Currently Questioning Religious Beliefs

  • Thread starter Thread starter Joko2599
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
You want to look at quantum mechanics to prove whether Jesus is God?
Did our Lord say and do the things in the Gospel?
Is the Gospel true?
You want to look at philosophy and say physics to believe the Gospel?
 
Agreement doesn’t make something true unless we agree it does?
Well, you kind of have to get curious about how you think about things. It is called epistemology. Some application of critical thinking helps. But generally, to some degree in most instances. our sense of what some thing is has much to do with consensus. This is why political figures can be angels or demons, depending on which consensus group you talk to, or with. The same thing can mean vastly different things to different people. Even “the Son of God.”

All it means is that our perceptions are very limited, as are our mental capabilities, especially if untrained. But–because what we think appears to be all there is–we tragically mistake our thought world for all of reality. At least most of us tend to convince ourselves that we have a handle on “reality.” The alternatives seem to be: Take courage and get curious, even if it feels like your wold is falling apart because you are seeing through your own illusion, ie what you take for “yourself.” Or have faith in an off the shelf ideology and feel safe because you think you have an answer. For many, living is a mix of those two to some extent, with most of the courage reserved for a job or a hobby. It rarely extends to looking in the mirror without prejudice. That is about the hardest trick to pull off. It really does endanger your world as you think it is, and all sorts of influences will dissuade you if you try. But it is worth it. At least if you have clarity about yourself you can get to work.
 
Well, you kind of have to get curious about how you think about things. It is called epistemology. Some application of critical thinking helps. But generally, to some degree in most instances. our sense of what some thing is has much to do with consensus. This is why political figures can be angels or demons, depending on which consensus group you talk to, or with. The same thing can mean vastly different things to different people. Even “the Son of God.”

All it means is that our perceptions are very limited, as are our mental capabilities, especially if untrained. But–because what we think appears to be all there is–we tragically mistake our thought world for all of reality. At least most of us tend to convince ourselves that we have a handle on “reality.” The alternatives seem to be: Take courage and get curious, even if it feels like your wold is falling apart because you are seeing through your own illusion, ie what you take for “yourself.” Or have faith in an off the shelf ideology and feel safe because you think you have an answer. For many, living is a mix of those two to some extent, with most of the courage reserved for a job or a hobby. It rarely extends to looking in the mirror without prejudice. That is about the hardest trick to pull off. It really does endanger your world as you think it is, and all sorts of influences will dissuade you if you try. But it is worth it. At least if you have clarity about yourself you can get to work.
Consensus does not make something true. If you do not know how to establish the truth about anything how can you look at anything without prejudice?
 
Consensus does not make something true.
So you agree! That is wonderful.
If you do not know how to establish the truth about anything how can you look at anything without prejudice?
What is the truth about anything? What do you look at that you aren’t prejudiced about? At the very least is not whatever you look at actually your thoughts about it? Your own private experience of it?
 
So you agree! That is wonderful.What is the truth about anything? What do you look at that you aren’t prejudiced about? At the very least is not whatever you look at actually your thoughts about it? Your own private experience of it?
So the truth is out there but we are in here?
 
you are seeing through your own illusion, ie what you take for “yourself.” Or have faith in an off the shelf ideology
Fantastic, you had me hanging on every word, I thought for a moment we would arrive at the meaning of life and mans purpose in the universe. 🙂

Or your limiting yourself to one paradigm for what reason so assuredly?
 
Throughout my life, I have been a faithful and devout Catholic. However, for the past few months, I have been questioning my beliefs. I am more leaning towards Agnosticism now. By nature, I like the scientific process, and have found many theories that explain the universe in a way that does not require religion. I feel like I am losing my belief in a higher power. Not necessarily going against it, but rather remaining neutral on the existence of God(s).

At times, I feel like my religious beliefs may inhibit certain scientific theories and social progress (although this by no means affects my beliefs in general).

So why am I here? I’ve heard a lot of irreligious commentary on the subject. But before I make up my mind, I want some members of the Catholic community to offer me some insight. Are there any thoughts? Thank you.
I too love science. However I don’t think that faith should at all compromise that. Yes, there are theories that can explain how certain things developed and happened. But that doesn’t remove God from the equation. God caused the Big Bang and is the lawmaker for the laws of physics that allowed everything to properly happen.

Your beliefs should not inhibit scientific theories as science can never make a statement on the existence of God. Granted, if you took the entire Bible literally without taking into account different genres and stuff, yes that could be problematic. However there is nothing in standard Church teaching that should interfere with your love of science. And as far as social progress goes, that’s subjective. Nowadays people can lose their jobs just for not agreeing with gay marriage. Some people believe this is a step in the right direction while I strongly disagree. If that belief does not affect their work and they don’t discriminate against employees then there should be no problem as not agreeing with gay marriage is not the same as being “anti-gay” which is what I often see them labeled as (there are even some gay people who don’t support gay marriage. I once saw a gay man state that it was changing the definition of marriage and that he didn’t support it and he was called “just as bad as the bigots” in the comments). Some people also would say that more accessible, on-demand abortions are progress. Just as many people, including most people on here, would argue that it is in no way a good thing. Social progress, while it can be good, is not always undeniably a positive thing.

Remember that there are numerous confirmed and documented miracles as evidence for God’s existence. And just pray, that’ll probably be your best bet but I’m sure that’s been mentioned already.
 
Fantastic, you had me hanging on every word, I thought for a moment we would arrive at the meaning of life and mans purpose in the universe. 🙂

Or your limiting yourself to one paradigm for what reason so assuredly?
I love the taste of sarcasm in the morning! It’s not my job to tell you the imagined meaning of life or man’s alleged purpose in the Universe. But you know that. And Catholicism is quite clear on both of those, if you are happy with that. I’m just interested in how people think about how they think they think about those.

How do you see me limiting myself to one paradigm? That sounds like an interesting observation.

Thanks for the smile! 🙂
 
I love the taste of sarcasm in the morning! It’s not my job to tell you the imagined meaning of life or man’s alleged purpose in the Universe. But you know that. And Catholicism is quite clear on both of those, if you are happy with that. I’m just interested in how people think about how they think they think about those.

How do you see me limiting myself to one paradigm? That sounds like an interesting observation.

Thanks for the smile! 🙂
Its not my job to tell you yours either. Thanks for the compliment, I did enjoy your posts till you reached the utterly boring ending which summed up your position. The conjecture and speculation is faith is off the shelf ideology which of course is your position but you “don’t know” . I think its narrow minded. That’s called “being honest” try not to get upset. Aside from that I thought you were doing splendid.
 
Its not my job to tell you yours either. Thanks for the compliment, I did enjoy your posts till you reached the utterly boring ending which summed up your position. The conjecture and speculation is faith is off the shelf ideology which of course is your position but you “don’t know” . I think its narrow minded. That’s called “being honest” try not to get upset. Aside from that I thought you were doing splendid.
Of course I liked the “splendid” part, who wouldn’t? 🙂 Boring? Yes. Curiosity and inquiry are useful to bore through layers of deposited adamantine faith until something useful is reached. So sometimes what appears as a narrowness of focus is useful. I like that bit, too. I’m glad you are “being honest.” Otherwise exchanges are rather useless. Thanks for that. 🙂
 
What makes you think there is a difference between “in here” and “out there?”
There is no Truth is a contradiction. Truth is out there, that is, we just can’t get at it - the thing-as-it-is-in-itself, according to some. To others the Truth is out there, out of the cave but accessible only to a select few.

Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Truth and the Way. Some believe God shows only a few the Way. But we Catholics believe that all are shown the Way though there is a number that refuse.
 
The truth is 88% of the worlds population believes in a supernatural deity. That’s the Truth. That’s the reality. Whats not the truth or the reality is the narrow paradigm of thinking which in fact I believe is illusion of ego. And its time we open our minds and take a fresh look and admit we don’t know, we do not “know” supernatural good and evil do not exist.

And most astonishing in cognitive therapy is asking one simple abstract question to all patients “What do you think will be going through your mind at the moment of death”

Quickly we can conclude our atheists are not so atheist as one might think.
 
