Curious about contemplative prayer

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Julia_Mae said:
No, I’m not. Read the book again.
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You observed it was a “distinctly feminine” style of writing. I took that to mean it was part of why you thought it was feminine writing. Sorry about that. :o

That’s a great idea, though. I think I will read the book again. Right now I’m reading “Fire Within” so I think I’ll put it in queue. 👍

Alan
 
+JMJ+

I am now finding that contemplative prayer is more or less the third phase of a love affair, which I guess can be allegorized to courting and clothing.

When you find someone to court or find yourself being courted, you dress yourself up. You clean up, find the best clothes you can find, make yourself look good and neat, and make your actions proper.

When the courting advances to the next stage, you are given gifts of jewelry and clothing; you learn from the other person what he or she likes about your mannerisms and dress, and therefore you wear what you were given, and groom yourself as you know he or she likes it.

But when you get to the final stage of courting—marriage and the honeymoon bed—you strip yourselves of all clothing, including what was given to you before, even the way of thinking and acting that the other loves, because all of these get in the way of wearing each other like clothing, in an intimacy that brings underclothings to shame.

And so it is with the stages of vocal prayer, meditation, and contemplative prayer. And I can see I am now going to this final stage of prayer with my discovery of The Cloud of Unknowing and The Book of Privy Counsel, which are written by the same anonymous author (I am reading this translation, and I have to say its ease of reading and the scholarly work apparent in it are superb; I highly recommend this version of the books).
 
Julia_Mae said:
Cloud teaches and describes precisely the infused state of being oned with God. Exactly what Teresa and John of the Cross speak of. If you dispute that, please follow with quotes. Please use an edition online for all here to access.
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No, this is not infused prayer in the manner of passive recollection, prayer of quiet, prayer of union etc.

Think about it for a minute 🙂

The author of The Cloud probably uses the term “contemplation” a hundred or more times in his work. And he uses that word in the context of specific practices he wants his student to “do.” And we all know we can’t “do” infused contemplation. So then what in the world is he talking about?🙂

He is teaching a method of mono-syllabic prayer that is a variation of what other authors describe as ACTIVE recollection. This is distinctly non-infused in Carmelite teaching. And in it’s higher form, the mono-syllabic prayer gives way to what he calls the “naked intent” … an intuitive gaze others describe as the prayer of simplicity. While this state is exalted in it’s own right, it too is not infused.

In Carmelite teaching, “infused” has a specific meaning … the temporary suspension of the faculties (intellect, will and memory). Again, not what the author of The Cloud is talking about at all. Modern day authors (ie. Susan Muto) put the active recollection/prayer of simplicity prayer forms like The Cloud in the 3rd mansions of St. Teresa’s terminology of Interior Castle. Infused prayer, of course, begins with the 4th mansions.

That having been said, The Cloud IS very Carmelite in many respects … some call it St. John of the Cross before St. John of the Cross. The quieting of the understanding that the author teaches (the cloud of forgetting) forshadows St. John’s teaching on the purification of the memory in Book 3 of The Ascent. This is considered a key part of the ACTIVE night of spirit … again not a passive activity at all. Why? Because it is something we set out on our own to “do” … it is not, in this case, something that God is doing in us.

Dave 🙂
 
nuntym said:
And so it is with the stages of vocal prayer, meditation, and contemplative prayer.
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That is an excellent comparison. My SD told me something similar. He likened the stages of Lectio to the stages of marriage. It starts off surface, then finally becomes contemplative when each others’ presence is all they need. Like my parents would sit together in the same room for hours a day, not speaking to one another, each with their own thing they paid attention to but very aware of each others’ presence.
 
AlanFromWichita said:
You observed it was a “distinctly feminine” style of writing. I took that to mean it was part of why you thought it was feminine writing. Sorry about that. :o
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Look at the inagery she uses and the examples from life, less than the style, though the tonne is a woman’s rather than a man’s, too. In fact, it is a woman writing for women.
 
Julia_Mae said:
Look at the inagery she uses and the examples from life, less than the style, though the tonne is a woman’s rather than a man’s, too. In fact, it is a woman writing for women.
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OK. I didn’t understand because I didn’t know the meaning of “style” in the context of writers.
 
DBT said:
No, this is not infused prayer in the manner of passive recollection, prayer of quiet, prayer of union etc.

Think about it for a minute 🙂

The author of The Cloud probably uses the term “contemplation” a hundred or more times in his work. And he uses that word in the context of specific practices he wants his student to “do.” And we all know we can’t “do” infused contemplation. So then what in the world is he talking about?🙂
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She is talking about what is done to be open to the contemplative experience. This repetition of a word is her method of clearing her mind, and a very tiny part of the work. When you live in a cell and pass a few pages through a window to those who come to seek your wisdom. you have to hand them a fairly simple starting place. All the rest and most especially the description of the relationship with God in the experience of contemplation, is just what, much later, Teresa described.

People now say they “do contemplative prayer.” We all understand what we mean even if we aren’t doing. Nitpicking the language of a revered catholic mystic 600 years after her writing in what is almost another language, in order to throw this great work into some dim light, strikes me as an exercise is repression.

