"Dark Night of the Soul"

[AlanFromWichita]

Today is also my Birthday.

Teresa and I share the day in celebration.

Jim

Happy birthday, and I’m so glad to hear about your feeling His presence.

Alan

 

[Sirach2]

:hug1:
This is just a little smilie, Jim, but I send along BIG wishes for a very blessed and happy birthday! What a special feast day to be born on! May you have many more happy birthdays in your future.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

:hug1:
This is just a little smilie, Jim, but I send along BIG wishes for a very blessed and happy birthday! What a special feast day to be born on! May you have many more happy birthdays in your future.

Thanks everyone!

All the great Saints have their feast days in October.

St Theresa of Avila, St Francis of Assisi, St Teresa of Avila, St Margaret Mary Alacoque, just to name those that come to mind.

Jim

 

[Sirach2]

Pssst. JimR, did you mean for the first saint to say Therese of the Child Jesus? Oct. 1st feast day.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Pssst. JimR, did you mean for the first saint to say Therese of the Child Jesus? Oct. 1st feast day.

Opps, yes, St. Theresa the Little Flower.

Jim

 

[InLight247]

Hi Inlight -

…But the things we’re talking about are no less mystical in their own right … but in the “ordinary way.” With Teresa, in particular, it’s easy to lose sight of that. Remember, self-knowledge in the manner we’ve discussed is infused … passively received. Very much a gift. And it’s very easy to be misunderstood when discussing such things … in the confessional and elsewhere … on these forums and in Carmel community.

Thanks for reminding me of this. How true it is that the self-knowledge we are discussing is illuminated by God, not “figured out” by us on our own! I remember those moments of a flash of realization , a knowing in my heart, clear, and with no mistake. They definitely came from above, truly a gift passively received, infused.

So when I read the writings of Sts. Teresa, John, Therese et al … it’s good to remind myself that the things they describe might be of a higher order of magnitude than what I experience … because of the special mission they were given to the Church. They’re Doctors after all. I’m pretty darn sure I’m “just” meant to be a regular ‘ole run of the mill saint: plain vanilla, no sprinkles. But the parallels ARE there … and mystical in their own right. Prayer states and stages … nights of both the active and passive variety … they’re meant for everyone. We just might taste them to a lesser degree.
Dave

For myself, I have never thought about in my striving experiences “the parallels are there” - the in and out of active and passive nights, the prayer states… But you are so right. Each of us is unique and unique in God’s eyes, so are our experiences. Although comparing to the Doctors, ours are ordinary, nevertheless, there are parallels in the spiritual nature.

 

[Lady_Love]

Little Therese is my baptismal saint and Big Teresa is my confirmation saint and my birthday falls smack in the middle (almost smack) and the feast of Our Lady of the Rosary/Victories. Any how:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

 

[Ohana]

Happy Birthday Jim. Hope you have a wonderful day.

At Mass this morning the saint of the day - the priests always tell us who that is with a brief bIo. It was St. Teresa of Avila. Mass was better attended than usual, and there was a lot more reaching out after Mass than usual too. That was interesting since she was a cloistered contemplative!

I have been reading some of your comments over the weekend. I was away. One thing I ran into today when reading the “saint of the day” on my app/phone was that Teresa was given a vision of hell and shown where she would have wound up if she had continued with “frivolous talk” ! I have trouble understanding that. Or maybe fearful of understanding that. If she could be condemned to hell for frivolity, I have to wonder about myself. Yet, we seem to be assured that God forgives and forgets. Any thoughts on this.

Also, wasn’t St. John of the Cross either her confessor or spiritual director? Both?

Don’t mean to ramble, but I guess I will. I have been through a period since July of being very much in pain of one kind or another. I am talking here of psychological pain and spiritual pain. God has seemed to be far away, yet I have a sense of being guided. An example is having something pretty distressing happen, yet feeling solid spiritually in spite of that. Or wondering if I am having a bit of a dark night and running, unexpectedly into a statue of Mother Theresa of Calcutta, and then have the psalm at Mass kind of confirm that. Along with this has been, for a time, serious doubts about the existence of God, which I nevertheless, never took seriously. It is hard to explain that except that through it all, I knew these doubt were only that, and not reality. They confirmed rather than diminished my belief.

I am not sure what is happening, You all seem so much further along this road than me so does any of this square with what you have experienced. (yes, my language is mostly feeling and experiential, with a soupcon of logic )

 

[Sirach2]

Ohana:

One thing I ran into today when reading the “saint of the day” on my app/phone was that Teresa was given a vision of hell and shown where she would have wound up if she had continued with “frivolous talk/”

I have read that chapter umpteen times, Ohana. She was receiving very great gifts of prayer from God and had a miraculous recovery of health due to St. Joseph’s intercession. As a result, she became the buzz of the townspeople who all wanted to meet and talk with this holy person. More and more, she was called to the “parlor” to engage in these conversations, wherefrom she began to lose the favors of God.

