Cursillo

[DebChris]

You are toying with words here.

To quote your previous statement, "We can open ourselves to the experience, or we can close ourselves off through skepticism. If I accept the invitation, I also accept that some things may also be asked of me. I may be asked to leave behind my watch, to allow myself to be unencumbered by a need to know the schedule. I might actually even allow somebody else to take care of me for a change. "

You, in your own words, chose to “open yourself up to the experience,” aka left behind your watch, unencumbered yourself of the need to know a schedule, etc etc.

That’s your choice and your choice alone. As I said before, some people enjoy this kind of psychological manipulation for one reason or another. Also some people get trapped in situations like this and feel that they will be called bad things if they resist etc. The social pressure to conform can be considerable in these situations.

I really don’t have much to say about that, except that’s it’s very dangerous practice and people have a right to know that they cannot legally be held against their will. It’s a basic right to be able to move about as one wishes and think what one wants to think without coercion.

I’ll bet if you refuse to give up your watch & you hang onto your car keys and your cell phone, you can’t continue. I’ll bet if you step out for a solitary hour’s walk along about Saturday afternoon and swing by the gas station for a soda, you’re done. Am I right?

Was I manipulated when I took university extension courses that meant spending a week in the wilderness, completely cut off from civilization without a watch or radio?

Again, the invitation to make Cursillo can be accepted or rejected. There is no mind control. Please stop trying to turn a positive experience for many people into a negative experience for everybody.

No, they do not keep track of how much time you spend in the bathroom.

 

[iloveangels]

Was I manipulated when I took university extension courses that meant spending a week in the wilderness, completely cut off from civilization without a watch or radio?

Possibly. Wow, you like this stuff, don’t you? Did you do that thing where you fall and somebody catches you? Trust walking and all that. Pure quintessential 1970s wackiness. That’s psychological manipulation too.

Again, the invitation to make Cursillo can be accepted or rejected. There is no mind control. Please stop trying to turn a positive experience for many people into a negative experience for everybody.

Point being, it’s not always optional for some people. Some people are coerced into going by people who’ve already gone. Recruiting techniques and all that. And once there and involved, new things are sprung on them, and they feel they can’t leave at that point.

No, they do not keep track of how much time you spend in the bathroom.

ROFLOL, bet they do. It’s part of the method. I’m pretty sure they’d miss you if you stepped out back for 1/2 hour or so or decided to do about 1/2 hour of sudoku puzzles someplace else on the property, aka the ladies room. Maybe you’re not a leader and aren’t aware of this part yet.

This question remains: What happens if you won’t give up your cell phone and wristwatch?

 

[maryjk]

I have seen the people with whom I made Cursillo again. My table leader joined me in the weekly reunion group headed by my sponsor. There are also ultreyas, larger reunions of Curstilistas. It is also nice discovering that other friends of mine are also Custillistas.

There can be freedom in sitting with people you don’t know. If you do choose to share parts of your life, they cannot add to your personal narrative. What they might be able to do is share similar experiences from their own lives. One group of friends is not going to dominate the conversation.

Cursillos and personal retreats are viable spiritual experiences. Yes, family and friends are important. St. Paul even tells husbands and wives not to separate, except for short periods of time for prayer. That short period of time can be a weekend. It might be a week. If I trust my husband, I will give him the freedom to go away for a weekend to learn more about the faith we share. Likewise, if he wants to spend a week at a Trappist monastery, I will not stand in his way. When he returns, I am not going to nag him for every detail of what happened. I would leave it to him as to how much he wants to share.
You might like reading Gift of the Sea. Couples can actually grow closer by giving each other the freedom to spend time apart. I do like that Cursillo requests candidates to seek spousal consent before making a weekend.

What in the world are you talking about, with that last paragraph?

Because I think that my husband and child should be able to able to get in touch with me if they need me? Really?

Trust me, I have been married for 20+ years. I don’t need your (name removed by moderator)ut about my relationship.

 

[Mummsie]

Who would have thought I was being psychologically manipulated? I thought I was learning how to take the next step in my spiritual life. I even enjoyed it

A few clarifications about my Cursillo weekend:

1. I kept my cell phone
2. I kept my watch (there were also clocks on the walls)
3. I went outside for a walk
4. I was in a small private room (some shared 2 to a room)
5. The day’s agenda was posted
6. There was sunlight shining in
7. The food was well balanced and home cooking

Much of the Cursillo weekend was similar to Business conferences I’ve attended. Assigned seating. Group discussions. Group Reports (many times on poster paper). Group Activities.

My first reaction was “Wow! Look at all these Catholic women wanting to know more about their faith and how to share it.” It was very refreshing to sit with strangers and hear their perspectives on various topics. The weekend validated we are all Sisters in Christ.

I’ve acknowledged that apparently not all Cursillo weekends are created equal. It is vital that those who have bad experiences report these to their parish priest or their Bishop. They can’t fix what they don’t know about.

God Bless.

 

[iloveangels]

Who would have thought I was being psychologically manipulated? I thought I was learning how to take the next step in my spiritual life. I even enjoyed it

A few clarifications about my Cursillo weekend:

1. I kept my cell phone
2. I kept my watch (there were also clocks on the walls)
3. I went outside for a walk
4. I was in a small private room (some shared 2 to a room)
5. The day’s agenda was posted
6. There was sunlight shining in
7. The food was well balanced and home cooking

Much of the Cursillo weekend was similar to Business conferences I’ve attended. Assigned seating. Group discussions. Group Reports (many times on poster paper). Group Activities.

My first reaction was “Wow! Look at all these Catholic women wanting to know more about their faith and how to share it.” It was very refreshing to sit with strangers and hear their perspectives on various topics. The weekend validated we are all Sisters in Christ.

I’ve acknowledged that apparently not all Cursillo weekends are created equal. It is vital that those who have bad experiences report these to their parish priest or their Bishop. They can’t fix what they don’t know about.

God Bless.

I’m glad that you had a good retreat Mummsie. We have a lot of first person accounts in here and elsewhere and yours is the very first that’s been like this. The absolute very first.

A couple of questions though:

1. What were your discussions about?
2. What were the posters you made about?
3. Were there any surprises?

I agree with you on what should happen if coercion and loss of freedom takes place. It should be reported immediately.

 

[Mummsie]

I’m glad that you had a good retreat Mummsie. We have a lot of first person accounts in here and elsewhere and yours is the very first that’s been like this. The absolute very first.

A couple of questions though:

1. What were your discussions about?
2. What were the posters you made about?
3. Were there any surprises?

I agree with you on what should happen if coercion and loss of freedom takes place. It should be reported immediately.

1. Discussions were centered on the speaker’s topic.
2. Poster (singular) expressed our group’s “wrap up” of the day’s talks.
3. A couple of pleasant surprises that still make me smile. But, then I’m not usually surprised by anything. (I’m a planner, a bit anal, and very much a control freak)

And, truthfully, these 3 items in particular I have experienced at corporate meetings.

God Bless you.

 

[iloveangels]

1. Discussions were centered on the speaker’s topic.
2. Poster (singular) expressed our group’s “wrap up” of the day’s talks.
3. A couple of pleasant surprises that still make me smile. But, then I’m not usually surprised by anything. (I’m a planner, a bit anal, and very much a control freak)

And, truthfully, these 3 items in particular I have experienced at corporate meetings.

God Bless you.

Okay, what was the speaker’s topic?

You have experienced surprises from relatives or about affection at corporate meetings? That’s interesting.

 

[Mummsie]

Okay, what was the speaker’s topic?

You have experienced surprises from relatives or about affection at corporate meetings? That’s interesting.

As indicated earlier there were many topics. Faith, Evangelization, Service…topics you would expect to hear about at a Catholic or Christian retreat.

Don’t think I said anything about affection or relatives But, yes, I’ve experienced nice little surprises at corporate meetings. Not sure where you’re headed with this one???

God Bless You.

 

[DebChris]

Possibly. Wow, you like this stuff, don’t you? Did you do that thing where you fall and somebody catches you? Trust walking and all that. Pure quintessential 1970s wackiness. That’s psychological manipulation too.

Point being, it’s not always optional for some people. Some people are coerced into going by people who’ve already gone. Recruiting techniques and all that. And once there and involved, new things are sprung on them, and they feel they can’t leave at that point.

ROFLOL, bet they do. It’s part of the method. I’m pretty sure they’d miss you if you stepped out back for 1/2 hour or so or decided to do about 1/2 hour of sudoku puzzles someplace else on the property, aka the ladies room. Maybe you’re not a leader and aren’t aware of this part yet.

This question remains: What happens if you won’t give up your cell phone and wristwatch?

Not afraid of a little adventure in my life. I’ve been described as a risk taker. Why else would I have accepted employment in the Persian Gulf? And no, I don’t trust anybody enough to fall backward.
If I was gone for 1/2 hour, the leaders might be worried and want to make sure nothing happened that required medical care. No, I have not gone to the leaders school provided by my diocese. I have been in leadership positions in other situations, however.
Nobody took my watch. Nobody goes through your belongings to check if you have a watch, cell phone etc. No bed checks. There are no armed guards.
What recruiting techniques? There is no quota system for how many people to invite. I wouldn’t invite anybody without also giving them the booklet that explains Cursillo. A person with questions can also google search the many websites that explain Cursillo. You will find some of them throughout this thread. Even a person who has not made Cursillo can be invited to a weekend reunion.

What in the world are you talking about, with that last paragraph?
Because I think that my husband and child should be able to able to get in touch with me if they need me? Really?
Trust me, I have been married for 20+ years. I don’t need your (name removed by moderator)ut about my relationship.

I’m glad you have a great relationship. How did your family get ahold of you before cell phones? One of the reasons for spousal consent before Cursillo is to ensure that the relationship will not be negatively effected by a person’s decision to make Cursillo. It’s the same reasoning that has wives involved when their husbands consider the deaconate.
Women are used to being caregivers. We want to be there for the people we love. Sometimes we don’t give ourselves “me” time. Taking time for a retreat, or Cursillo, can be seen as giving myself a gift and trusting my family to take care of themselves for a change. Of course, if there is an emergency I would want to be notified.
I would have to search the posts to find if it was the OP or somebody else who wrote about the recommendation received that the husband go first. Again, this is not set in stone. There is no requirement that if one spouse makes Cursillo that the other follow. A reluctant spouse may choose to go only after they see positive changes in the one who did go.

The evangelization method espoused by Cursillo is “Make a friend. Be a friend. Bring a friend to Christ.” I have shared this on evangelization threads. It’s not a secret. Unlike other religions, Christianity is about relationship, not merely an acceptance of beliefs. Our first relationship is with Jesus. We love because He first loved us. We demonstrate this love in our relationships with one another. We all belong to the Body of Christ. Our bringing Christ to the world is best achieved by living the life to which Christ has called us. In the words of St. Francis, “Preach always and if necessary use words.” It is important to cultivate our personal relationships, to be a friend. In time, we may begin to talk about our faith journey with our friend. That’s when a discussion of Cursillo might take place. I would hope that a person who accepts my invitation would go, not because he/she expects an emotional high, but because he/she wants to learn more about our Faith.

The venue for where a Cursillo is held varies from retreat centers in which a person may have a private room to those in which participants do share accomodations. One person who did actually have a private room told me that he actually felt he missed something of the experience because he did not have to share accomodations (i.e. by sleeping in a gym). The accomodations should, by all means, be known to candidates before making the Cursillo. Let me know if I need to bring my own bedding (which I did). I can sleeop almost anywhere so sharing was no big deal (I come from a large family). My home diocese offers Cursillo weekends once a quarter. These alternate between weekends for men and weekends for women. The number of participants is limited. In my case, that meant not going until August after being placed on the March waiting list.

 

[tafan]

It is true that empathy and humility are virtues. These virtues are not acted upon in a vacuum. We are emotional beings who feel empathy for another person.
There is a difference between emotions that are naturally elicited and emotions that are manipulated. In the second case they are forced. Let’s take this back to the idea of learning. I can definitely learn about empathy and humility in a purely intellectual manner. It is only when I put these virtues into practice (action) that I experience the emotions associated with these virtues.
Emotions, in and of themselves, are neither good nor bad. We can use our emotions to respond to a situation in our lives; or we can allow the emotions to control us so that we react to a situation and give that situation power over us.

Having emotions is neither good nor bad; however in many (if not all) specific instances emotions are either good or bad in the effect they have on our lives.
I think relying on emotions for leading a virtuous life is not productive. Few people can control their emotions enough such that they will drive us to always be charitable or make moral choices. Even good emotions, eg the feeling of love of a spouse, are not reliable when they conflict with other emotions, eg anger at one’s spouse. That is why love has to be a decision, much more than an emotion.
More specifically, toward the subject at hand. It seems apparent to me, regardless of details of how a particular Cursillo is implemented, that the Cursillo weekend is programmed to take a persone through a very set and controlled range of emotions at particular points in time. I will leave the phsycological evalutaion of this to others who know much more about it than I, but I will say that this does not seem like a means to instill a long term commitment to a virtuous life.

Conversion is a life long process for all of us, a call to holiness that none of us achieves quickly. Perhaps a “jump start” to get the ball rolling can make sense for some. But it would not be for me. Even the good Cursillo weekends described on this thread seem to be the exact opposite of what I need to further my call to holiness.

While reading this thread, there have been several descritions of the extensive talks given in Cursillo weekends. In all the descriptions on this thread about Cursillo’s talks, I have seen little to no mention of things such as

• frequent reception of sacraments
• frequent examination of consciences
• daily prayer life
• frequent reading of the Bible
• meditation and meditative readings
• corporal works of mercy
• spirtitual works of mercy

All of these things (and I probably missed some) are needed to move forward on the path to holiness. Impossible to cover them all in a weekend? of course. And I would not expect any single retreat to cover all of this. But it seems, and I may be wrong, that cursillo tries to get us there faster, by skipping a lot of this.

All of this is just my impression.

As I stated early on in this thread, I started out skeptical, but interested with an open mind. I have been searching for something to assist me in my life and there is a Cursillo group in our parish, other parishes around here focus on ACTS retreats (Which I think are similiar, but they too are rather secretive so it is hard to tell).

I do hope my skepticism has not been offensive to anyone.

 

[gh4]

And what happens if you spend too long in private? Like in the bathroom. Yes, at these things I’ll bet they keep track of where everyone is, right?

Actually I can tell you what happens here. I went to my room unescorted and within 3 minutes I had 6 people in my room, including the priest. This is when I decided to leave. Now, I don’t know about others, but why on earth would a priest BARGE into a woman’s bedroom for any reason? I would guess that my parish priest would avoid women’s bedrooms like the plague unless he was assured that the woman in the bedroom was very ill and needed to be anointed.
So I was accosted by the priest and 5 women. And then I said it… I"M LEAVING. And that was that. And the priest watched me pack up, underwear and bras and every last article I had brought with me (except for my favorite lipstick which somehow got left behind and lost forever.) That’s what happens, they converge upon you!

 

[gh4]

No, they do not keep track of how much time you spend in the bathroom.

Actually they did. I was asked if I really needed to go so often and if I had issues with going.

 

[gh4]

Who would have thought I was being psychologically manipulated? I thought I was learning how to take the next step in my spiritual life. I even enjoyed it

A few clarifications about my Cursillo weekend:

1. I kept my cell phone
2. I kept my watch (there were also clocks on the walls)
3. I went outside for a walk
4. I was in a small private room (some shared 2 to a room)
5. The day’s agenda was posted
6. There was sunlight shining in
7. The food was well balanced and home cooking

Much of the Cursillo weekend was similar to Business conferences I’ve attended. Assigned seating. Group discussions. Group Reports (many times on poster paper). Group Activities.

My first reaction was “Wow! Look at all these Catholic women wanting to know more about their faith and how to share it.” It was very refreshing to sit with strangers and hear their perspectives on various topics. The weekend validated we are all Sisters in Christ.

I’ve acknowledged that apparently not all Cursillo weekends are created equal. It is vital that those who have bad experiences report these to their parish priest or their Bishop. They can’t fix what they don’t know about.

God Bless.

And I am so jealous that you had such a wonderful Cursillo. Seriously, mine was nothing like yours. But it is what it is, and I can’t fix it now. I can only tell others of my experience and share it with those who are seeking information about the weekend.