Look, God sends us what works for us if we ask. Cloud works for some, Teresa works for others. There has never been a hint of doubt cast on this work by anyone with the education, experience and authority to do so in the Church.

I’m done. God will lead people where they need to go.
 
Julia_Mae said:
Look at the inagery she uses and the examples from life, less than the style, though the tonne is a woman’s rather than a man’s, too. In fact, it is a woman writing for women.
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Not sure why I’m jumping down this rabbit hole, but …

… in matters like this we see what we want to see. I see a distinctly masculine voice … master instructing student. More than that, with the book of Privy Counseling, I see a crotchety old man … grown a bit impatient and gruff by the passing of time and the supposed weakness of his student who should know better by now. 🙂

Not important in the scheme of things … the content of the teaching is what matters.

Dave 🙂
 
AlanFromWichita said:
OK. I didn’t understand because I didn’t know the meaning of “style” in the context of writers.
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Well, I was using it fairly loosely as I really think that the identity of the writer is off-topic. However, before I go, I will say there are distinct similarities between the style, in a more classic writer’s “voice” sense, and the known writings of Julian of Norwich.
 
DBT said:
Not sure why I’m jumping down this rabbit hole, but …

… in matters like this we see what we want to see.
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Unless we don’t because we are professional writers and understand a lot more about style than most and never had any vested interest whatsoever in the gender of the author. Speak for yourself only, please.
 
Julia_Mae said:
is just what, much later, Teresa described.
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Sorry, no … at least in the context of infused contemplation. Active recollection I’m in total agreement. For what it’s worth, it’s my elected position to teach these matters to Carmelites. Usually I try a steer clear of these type of discussions for there is much confusion, though good intentions among posters. I felt it my duty, though, to speak up in this particular case.

Dave
 
Julia_Mae said:
Oh, I see what you are doing. Well, the topic of this thread, contemplative prayer leads to a state of Grace known as contemplation. It’s very specific.

You can use the word as a verb, “to contemplate” in terms of Lectio Divina or lotus blossoms, I suppose, or the Divine Mercy image. People call this “contemplation of…” but introducing it ITT, I think, just muddies the water for anyone wanting to understand contemplative prayer, during which, ironically, we do not contemplate at all.
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What I have written is very germaine to the the thread. I am being very specific about the various kinds of contemplation and the various uses of Catholic writers of the term Contemplation (no lotus blossoms intended here…though I suppose a Christian can contemplate the beauty of such too :))

Distinguishing can rather tend to bring clarity not muddy water.

What muddies the water in the topic of contemplation is when it is not realized that the term is used in the Catholic Church --in Catholic Theology and Philosophy and Spiritual theology and spiritual writers use the term Contemplation in various ways. And in terms of Spiritual Theology and spiritual writers one can find that Contemplation is of two basic kinds: Acquired Contemplation and Infused Contemplation.

(example of acquired contemplation is the prayer of simplicity --example of infused contemplation is prayer of the quiet (to use a St. Theresa term).

During contemplative prayer one can yes --contemplate.
 
And, it should be noted, St. Teresa herself used these terms and made the distinctions posters are making. For anyone interested, read Chapters 28-30 of Way of Perfection to see.

Here St. Teresa makes explicit reference to active recollection … a method of “slowing down the mind” and “entering within” (her words) that she learned in her youth from Osuna. And she is an advocate of this active recollection … repeatedly encouraging her readers to “do” this way of prayer at every possible chance … not altogether different from the encouragement the author of The Cloud gives I might add.

Most important, she counsels: “this recollection is not something supernatural, but that it is something we can desire and achieve ourselves (Ch 29).” Her style of active recollection would probably today be called the prayer of the heart … whereas The Cloud is perhaps more prayer of simplicity. Nevertheless, both are considered non-infused prayer … acquired contemplation as discussed in this thread.

She then proceeds to discuss the transition to passive recollection that may, God willing, flow from the active. Then she begins a longer discourse on the prayer of quiet … where we truly begin to enter the realm of the infused, albeit on a partial, incomplete basis (in that only the will and not intellect and memory are held captive.)

These distinctions are crucial to understanding what the Carmelites mean by contemplation … and without a careful eye (or perhaps more important, practical experience) it could easily be lost on readers.

Active recollection … passive recollection (St. Teresa). Active nights … passive nights (St. John). These concepts are central to Carmelite spirituality.

Dave:)
 
Maristella said:
I don’t know if the OP is still around, but thought I’d pass along this link. Fr. Dubay gave a 13-part Contemplation series on EWTN, and the talks are available as free audio downloads at the link below. This series is a must-listen for those interested in learning about contemplation, IMO.

ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=7103&T1=contemplation
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Thank you very much for the link, I’ll definitely be taking a listen for it.

This thread took off a lot faster than I thought. I started it via my iphone while at work on some down time and wasn’t able to follow it as closely as I wanted to.

:D:D:D
 
NOTE:

There has been far too much chatter about centering prayer lately, and especially in this thread, despite several people mentioning it was a banned topic. I have removed over 30 posts from this thread and will remove the entire thread if it continues, as well as suspending or banning all who participate.

Klara
 
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