We don’t know what exactly what she was shown in the vision of hell, but Our Lord was very displeased with the attention she was receiving from a certain gentleman who visited the parlor, and we can assume was very attracted to St. Teresa. On one such occasion, there was a huge toad that gave her the sense it was from God, together with another interior vision of warning that these visits were not for her.

At first, these talks were about God and holy things, but they later turned to things of the world, as people will often do. God had special designs on our saint, and was keeping watch. She wrote that some of the nuns in her convent had tried also to warn her. Without knowing further details, we cannot piece together anything beyond what she wrote. I don’t think we need to worry that our social communications with others are going to send us to hell.

You know what? Sometimes, I think the “parlor” of CAF can be just as detrimental spiritually to some of us who have a different vocation. No matter what thread I enter, I find negativity on the most innocent of topics where one would never expect such opposition. I have prayed and taken breaks from here many times.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

You know what? Sometimes, I think the “parlor” of CAF can be just as detrimental spiritually to some of us who have a different vocation. No matter what thread I enter, I find negativity on the most innocent of topics where one would never expect such opposition. I have prayed and taken breaks from here many times.

That’s one of the very reasons I stuck with it. I was determined that if my spiritual journey was to take me anywhere, it would allow me to enter into a contentious environment and as a minimum not get intimidated, defensive, loud, etc. CAF is a wonderful resource; it’s like a YMCA for the attitude – if you remain serene in this environment that shows you’re actually advancing along the spiritual journey. Plus these days, compared to years ago, there are also people who are not argumentative who often jump in and help.

The key is to isolate your feelings from anything negative that others write. Simply observe it, let it go, and speak to the heart of the matter with openness, honesty, and courtesy. I’m of course a work in progress on this.

After all, the measure of prayer is not how we feel during the prayer, but how it improves our relationships with others – especially those closest to us. And if we are supposed to love our enemy, what better place than here where it can be done safely and there are seldom a shortage of verbal “enemies?” Try to spread love in here, and you just might be launched into your own Dark Night.

I believe if the saints had had access, they would also have joined us on CAF. So many spiritual acts of mercy waiting to be done; so much Catholic fellowship to be had. In fact, how do we know there aren’t some of today’s posters who will become saints? Can you imagine a more “central” place for them to meet than “catholic.com?” That’s a great domain name!

Alan

 

[Marie1234]

:nope:

Far from it.

The “dark night of the soul” is one of the harshest trials to be experienced, and one that few reach, even fewer overcome. It is something that is present day and night.
I guess a saint would call it “beautiful”, inasmuch as it is a most sorrowful share in the cross of the Beloved Lord.

You’re absolutely right. Some of the most painful experiences of my life. Worse than any physical pain, and it’s a very long process. I’m coming out of it, have been for a while. Looking back, I can see how beautiful and poetic it was, but while I was experiencing it, not so much

You realize God hadn’t abandoned you, even when you felt so alone, scared, and helpless. When you reach the light at the end of the Night, it’s a peace you will have never experienced before. It comes in waves. You begin to see the world and sin more clearly. You can see what is good and what is from God.

When I went through it, I didn’t experience any psychosis or anything like others have said they had. I never wanted to commit suicide or anything. It was just a period or inward sinking, loneliness and fear.

Anyone who’s experiencing this, don’t give up. Stay strong and never stop reaching toward God. He really is there, even if you can’t feel His presence.

 

[GaryTaylor]

You know what? Sometimes, I think the “parlor” of CAF can be just as detrimental spiritually to some of us who have a different vocation. No matter what thread I enter, I find negativity on the most innocent of topics where one would never expect such opposition. I have prayed and taken breaks from here many times.

Your right rarely will one thread be complete without a debate in opposition, and often just because. Lots of temptation these days.

I believe your earlier comment is right also when I mentioned “wicked”. Bl Mother Teresa comes to mind most recent as I have seen it here also, common attack on Catholic Saints I would imagine. IMO what’s a shame about this is these are the points which the reader is often able to identify and relate to the daily struggle. This is where one comprehends that regardless of where you are and what your situation is others have been there and prevailed. Sainthood becomes a path for mankind instead of a status impossible to acheive as we see possibility. For me I found this aspect to be deeply revealing when all is stripped but humility and the naked truth. Course many come to mind also such as Confessions. St Teresa was gifted with a unique ability to place the reader in her past-present thoughts/thinking and walk you through the journey with her in a very real way. I would hope everyone see’s themselves on this path and its intended goal, thus not to shrug it off as subjected humanity and excusable evil.

I agree also St John of the Cross is probably not the best place to begin, though thats what I did by chance. Most of these books become constants if not to just re-read certain sections as they come into conversation or a passing thought. True though St John becomes clearer and more valuable when in conjunction with the others.

While St Teresa was mentioned at Mass yesterday, so too was St Faustinas work which apparently Pope Benedict has acknowledged as one of the greatest works in 2000 years, a status which now places her with an elite few. I have to re-read her work as I read it on-line and I just am not fond of reading on-line.

Peace

BTW Happy Birthday JIm!