 

[Jeremiah1278]

Having emotions is neither good nor bad; however in many (if not all) specific instances emotions are either good or bad in the effect they have on our lives.
I think relying on emotions for leading a virtuous life is not productive. Few people can control their emotions enough such that they will drive us to always be charitable or make moral choices. Even good emotions, eg the feeling of love of a spouse, are not reliable when they conflict with other emotions, eg anger at one’s spouse. That is why love has to be a decision, much more than an emotion.
More specifically, toward the subject at hand. It seems apparent to me, regardless of details of how a particular Cursillo is implemented, that the Cursillo weekend is programmed to take a persone through a very set and controlled range of emotions at particular points in time. I will leave the phsycological evalutaion of this to others who know much more about it than I, but I will say that this does not seem like a means to instill a long term commitment to a virtuous life.

Conversion is a life long process for all of us, a call to holiness that none of us achieves quickly. Perhaps a “jump start” to get the ball rolling can make sense for some. But it would not be for me. Even the good Cursillo weekends described on this thread seem to be the exact opposite of what I need to further my call to holiness.

While reading this thread, there have been several descritions of the extensive talks given in Cursillo weekends. In all the descriptions on this thread about Cursillo’s talks, I have seen little to no mention of things such as

• frequent reception of sacraments
• frequent examination of consciences
• daily prayer life
• frequent reading of the Bible
• meditation and meditative readings
• corporal works of mercy
• spirtitual works of mercy

All of these things (and I probably missed some) are needed to move forward on the path to holiness. Impossible to cover them all in a weekend? of course. And I would not expect any single retreat to cover all of this. But it seems, and I may be wrong, that cursillo tries to get us there faster, by skipping a lot of this.

All of this is just my impression.

As I stated early on in this thread, I started out skeptical, but interested with an open mind. I have been searching for something to assist me in my life and there is a Cursillo group in our parish, other parishes around here focus on ACTS retreats (Which I think are similiar, but they too are rather secretive so it is hard to tell).

I do hope my skepticism has not been offensive to anyone.

Tafan, I don’t think you’ve been offensive at all. You are quite fair and respectful.

Cursillo talks and discussions do cover the sacraments including reconciliation. Piety is one of the three main focuses of Cursillo, so prayer life and Bible reading is covered as a part of that. Study is one of the other three main focuses of Cursillo—Bible reading and other study is discussed. The third prong of the Cursillo is Action. Under this prong, much time is devoted to how we can use our time, talent and treasure to do works of mercy. Once the three days of study/reflection on Study, Piety and Action are over, Cursillo provides a method for keeping you motivated to continue to live a studious, pious, active Christian life.

These are not discussed in great detail on this thread because of a certain amount of bias in the data. The only people talking about the details of the Cursillo weekend are folks who hated it, folks who left early, and folks who have never been on one. The folks who got something out of the weekend tend to respect the wishes of the Cursillo movement to not disclose too much about the weekend and the discussions.

I found some of Cursillo to be goofy. I found some of it to be irrelevant to me. I had to sit through a lot of fluff. Some of it eye-roll inducing. All of that was tolerable because I liked seeing how devoted other Catholics were to their spiritual lives, I was inspired by the hard work they put into their Christian lives, and I knew I could improve how I spent my life. In other words, the take-home from the weekend, for me, was to seek simple or big ways in my daily life to bring Christianity. So I study more, pray more, go to mass more, have better Lenton seasons, and seek ways to create a Christian environment in my life.

I’ll reiterate—I don’t think your skepticism is offensive. It helps me remember some of the goofy things I didn’t like

 

[maryjk]

What we really need??

Someone that has been part of the giving team.

That way, they could answer questions about the talks and set up of the weekend.

That way, we could find out whose weekend is closest to what is actually suppose to happen.

I think many here would be surprised to find out that gh4’s weekend is much closer to the ideal than Mummsie’s weekend. I say this because it seems, even for those that enjoyed their weekend, their experience is more closely aligned with gh4’s. No phone, no private walks, no watch and no schedule seem to be the norm.

Someone that is part of the giving team, someone that has read the materials for set up, could tell us.

 

[tafan]

I find it interesting that the Cursillo movement itself admits that the 4th day is not working (as of 2006). Hence my point, too much stress on one weekend, even if the message of that weekend is to transform our lives in all the right way.

If we look at the 4th Day in many places, we realize sadly that it is failing. This isn’t
because the method is faulty, it is because we haven’t understood it and few are living it.

cursillo.org/leaders/security.pdf

 

[maryjk]

I find it interesting that the Cursillo movement itself admits that the 4th day is not working (as of 2006). Hence my point, too much stress on one weekend, even if the message of that weekend is to transform our lives in all the right way.

