Currently Questioning Religious Beliefs

[simpleas]

You are very welcome, Simpleas. If I am educated, (it literally means “led out of”–presumably ignorance,) it is through necessity of understanding myself as a phenomenon and as an awareness function. I hold with Einstein and Picasso that all children are geniuses, only to have it overlayed by consensus view made necessary by local ways of dealing with things. Those ways are not necessarily correct, and because they are local and survival oriented, they have trouble when they meet.*

Yes, I like Fr. Roher, having communicated with him on a matter relative to this discussion some years ago. You might then enjoy this book.

Yes, I was brought up Catholic. I was very active as such until and incident in my lifel literally pulled the rug out from every perception I had thought true about myself and the world. Nothing changed, and yet my world was destroyed and rebuilt in a flash. I’ve been exploring the majesty of that newness ever since!

Part of that is a radically different understanding of what Jesus was about, as well as a different understanding of the “Christ.” The way you phrased the question, from here, it goes by the point.

Thanks for your kind note.

Thanks, yeah Fr R says something about an event in ones life that literally can change a person, and it can feel like one is losing faith, but if acknowledged and journeyed through one can progress.

I can get that about our saying we are this or we are that, I’ve often thought are we really anything at all, no we are just humans trying to find the inner “person”.

 

[Sochi]

Thanks, yeah Fr R says something about an event in ones life that literally can change a person, and it can feel like one is losing faith, but if acknowledged and journeyed through one can progress.

Yes, I guess that is a way of saying it innocuously. In the Church that seems to be sometimes necessary. But that is another story.

I can get that about our saying we are this or we are that, I’ve often thought are we really anything at all, no we are just humans trying to find the inner “person”.

A human trying to find an inner person is going in circles. But if you allow that that which you are looking for is what is doing the looking? That might help. While incertitude is taken as doubt by many and fled from, it is also a door, if you are stable to begin with and courageous. Read more from Fr.

 

[shelby_sun]

Thanks, yeah Fr R says something about an event in ones life that literally can change a person, and it can feel like one is losing faith, but if acknowledged and journeyed through one can progress.

I can get that about our saying we are this or we are that, I’ve often thought are we really anything at all, no we are just humans trying to find the inner “person”.

I agree with you here. Many think they are further along than others because they “know” everything the Church teaches, when many just use it as a way to judge others. That is one thing Pope Francis has tried to change, yet people are still doing it and calling it “teaching” or “evangelizing”. One needs to take care of his own sinful life, which is a daily task.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I agree with you here. Many think they are further along than others because they “know” everything the Church teaches, when many just use it as a way to judge others. That is one thing Pope Francis has tried to change, yet people are still doing it and calling it “teaching” or “evangelizing”. One needs to take care of his own sinful life, which is a daily task.

Above all, we should take out the beam in our own eye before we seek to remove the mote from another’s eye.

But we can still do both. Those who are judgmental without having first judged themselves are the same hypocrites Jesus was talking about.

But Jesus never said we should not admonish others to do good when we see them doing evil. Pope Francis has thrown at least one European priest out of the priesthood and out of the Church, as I understand it. The priest was first admonished by Benedict XVI. Then he was judged harshly by Pope Francis.

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2013/09/27/pope-francis-excommunicates-australian-priest/

I like this quote from Dr. Scott Peck, the late psychiatrist, concerning those who rail against those inclined to judge or admonish.

“A predominant characteristic, however, of the behavior of those I call evil is scapegoating. Because in their hearts they consider themselves above reproach, they must lash out at anyone who does reproach them. They sacrifice others to preserve their self-image of perfection.”

And then there are others:

"Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart, but reprove him openly, lest thou incur sin through him” (Leviticus 19:17).

“He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins” (James 5:20).

Jesus - “If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him: and if he do penance, forgive him” (Luke 17:3).

“Them that sin reprove before all: that the rest also may have fear” (1 Timothy 5:20).

“Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine” (2 Timothy 4:2).

“Brethren, and if a man be overtaken in any fault, you, who are spiritual, instruct such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted” (Galatians 6:1).

“The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that is wise hearkeneth unto counsels” (Proverbs 12:15).