 

[Sirach2]

You’re right; rarely will one thread be complete without a debate in opposition, and often just because. Lots of temptation these days.

Amazingly, in Cath News there is a thread about Pope Paul VI being beatified. I couldn’t resist commending the 14 who responded in a totally positive way. It seems that some folks have an innate negative streak that seeks to tear down rather than build up.

I believe your earlier comment is right also when I mentioned “wicked”. Bl Mother Teresa comes to mind most recent as I have seen it here also, common attack on Catholic Saints I would imagine.

I’ve seen those remarks about Bl. Mother Teresa also. Some of them originated in a website that is viciously attacking anyone and anything Catholic. A few who read that poison sometimes start a thread on it at CAF, since they become confused by what is portrayed there in such a horrible light.

While St Teresa was mentioned at Mass yesterday, so too was St Faustina’s work which apparently Pope Benedict has acknowledged as one of the greatest works in 2000 years, a status which now places her with an elite few. I have to re-read her work as I read it on-line and I just am not fond of reading on-line.

I never knew that! Thanks for letting us know. Maybe she will be named a Doctor of the Church some day with the other 5 women.

What I enjoy most about her Diary is the ability to requote her words, using specific entry numbers - kinda like the bible with its verse numbers. No other writings by saints have that handy feature. The difficulty is finding the quote. I’ve taken time to record my own index at the back of the book for that very purpose.

 

[Ohana]

I have read that chapter umpteen times, Ohana. She was receiving very great gifts of prayer from God and had a miraculous recovery of health due to St. Joseph’s intercession. As a result, she became the buzz of the townspeople who all wanted to meet and talk with this holy person. More and more, she was called to the “parlor” to engage in these conversations, wherefrom she began to lose the favors of God.

We don’t know what exactly what she was shown in the vision of hell, but Our Lord was very displeased with the attention she was receiving from a certain gentleman who visited the parlor, and we can assume was very attracted to St. Teresa. On one such occasion, there was a huge toad that gave her the sense it was from God, together with another interior vision of warning that these visits were not for her.

At first, these talks were about God and holy things, but they later turned to things of the world, as people will often do. God had special designs on our saint, and was keeping watch. She wrote that some of the nuns in her convent had tried also to warn her. Without knowing further details, we cannot piece together anything beyond what she wrote. I don’t think we need to worry that our social communications with others are going to send us to hell.

Thanks for this. I did not understand the background. I have read Interior Mansions, but not her autobiography. I suspect I need to read more widely.

You know what? Sometimes, I think the “parlor” of CAF can be just as detrimental spiritually to some of us who have a different vocation. No matter what thread I enter, I find negativity on the most innocent of topics where one would never expect such opposition. I have prayed and taken breaks from here many times.

Got to admit, I sometimes enjoy a bit of a scrap, but not when it gets too personal or vicious. What I am finding though, is that we are at different places and involved in different kinds of spirituality. The more we can come to love and respect that diversity in each other, the better off we are. I have been trying to respond more mildly to others, and take more time to find out where they are coming from. Mea culpa for not doing so always.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

You’re absolutely right. Some of the most painful experiences of my life. Worse than any physical pain, and it’s a very long process. I’m coming out of it, have been for a while. Looking back, I can see how beautiful and poetic it was, but while I was experiencing it, not so much

You realize God hadn’t abandoned you, even when you felt so alone, scared, and helpless. When you reach the light at the end of the Night, it’s a peace you will have never experienced before. It comes in waves. You begin to see the world and sin more clearly. You can see what is good and what is from God.

When I went through it, I didn’t experience any psychosis or anything like others have said they had. I never wanted to commit suicide or anything. It was just a period or inward sinking, loneliness and fear.

Anyone who’s experiencing this, don’t give up. Stay strong and never stop reaching toward God. He really is there, even if you can’t feel His presence.

This is amazing. I went the psychosis route, but still your post describes exactly how I felt then and do now about the spiritual part of the whole thing. Considering how different our situations were, I feel like I could have written your post! (Except the no-psychosis part.) Now that I’m here, I can see how easy it could be for God to bring people into the kingdom through any number of trajectories. That’s how come I can identify with a lot of what the saints write, even though I have had very different particular experiences.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Got to admit, I sometimes enjoy a bit of a scrap, but not when it gets too personal or vicious.

I admit it, too. Actually I think I like it better when it gets personal or vicious, because then I have an unambiguous target. It makes me feel like I’m combating evil, with a side dish of self-righteous pride.

Alan

 

[Marie1234]

…That’s how come I can identify with a lot of what the saints write, even though I have had very different particular experiences.

Me too I’m glad you were able to get through it; it’s soooo difficult.
I know I’m a better person for it and ultimately, it may have saved my soul in the long run. Now I’ll never doubt again and I feel like I can face anything because there is nothing more treacherous, more painful, or more difficult than experiencing the absence of God; the absence of love.

I’m so glad you got through it
God Bless you!

" In a real Dark Night of the Soul it is always three o’clock in the morning, day after day." - F. Scott Fitzgerald