If we look at the 4th Day in many places, we realize sadly that it is failing. **This isn’t
because the method is faulty, it is because we haven’t understood it and few are living it. **

Oh, no, no, no. The method isn’t faulty. It couldn’t be the method.

Or, maybe it is the method and once people return to their lives, they realize that the “mountain top” they experienced was forced, rather than a true experience.

Cut someone off from all they know. Introduce them to ideas that they would normally back away from. Then act surprised that when the participants have time to think, rather than just experience, they walk away.

This isn’t rocket science people.

 

[iloveangels]

Here’s a very good explanation of what a Cursillo contains and what it’s like.
questioningcursillo.com/9.html

Here’s a book on the topic that gives some details about how cursillos work.
The author is Brian V. Janssen. The book is Cursillos: Little Courses in Catharsis

ISBN-10: 1606087754
ISBN-13: 978-1606087756

Available from the large online bookstores. You can probably also special order it from your local bookstore. There are also used copies around.

 

[iloveangels]

The secrecy is a problem. People are sworn to secrecy during the retreat and many people undergo such dramatic psychological catharsis reactions that they cannot leave the method behind and become very protective of it. Others are ashamed of what happened and want to dismiss it. Others groove on the novelty and try to keep their experience alive by trying to become leaders and going to mini-retreat after mini-retreat, always seeking the high again. Even the mini-retreats, however, are highly secretive, even though they pack nowhere near the psychological punch that the 3-day weekend does.

During the course of a cursillo, you don’t hear anything doctrinal that’s new. It’s really rather generic doctrinally if you want to know the truth. And in fact, some Episcopalians, Lutherans and the Dutch Reform congregations have picked the method up and didn’t have to change much of anything to present it to their congregations, just a little terminology.

It’s all about using “surprises” to break down the participant’s resistance and produce a psychological catharsis, a sort of break in the personality, in order to insert a new understanding about how to understand life and faith. After the “break” occurs, which can be emotional and social and is public by design (part of the method is to make it public), then the person is encouraged to regress, aka crayon drawings and so on. It’s pretty grisly. This is why they object if you leave the premises for any length of time, and why your cell phone is generally taken away. Those are lifelines to your normal life.

For some people, the catharsis is dramatic and even violent with much weeping; for some it’s much more peaceful. It depends on what the person’s personality is like and how they process their own emotions.

It’s designed to produce an alternate way of viewing life and religion. If you read the history of how the founder, Eduardo Bonnin came up with it, you can see what he used as his inspiration and where he got his methods. It’s really rather interesting.

cursillo.asn.au/History/History.htm

Not particularly moral, and not particularly in the best interests of the Catholic Church, but it’s interesting, nevertheless.

In some parts of the country, there appears to be a “Cursillo subculture” and it may be undermining the church. It can substitute an alternate vision of living out the faith for the real one, which requires fidelity, grace and work over a long period of time.

 

[iloveangels]

ca·thar·sis
   [kuh-thahr-sis]
noun, plural ca·thar·ses  -seez]

1. the purging of the emotions or relieving of emotional tensions, especially through certain kinds of art, as tragedy or music.
2. Medicine/Medical . purgation.
3. Psychiatry .
   a.psychotherapy that encourages or permits the discharge of pent-up, socially unacceptable affects.
   b. discharge of pent-up emotions so as to result in the alleviation of symptoms or the permanent relief of the condition.

After a catharsis, a sense of well-being can be produced by physical contact, reassurance and “surprises.” On one of these weekends, the sense of relief that follows a catharsis can be labeled “genuine Christianity” by leaders at this point (as opposed to what you might have been taught earlier), and this is accompanied uncritically by a great sense of relief and acceptance by many people. Psychologically, people are at their least likely to think critically at the end of a catharsis. This is how the mind works.

Therefore, they may come to believe, and believe very deeply, as a result of this process that Christianity is all about relief of emotions, affirmation of the people around you and what people think of you. The emphasis is taken off of teachings, truth and the official church structure. It becomes all about you and the people around you.

That is, if it “takes.” Not everyone is equally receptive to this. Some people have personalities that are somewhat resistant to manipulation. Some people manipulate rather easily. Individual differences of personality.