So the illusion of ego resides where exactly? I’m just slightly confused by these oh so bold assertions as to suggest the known, when clearly you do not know? Wait, wait, could it possibly be this blocks our connection with the spiritual depths?:eek:

Perhaps Sochi will be our test model and we can monitor his daily prayer recitation and see how this illusion develops into the apparent reality? 😃
 
There is no Truth is a contradiction.
Of curse not
Truth is out there, that is, we just can’t get at it - the thing-as-it-is-in-itself, according to some.
So it would seem, that the Truth is “out there.” But do you experience it “out there?” Are you “out there” when you are thinking about the building on the hill, or hearing an orchestra? When have you ever been “out there?” When have you ever experienced a “thing- as-it-is-in-itself?” Or have you only experienced your own sense testimony about what is only an impression? Do you not always ans only experience what is labeled “out there” as an “in here” experience?
To others the Truth is out there, out of the cave but accessible only to a select few
Yes, so what then is the “cave,” and who are the select few? Why and how are they select?
Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Truth and the Way. Some believe God shows only a few the Way. But we Catholics believe that all are shown the Way though there is a number that refuse.
Yes, that is one way of seeing it, but just to say it is to say “I see a shadow dancing on the wall of the cave.” And yes, I am quite aware of what Catholics believe, having been once for so many decades. All I am trying to point to is that we don’t understand the actual nature of the believer. I’m saying that the dynamics operate independently and before the contents of the belief, if you will. And to understand what “Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Truth and the Way” might functionally mean, we might do well to understand the perceptual mechanics of the believer. One way to do that is to ask how we perceive ourselves. Doing that can lead to a different understanding of self and reality. Then there might be competent basis for assessing a belief and its subtle meaning. Even in the Bible it is clear that parables have at least three levels of meaning. Is it possible that people only have one? And yes, I am about anything but refusal!
 
The truth is 88% of the worlds population believes in a supernatural deity. That’s the Truth. That’s the reality.
Yes, it is a statistic. But as opus said: “Science does not prove that anything is true. Neither does mathematics.” And he also said “Agreement doesn’t make something true unless we agree it does?” Well, consensus at least seems to give groups of us a common way to behave. Way most of us stop at a red light if we are driving. And that works for world views as well, yes? You can supply many examples of that, I am sure.
Whats not the truth or the reality is the narrow paradigm of thinking which in fact I believe is illusion of ego. And its time we open our minds and take a fresh look and admit we don’t know, we do not “know” supernatural good and evil do not exist.
I agree. Ego is a construct. In fact we don’t know supernatural at all, though we might to some degree make valid inferences. But neither do we know, despite popular belief, that they do, yes?
And most astonishing in cognitive therapy is asking one simple abstract question to all patients “What do you think will be going through your mind at the moment of death”
Well, as above, “I don’t know” is an honest answer. Clearly the point of your statement is to induce a response of concern about the consequences of one’s actions in an alleged afterlife. Well I haven’t been “there,” but having had an NDE, I have to say it was absolutely wonderful and very life changing. Looking forward to the next time!
Quickly we can conclude our atheists are not so atheist as one might think.
What does this conversation have to do with atheists? And how valid is your conclusion? Perhaps it is too quick? I don’t know, it may be spot on, though very vague. I guess you are trying to say that avowed atheists reconsider on their death beds. Maybe, but I doubt it. As for me, not being an atheist, that is not in my considerations, as you might know from my signature.
 
So the illusion of ego resides where exactly?
That is a supremely important question! Where is yours? Looking for one’s ego is a remarkably important endeavor, and potentially of great reward.
I’m just slightly confused by these oh so bold assertions as to suggest the known, when clearly you do not know?
How clearly? I’m glad that comes across. So I can only suggest. As I have often said: “Not knowing is the most advantageous position.” But as I said, also, belief has prophylactic consequences, exactly because the believer believes they have, usually or often, a final or conclusive answer. So belief, especially consensus belief treated as “knowledge,” serves to dampen curiosity.
Wait, wait, could it possibly be this blocks our connection with the spiritual depths?:eek:
Not sure what “spiritual depths” you are refereeing to. I’ m only suggesting that it can be very useful to look at yourself. Heck, I bet even Saints do it, Yes? Even better, listen. Listening to Silence is the most productive.
Perhaps Sochi will be our test model and we can monitor his daily prayer recitation and see how this illusion develops into the apparent reality? 😃
I’ll bet you’ve done worse! 🙂 Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
 
“It really boils down to this: that all life is interrelated. We are all caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied together into a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. We are made to live together because of the interrelated structure of reality . . . Before you finish eating breakfast in the morning, you’ve depended on more than half the world. This is the way our universe is structured, this is its interrelated quality. We aren’t going to have peace on Earth until we recognize the basic fact of the interrelated structure of all reality. “

-Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
1967 Christmas Sermon on Peace

dioceseofvenice.org/pope-fran…-a-love-story/

There is a Zen story that needs telling here:

A Zen master had become famous for the special tea he brewed, and another master, having heard about this wonderful tea, sauntered into his room one day carrying a cup of his own tea. “I’ve heard people rave about how delicious your tea is,” he announced. “I’d like to try it for myself.”