 

[simpleas]

Yes, I guess that is a way of saying it innocuously. In the Church that seems to be sometimes necessary. But that is another story.

A human trying to find an inner person is going in circles. But if you allow that that which you are looking for is what is doing the looking? That might help. While incertitude is taken as doubt by many and fled from, it is also a door, if you are stable to begin with and courageous. Read more from Fr.

I have read two of his books, so i’m learning…

I find it interesting when he talks of the shadow self, and how we can be hypocrites to ourselves, we act the way we have been told/conditioned to and it really might not be us, so it can be hard to be who we actually are, and not who we are told to be.

We can go around in circles, yet hopefully we’ll go through the “door”

 

[ynotzap]

Throughout my life, I have been a faithful and devout Catholic. However, for the past few months, I have been questioning my beliefs. I am more leaning towards Agnosticism now. By nature, I like the scientific process, and have found many theories that explain the universe in a way that does not require religion. I feel like I am losing my belief in a higher power. Not necessarily going against it, but rather remaining neutral on the existence of God(s).

At times, I feel like my religious beliefs may inhibit certain scientific theories and social progress (although this by no means affects my beliefs in general).

So why am I here? I’ve heard a lot of irreligious commentary on the subject. But before I make up my mind, I want some members of the Catholic community to offer me some insight. Are there any thoughts? Thank you.

Dear Joko: Your position is not unique I find that many Catholics are not well informed about their faith. They follow a formal way into the faith, and because they do, it is automatically assumed they are converted. Giving people knowledge of the Faith does not mean they appropriate that knowledge unto themselves. The truth is that unless they have an encounter with Jesus Christ, and turn to Him personally, in humility and accept Him for who He is, God-man, Savior, Redeemer and give themselves over to Him and follow His teachings they are not converted. Jesus is the Gate, and the Way, anybody that tries to enter by another way, is a thief and brigand. Faith can not be passed on, it is a divine gift from God. When you turn to Jesus in sincerity, He bestows His sanctifying Spirit upon you making you an adopted son of God. The truths of the faith can be passed on. Only your encounter will make it possible to assimilate those truths, The Sacraments are legitimate, true, with their corresponding graces, but these graces are not fully released until Jesus is glorified. The same thing happened to the Apostles Jesus had to ascend into Heaven and take His rightful place. He stated that this had to take place first in order to bestow His Spirit upon the Apostles. St. Paul speaks about the pre-eminence of Jesus surpassing everything and that they were dung compared to the Knowledge of Jesus. The same has to happen in the soul of every Christian. It’s good to question your faith in order to understand and be enlightened, not to leave it. Have you had such and encounter? The encounter is such that you would never want to leave It is called the Grace of conversion, this is why evangelization is so important, telling of the “Good News” that Jesus, the Son of God came to bring us back to the Father, the Savior of mankind. With out this “Gift” the blind will lead the blind and will fall into the pit. Human reason can lead you to the door, but Jesus has to open it.

 

[simpleas]

I agree with you here. Many think they are further along than others because they “know” everything the Church teaches, when many just use it as a way to judge others. That is one thing Pope Francis has tried to change, yet people are still doing it and calling it “teaching” or “evangelizing”. One needs to take care of his own sinful life, which is a daily task.

Yes I not long ago thought I wasn’t as “catholic” as others because they knew much more than I, so to me, they were closer to God than I was…
But I’ve come to realise its our own personal relationship with God that counts and not having more knowledge than anyone else.

 

[Sochi]

I have read two of his books, so i’m learning…

I find it interesting when he talks of the shadow self, and how we can be hypocrites to ourselves, we act the way we have been told/conditioned to and it really might not be us, so it can be hard to be who we actually are, and not who we are told to be.

We can go around in circles, yet hopefully we’ll go through the “door”

Yes, you can be a "Gateles Gate crasher!

 

[ynotzap]

Dear Joko, we don’t choose Jesus Christ, He chooses us, God moves first.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

The gospels do not support this.

Oh, please! When Christ said he and the Father were one what do you call that? And didn’t he admit it before the Sanhedrin. " [61] But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said to him: Art thou the Christ the Son of the blessed God? [62] And Jesus said to him: I am. And you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God, and coming with the clouds of heaven. [63] Then the high priest rending his garments, saith: What need we any further witnesses? [64] You have heard the blasphemy. What think you? Who all condemned him to be guilty of death…" Mark 14: 61-64; Luke 22: 66-71

Strike three for the Sophist. All credibility gone.

Linus2nd

 

[Charlemagne_III]

The gospels do not support this.

The Gospel of John: Chapter 1, supporting the divinity of Jesus:

1In the beginning* was the Word,

and the Word was with God,

and the Word was God.a

2He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things came to be through him,

and without him nothing came to be.b
What came to be through him was life,

and this life was the light of the human race;
5 the light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness has not overcome it.

6 A man named John was sent from God.e7He came for testimony, to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him. 8He was not the light, but came to testify to the light. 9The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.

10 He was in the world,

and the world came to be through him,

but the world did not know him.

11 He came to what was his own,

but his own people did not accept him.

12 But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name, 13 who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh
and made his dwelling among us,

and we saw his glory,

the glory as of the Father’s only Son,

full of grace and truth.

*Quod erat demonstrarum. *

 

[shelby_sun]

Above all, we should take out the beam in our own eye before we seek to remove the mote from another’s eye.

But we can still do both. Those who are judgmental without having first judged themselves are the same hypocrites Jesus was talking about.

But Jesus never said we should not admonish others to do good when we see them doing evil. Pope Francis has thrown at least one European priest out of the priesthood and out of the Church, as I understand it. The priest was first admonished by Benedict XVI. Then he was judged harshly by Pope Francis.

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2013/09/27/pope-francis-excommunicates-australian-priest/

I like this quote from Dr. Scott Peck, the late psychiatrist, concerning those who rail against those inclined to judge or admonish.

“A predominant characteristic, however, of the behavior of those I call evil is scapegoating. Because in their hearts they consider themselves above reproach, they must lash out at anyone who does reproach them. They sacrifice others to preserve their self-image of perfection.”

And then there are others:

"Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart, but reprove him openly, lest thou incur sin through him” (Leviticus 19:17).

“He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins” (James 5:20).

Jesus - “If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him: and if he do penance, forgive him” (Luke 17:3).

“Them that sin reprove before all: that the rest also may have fear” (1 Timothy 5:20).

“Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine” (2 Timothy 4:2).

“Brethren, and if a man be overtaken in any fault, you, who are spiritual, instruct such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted” (Galatians 6:1).

“The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that is wise hearkeneth unto counsels” (Proverbs 12:15).

Well to Dr. Peck’s quote, that is sometimes true but often not. In my case there are not many people that judge themselves as harshly as a judge myself. When people judge on here people they don’t even know, then I have a hard time with that. Many don’t want to go into their lengthy history to how they came to believe what they do, yet people seem to “know” them.

People also use certain parts of the Bible, ignoring others, to support their judging others. Others who try not to judge are told they are not good Catholics. I simply have to many character flaws myself to even comment others. It really comes down to what you want to focus on in the Bible. I am sure you know what I am talking about so I won’t quote here.

 

[ynotzap]

Yes I not long ago thought I wasn’t as “catholic” as others because they knew much more than I, so to me, they were closer to God than I was…
But I’ve come to realise its our own personal relationship with God that counts and not having more knowledge than anyone else.

Jesus Christ takes us off our "Merry-go-round: and puts on the road call “Straight” Unless we are like children, we will not enter the kingdom of heaven. (not childish) St. John Vianney(1786-1859) called the Cure of Ars, as an instrument of God, was responsible for the conversion of many, yet he couldn’t pass his test to become a priest without the help of another priest. God works with "nothing to make “something” God scatters the the proud in the conceit of their heart. You will find more pride in those who are regarded and highly intelligent, only to find they are far from the truth. You will also find highly intelligent people who are humble closer to the truth. In any case your relationship with Jesus Christ makes all the difference in your life, and salvation, and happiness even here on earth.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Well to Dr. Peck’s quote, that is sometimes true but often not. In my case there are not many people that judge themselves as harshly as a judge myself. When people judge on here people they don’t even know, then I have a hard time with that. Many don’t want to go into their lengthy history to how they came to believe what they do, yet people seem to “know” them.

