the essence of God. Regarding Mormonism in particular, multiple sciences have shown it to be false:

• Archeology : no remains of anything on Hill Cumorah. No other evidence of any “great civilizations” in the Americas (not just USA) between 600 bc and 400 ad. If fact, there is no evidence at all of any settlement in anyway from a people migrating from Jerusalem to the america’s during this time period.
• Genetic Science : LDS believe’s that the American Indians we’re the descendents of a great civilization that came from Jerusalem. Genetics has proven that the Native American’s have genetic roots from Asia, not the Middle East.
• Historical Science : there was never an apostasy in the Catholic Church, let alone a great apostasy. Scripture records that the Church membership grew quickly, in great numbers, guided by the Holy Spirit to all Truth. No reason to restore anything.
• HIstorical Science : the Book of Abraham is simply an Egyptian funeral document … and not at all what Joseph Smith said in his translation from the papyri.

I’m sure there is more…

 

[gracepoole]

You ‘feel’ it is irrational but you would not know it is because you would not understand it; just like not understanding the Catholic teaching on same-sex marriage or abortion. The Book of Mormon is not what Joseph Smith claimed it to be; therefore Joseph Smith lied. Believing he restored Christianity is irrational.

First, I’m not sure why you’re bringing abortion and gay marriage into this conversation, since the Church of LDS and the RCC agree on those issues. You’ve stated, “you would not understand it; just like not understanding the Catholic teaching on same-sex marriage or abortion.” So your point in raising these issues is to make some comment on me?

Second, I’m guessing that Mormons make the same claim you’ve made: you don’t know that personal revelation is rational because you don’t understand it.

 

[Porknpie]

And if I were Mormon, I would know that transubstantiation is irrational. See what I’m getting at here?

Perhaps, but applying reason, theology and philosophy one can arrive at an understanding that it is not irrational.

 

[gracepoole]

Perhaps, but applying reason, theology and philosophy one can arrive at an understanding that it is not irrational.

Reason and philosophy tell us that bread and wine that still looks like bread and wine are really body and blood?

 

[Stephen168]

First, I’m not sure why you’re bringing abortion and gay marriage into this conversation, since the Church of LDS and the RCC agree on those issues. You’ve stated, “you would not understand it; just like not understanding the Catholic teaching on same-sex marriage or abortion.” So your point in raising these issues is to make some comment on me?

They are irrational and Mormonism is slowly embracing them, because they do not reason; they ‘feel.’

Second, I’m guessing that Mormons make the same claim you’ve made: you don’t know that personal revelation is rational because you don’t understand it.

Mormons make many claims that are wrong, their religion is based on irrational claims.

 

[Stephen168]

Reason and philosophy tell us that bread and wine that still looks like bread and wine are really body and blood?

How does philosophy tell us that.

 

[Stephen168]

Perhaps, but applying reason, theology and philosophy one can arrive at an understanding that it is not irrational.

Exactly:thumbsup: