I have such a long long long way to go. Got to stop jumping full force into the bogs and get back on the straight & narrow. Jesus, be my center!I think you might have a dispute among Carmelites who might view this origin differently, JR. – understandably, since we love our ‘little’ Saint so much and treasure his works. I believe St. John was Shakespeare’s predecessor by a number of years, and his works did circulate among the carmels, even though they were not published until early 1600’s.
That one article, I think it was talking about Mother Theresa, if you pray for humility expect to be humiliated, HA! There’s my answer!
You’re probably correct here as to the dates. I do know that the term Dark Night is often used in Shakespeare’s sonnets. Maybe, it’s the other way around. Maybe it’s Shakespear who borrows it from the religious world.
Hi InLight…Probably rather difficult to discern via written word whether the person is in The Dark Night or not, I wouldn’t know personally and would rather put forward the signs and criteria of The Dark Night and not try to assess the persons spiritual ‘position’. Be that as it may, as I said in another Post, the term “dark night” has slipped into our common language and almost everyday usage to mean any prolonged period of suffering, confusion etc. and I think many use this term to mean simply that. I think we need to accept both ‘definitions’ unless of course someone is putting forward as the theological definition of The Dark Night as something inaccurate i.e. lacking in the accepted theological criteria for the Dark Night, drawn from St. John. Well, anyway I personally would accept both definitions.Barb, to be honest, I haven’t been reading your profile, may be long long time ago when I first read your post, definitely not recent.
What I meant by mis-usage of dark night is based on what I saw so often on the thread from various (name removed by moderator)ut. Sometimes it almost looks like that people want to link their life’s hardships with the terminology of “dark night” to give what they are facing a spiritual meaning of untrue spiritual advancement.
yes, i understood what you were saying. i also think you can gain wisdom in many other ways.
thank you Barb for inserting your WISDOM into the thread. very helpful! and you explained it better than i could i guess.Hi InLight…Probably rather difficult to discern via written word whether the person is in The Dark Night or not, I wouldn’t know personally and would rather put forward the signs and criteria of The Dark Night and not try to assess the persons spiritual ‘position’. Be that as it may, as I said in another Post, the term “dark night” has slipped into our common language and almost everyday usage to mean any prolonged period of suffering, confusion etc. and I think many use this term to mean simply that. I think we need to accept both ‘definitions’ unless of course someone is putting forward as the theological definition of The Dark Night as something inaccurate i.e. lacking in the accepted theological criteria for the Dark Night, drawn from St. John. Well, anyway I personally would accept both definitions.
Most everyday type Catholics probably would not understand that The Dark Night is a point of spiritual and mystical theology with a very strict definition … probably even not have a working knowledge of what spritual and mystical theology actually means.
Blessings and my regards…Barb
The term “dark night” does predate St. John. Here is one of the earliest uses:You’re probably correct here as to the dates. I do know that the term Dark Night is often used in Shakespeare’s sonnets. Maybe, it’s the other way around. Maybe it’s Shakespear who borrows it from the religious world.
If that’s the case, I stand corrected.
However, it’s interesting to note that in Carmelite literature and Shakespeare’s drama it nuanced so similarly. That does not surprise me either, because John of the Cross is one of the greatest poets that Spain has ever produced.
JR
It did, however, take St. John as I understand things and his beautiful poetry and great insight and understanding to make the term a strictly defined point of spiritual theology…and the criteria or indications of The Dark Night as a point of theology are drawn from St. John.
I kinda agree with you that St. John stands unique among all others, not only for having experienced it, but in being able to counsel those of us who may some day be undergoing the same purifications.
Hi again Carole…Yeah, I did not mean to state that Cyprian actually went through what we understand as the mystical “dark night” perse, rather that the term only predates St. John and as far back as Cyprian and Cyprian was not the only predating St. John who used the term.
Absolutely! Understanding spiritual theology as I think I said in a previous post is like travelling to some unknown place with a map. I do tend to doubt that to a person undergoing the mystical Dark Night that to know this would be much comfort at all if any. While it may be so to another. The nature and degree, length, of the ‘darkness’ is in God’s hands as Father Aumann points out in his “Spiritual Theology” which I previously quoted and referenced. Be that as it may these are my own theoretical and speculative considerations only.
I have just woken up to something. Sometimes something just niggles at me and I keep going back to a post until the penny finally drops and I can’t leave the post alone until that penny finally falls into its place…I have an appalling memory and once I post the post tends to disappear from my mind, though not a hard and fast rule. When I read this, I was mystified intitally:Barb, to be honest, I haven’t been reading your profile, may be long long time ago when I first read your post, definitely not recent.
What I meant by mis-usage of dark night is based on what I saw so often on the thread from various (name removed by moderator)ut. Sometimes it almost looks like that people want to link their life’s hardships with the terminology of “dark night” to give what they are facing a spiritual meaning of untrue spiritual advancement.
This is the comment that you are referring to I can now see:Barb, to be honest, I haven’t been reading your profile, may be long long time ago when I first read your post, definitely not recent.
Sadly my human nature and profile still remains totally intact
I jump too often speedily to conclusions (never a good move!), hang on to my original opinion for dear life (worse fault!) and should definitely work much harder on the search for truth.Hi Roza…I dont know what you mean by the following or how it connects to your post :Re: The Way of the Perfect or Unitive Way
I listened to that and once again mulling over in my mind… and I’m only referring to me here, not everyone that’s ever had to deal with anything medical… I had an eye disease pop up out of the blue, no known cause & dealt with living in a two dimensional world for close to a decade, or maybe 8 yrs. No known cause though the disease itself is considered autoimmune. Haven’t done check up appointments I should because no health insurance… once I’m employed. I still keep wondering if it wasn’t (just my case here) my dabbling that made this all happen. It’s just a thought that never has left my head. I guess it’s one of those things that’s not really important… curiosity killed a cat… ‘think’ (my telling myself)
I’m thankful to have two eyes again, maybe not perfect but that’s not a problem. 3D is a treat.
Other than that I think it is mostly impossible to know for sure why what happens to us and including those negative matters…as a sureness and guaranteed, at least those matters that do not arise from an obvious cause. We work through them as best we can without really being sure often of the why of it all. I had a lump in the corner of my eye that my doctor said was a cyst that later proved to be cancer, it was removed by day surgery and they were able to get it all. Very scarey though! I was preparing myself for the potential loss of an eye or worse if the cancer had spread. It turned out to be a very slow growing cancer as i had had the lump for about 12 years…must have been slow indeed! It was great comfort to me too at the time when preparing for loss of my eye or worse as a potential, to think of those that do suffer far more than I ever have or will.
I don’t have hemorrhages anymore either. I could have a normal day & then out of the blue start seeing blood. Now that’s all memories and not a part of life anymore. I’m very thankful for that. I guess I’m a weird one, but like I said, I dig… I don’t have that fear anymore of going blind like I used to and I’ve met people who were blind and talked to them about adjusting etc. And no, no calling to get into medicine. Firstly Eli, a big welcome to Catholic Answers:thumbsup:
…I am wondering if you received in this thread at least in its early stages the help that was indeed helpful to you, or whether you are still struggling with how to deal with your state?Hi again Roza…I can really appreciate the worry you must have had and over an extended period of years and I was really happy to read that things seem to righting themselves re your vision without any sort of blindness or markedly impaired vision.I’d have to check my old notes, late 80’s early 90’s I noticed the problems, let it go for a long time because I gave up on that eye. Then stuff happened that made me have to get checked again and they basically replaced the vitreous with saline & gave me a new lens & it’s just about back to normal. Needs more surgery some day but works now a lot better than it did for a long time.
I dont think you could be any more weird than most other cultures find Australians, and I am an Australian. In fact a book has been written about us Aussie’s “They’re a weird mob”…or some similar title. My doctor tells me I am marked “eccentric” and that others find my eccentric ways decidedly disconcerting or weird. Rather, I think, I am totally counter cultural. We humans do like to herd and seek out those who are the same as the ‘herd’…and reject those who are not at all the same as those in the ‘herd’. We like to put people into ‘compartments’ where they are all nice and tidy and summed up and filed.
Will just need to keep getting check ups (once I have insurance again) to make sure it stays OK. Have a cataract in my good eye too but it’s not ready to come out yet, at least as of a year or more ago. I think I was 32 when the first one was removed. We do like to categorize, label and organize those around us don’t we (as a society).