People also use certain parts of the Bible, ignoring others, to support their judging others. Others who try not to judge are told they are not good Catholics. I simply have to many character flaws myself to even comment others. It really comes down to what you want to focus on in the Bible. I am sure you know what I am talking about so I won’t quote here.

It’s difficult to answer this post because it assumes facts not in evidence. Which Catholics are you calling judgmental, and what sins or errors are they judging?

What I find more often is that Catholics try to correct each other’s misconceptions about orthodox Catholic views. I think you’d agree that there is a lot of discord going on in the Church about what is authentic Catholic teaching. Those who are in error get admonished for their errors and feel they are being persecuted, when they are really being admonished to know and believe correctly what the Church teaches through the Catechism and the Councils. Saint Paul fought a constant battle with the various Christian communities admonishing them to stay true to what he had told them about the teachings of Christ. We have the same problem today. There is no getting around it. People tend to believe what they want to believe, and so each heresy or prideful rebellion gets a new dress to show off every time that happens.

What is happening in the Church mirrors in some way what is happening in political society. As democracy prevails, the sentiment gathers strength everywhere that everybody’s opinion is valid to the extent that it has a great number of followers to validate it. But Christianity is not a democracy. It is a monarchy, and Christ is the King. So far as religion is concerned, we need to think less like democrats and more like monarchists. It doesn’t matter how many Catholics want to see legalized same-sex marriage or abortion or women priests. The King has spoken through his Vice Regent in Rome.

Catholics should learn to live with it.

 

[ynotzap]

I feel I need to explain myself, as I might mistakenly be accused of “judgement.” in some of my posts. I do my best to share with the world what my faith has done for me, and what it can do for others. I learned many things over the course of many years. I learned many spiritual truths that I don’t expect many people are even aware of. One truth that seems to border on judgement of another person, is not a judgement of the person, but the judgement of a spiritual condition that I myself have experienced. I learned through a lot of pain, and anguish. Its effects had caused me and my own family and the people I came into contact every day frustration, heartache, and headaches you wouldn’t believe. It seemed I was all alone, almost to the point I felt like God abandoned me.

Over time God caused a series of situation is my life (He set me up for a spiritual healing) that finally with His GRACE I was healed Al the suffering I went through became understandable, all the pieces came together and with that healing I became reconciled with my neighbor. I was judgmental. When I saw corruption, and I saw it from every angle, I blamed those that did those corrupt things, and I became angry at them, because I could see so very much wrong with their actions, for themselves, and others. God showed me that they were not totally accountable, because as my Catholic faith and divine revelation proved for me that there was another force involved in the actions of people, that
force was a spiritual one. it was Satan. He blinded me to the truth, and I blamed everyone else for his evil. God proved to me that I was self-righteous and nobody, and I mean nobody could tell me different. I needed to be humbled, thats why I was frustrated, Satan had such a grip and I didn’t realize it until Jesus showed me. Satan has caused so much suffering to humanity by this condition of “self-righteousness” So when a person is bound by this condition, I can recognize it. In my efforts to point to his condition, and I do it out of Christian love, and spiritual experience so that he may experience his healing by turning to Christ I tell him and let him know that I am not judging him, but I am discerning his spiritual condition If there is any pride in the person, and there usually is to some degree in all of us, there is usually a negative reaction and one of feeling judged on the person’s part. You can bet Satan is opposing you Only Jesus can remove the person’s blindness, nobody can. The person needs "interior enlightenment’ to which is equivalent to some degree the experience that St. Paul had at his conversion. Discernment is not judgement of the person, it is the ability to judge what spirit is active, good, or evil that is affecting the person If we only knew!!! I was frustrated because I was fighting Powers and Principalities, and without Christ I was a real loser and Jesus had to convince me of this truth. This is what all of us are fighting, but we blame our neighbors because we are blind, Jesus remove our blindness so that we may understand (see)

 

[Nogginer]

The gospels do not support this.