“Very well,” said the Zen master, “You are welcome to it. But first you must empty your cup of tea before I can fill it with mine.”

There are a few men of science, it seems, who don’t get the point of the story. They stand in the doorway of religion, their cups sloshing over with whatever it is they’re drinking, and then presume to judge the beverage that’s being brewed deep inside the room.

It isn’t as if they come prepared to render a disinterested opinion. No, they reached their conclusions long before they approached the door. They examined the dregs they found in the Zen Master’s garbage and, regarding themselves qualified to apply inductive methods, they determined that their reconstituted beverage was by nature distasteful. Of course, what was good about it was coursing through the veins of the Zen Master. But when you’ve already decided that what is garbage always was, there is no need to investigate further.

Ming Zhen Shakya

“We do not fundamentally want to have and to do; we only want to be, and we use the having and doing for that purpose. Further, our will to be is not content with anything; it seeks its goal beyond the irksome limits of having and doing. Man will not be really happy until he is consciously one with God, and shares the freedom of that one Reality.”
  • Ernest Wood
“Knowing is not thinking. Knowing begins when thinking ceases, having finished its work. Every new knowing is a joy, for it is a new experience of unity.”
  • Ernest Wood
“It becomes necessary to realize that the body is not conscious, but we are conscious of the body, also that the mind is not conscious but we are conscious of the mind.”
  • Ernest Wood
“All things are the same at their core but clinging to one and discarding another Is living in illusion. A mind is not a fit judge of itself. It is prejudiced in its own favor or disfavor. It cannot see anything objectively.”
  • Seng Tsan, Third Chan Patriarch
Only that last and highest act of the mind in which it is poised in its highest flight, in which it knows its own inadequacy, and surrenders. We are reminded that we are seeing the dawnlight and not the full sun, but oh what a marvel that dawnlight is, arising over a dark world and illuminating every part of it."
  • Ernest Wood
“In thus allowing God to work in it, the soul … is at once illumined and transformed in God, and God communicates to it His supernatural Being, in such wise that it appears to be God Himself, and has all that God Himself has. And this union comes to pass when God grants the soul this supernatural favour, that all the things of God and the soul are one in participant transformation; and the soul seems to be God rather than a soul, and is indeed God by participation; although it is true that its natural being, though thus transformed, is as distinct from the Being of God as it was before.” St John of the Cross

Evil is something we create and created, not something we are but may become, mans nature is fallen and through habit and vice of the external temptation, man internally and externally cooperates with and cooperates with the external evil already created. And this too reverberates back and forth and through mankind and wages battle with the collective conscious illuminated in God.

The “I” isn’t collective and is reduced to the “me” and the “we” is at risk. That’s what has occurred with our backward thinking in modern psychology. Along with 25% of world population in prison in the US, what was done in the period of social transition, responsibility and accountability have been lost, we have created “victims” by grounding souls to a product of their environment. Its time for a fresh look and admitting our modern psychology is in fact ancient history and has been relegated to antiquity. I’m not even sure it keeps in pace with science or technology anymore.
 
That was beautiful, GaryTaylor! I could read such all day. Often have. St John of the Cross is one of my Catholic heroes. Not because he was Catholic of course, but because he was right. St Teresa of Avila as well, and a few others. Did you know he wrote poetry?
Why does the Church not tell you?
At last came the time for the bride
to be with Him.
Nothing the other brides had ever known
could have prepared me.
Only the Beauty and Light you cannot describe
has a place in His house.
I can touch God–yes–but not with anything I own,
not with anything I can identify with
not with anything that
knows
me
Purity, have you ever contemplated that word?
I once beheld the Root of the Immaculate
and it drew me into itself,
I looked at all through
His eyes.
Why does my sacred church not tell you:
God only sees
Himself.
Sts Teresa of Avila and Catherine of Sienna wrote fabulously lovely works as well, but that one above by St John is one of my favorites.

Thank you for sharing your quotes with me. I truly appreciate that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top