Sorry, I know my post was long, but please read it. I did include support for that from the Gospels. By the way, here’s some more:

Then he saith to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither, and see my hands; and bring hither thy hand, and put it into my side; and be not faithless, but believing. [28] Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God. [29] Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed.

(John 20:27-29 Douay-Rheims version)
Thomas says that Jesus is God and Jesus acknowledges that he has “believed” and does not reproach him for it.

Let not your heart be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in me. [2] In my Father’ s house there are many mansions. If not, I would have told you: because I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I shall go, and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will take you to myself; that where I am, you also may be. [4] And whither I go you know, and the way you know. [5] Thomas saith to him: Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

[6] Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me. [7] **If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him, and you have seen him. **[8] Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. [9] Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, shew us the Father? [10] **Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? **The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works.

[11] Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

(John 14:1-12 Douay-Rheims version) emphasis mine.

 

[ngill09]

Sorry, I know my post was long, but please read it. I did include support for that from the Gospels. By the way, here’s some more:

(John 20:27-29 Douay-Rheims version)
Thomas says that Jesus is God and Jesus acknowledges that he has “believed” and does not reproach him for it.

(John 14:1-12 Douay-Rheims version) emphasis mine.

To be fair, in that quote a natural interpretation could be that Jesus is saying that God abides in him, and that he abides in God, so that anyone who has seen Jesus has seen God, who abides in him. This doesn’t mean that Jesus is God.

I do think that, especially in the Gospel of John, Jesus is portrayed as being one with God. Particularly in the opening verses. However, I think everyone is overlooking an important fact: Just because a gospel says Jesus said something, that doesn’t mean he actually said it. The authority of the Gospels stands not on historical veracity but on dogma and faith, neither of which are accepted by the skeptic or questioner.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Throughout my life, I have been a faithful and devout Catholic. However, for the past few months, I have been questioning my beliefs. I am more leaning towards Agnosticism now. By nature, I like the scientific process, and have found many theories that explain the universe in a way that does not require religion. I feel like I am losing my belief in a higher power. Not necessarily going against it, but rather remaining neutral on the existence of God(s).

At times, I feel like my religious beliefs may inhibit certain scientific theories and social progress (although this by no means affects my beliefs in general).

So why am I here? I’ve heard a lot of irreligious commentary on the subject. But before I make up my mind, I want some members of the Catholic community to offer me some insight. Are there any thoughts? Thank you.

Five minutes before the big bang, what existed?

 

[Jerbear]

Throughout my life, I have been a faithful and devout Catholic. However, for the past few months, I have been questioning my beliefs. I am more leaning towards Agnosticism now. By nature, I like the scientific process, and have found many theories that explain the universe in a way that does not require religion. I feel like I am losing my belief in a higher power. Not necessarily going against it, but rather remaining neutral on the existence of God(s).

At times, I feel like my religious beliefs may inhibit certain scientific theories and social progress (although this by no means affects my beliefs in general).

So why am I here? I’ve heard a lot of irreligious commentary on the subject. But before I make up my mind, I want some members of the Catholic community to offer me some insight. Are there any thoughts? Thank you.

I was going through an extremely similar story as you Joko. I was raised a devout Catholic my entire life. When I got older I went into college and graduated with a degree in the sciences. I really started to question my faith and my belief in God altogether and like you said, became neutral to the idea of the existence of God. I began to question why we were here, the whole nine yards. I kept jumping back and forth from atheism to agnosticism, tried my best to come back to the Church but just couldn’t.

As you can see from my profile, I have since affiliated with Deism. I am not telling you this to get you curious about it and want to join, although if you feel like you like the scientific process and feel there is a chance of a Creator I’d recommend at least checking out their general beliefs, but people like you struggle with their faith, as did I. I hope you are able to thoroughly reflect and decide what it is that you feel is right and form your own ideas, whether that is rejoining the Church, joining a different faith, or becoming an atheist. I wish you the best of luck in your reflections and decisions.

 

[Sochi]

Five minutes before the big bang, what existed?

First of all, if you posit “five minutes before” you posit a pre-creation Universe of some kind from which this one came. On the other hand, we understand that time as we think of it is illusory. We really don’t know. It could have been any number of scenarios. Creation by a personal Abrahamic God is the least likely, if that is what you are trying to get at.