Deacon hailed for pulpit blast at Higgins

[francesco920]

It’s wrong and it’s a grave sin - maybe he would if he repented, and maybe he would repent if he saw a better example of how to live his life. He hasn’t. Why are we so inflamed that he is a sinner? How did Christ ask us to act to further his church?

We are inflamed because the sin he is involved in is one that causes the death of millions. The bishops have been trying the kind and gentle approach for 30 decades and it has not done anything. Please refer to my above post.

You can be sure Higgins sees our behavior as no different than his - he and many others see this as something reduced to a political battle and the public sees nothing Christ-like on our behavior or in an alternative we offer.

I don’t think any of us are advocating for the death of millions of innocent unborn children. As for a Christ-like example, he had twenty+ years of JP II the Great. Stop making excuses for him.

Re-read this thread. How much love and Christ do you feel reading this thread? Do you think anyone will print it out and read it as a devotion?

I feel a lot of love on this thread. The people posting obviously love the millions of unborn children that have been slaughtered since our country’s politicians like Mr. Higgins have adopted the Culture of Death. Their love for these unborn children has led to their feelings of outrage, and rightly so, over the actions of politicians like Mr. Higgins.

So think back to JP II - he wrote “Theology of the Body” in response to the secular abuses of our bodies and sexuality going on in the world. Which would is more in character with Christ and our mission - “Theology of the Body”, or if JP II had stood on a pulpit calling people out who favor abortion? Which is more in tune with Christ’s message?

Right, so people like Mr. Higgins had a Christ-like example for over twenty years and they REJECTED that example. It’s more important to defend Life and the Holy Eucharist than to care about the feelings of people like Mr. Higgins.

This is not about whether we agree or disagree that pro-choice s mortally wrong - we all agree with that. We are discussing how to best live Christ’s mission on earth in response to secular evils.

On this I agree with you. My point is that the approach you are advocating has failed. Please see my previous post to see what I mean.

 

[awalt]

My point is that the approach you are advocating has failed.

Thanks for listening to my opinions, I don’t really have anything further to say without being redundant. We should all pray hard about this.

 

[francesco920]

We should all pray hard about this.

Amen!

 

[dessert]

I wonder if Mr. Higgins and others like him will ever give a public apology for supporting the death of millions of preborn children…

Well he just might if we pray all for him to recieve a revelation of the wrong. If you read some books on abortion and the history of it up to today, there are some hopefull changes.
I don’t know of any particular names but but some very strong supporters did a complete turn around and became totally against abortion. I believe there were some doctors that did this and even tried to undue all that they did. And also nurses who made bad choices in the matter and so we must pray for all the mothers who are making the choice for abortion and all concerned. I think I will e-mail him my opinions How about you?dessert

 

[Stu]

“The lesson here is that the Catholic Church has enough problems and should take greater care before allowing nonpriests to use the church as a forum to advance what clearly was a political agenda,” Higgins said.
Link

How rich.

Ball is in your court Bishop Kmiec. Please do the right thing. Back up your Deacon and stand up to this politician.

Or you could just take Higgins advice on the matter. He seems to think that he knows a lot anyway.

LEAD US BISHOP! PLEASE LEAD US!

 

[Stu]

In the year 390 news came to Milan of a shocking massacre at Thessalonica. Botheric, the governor, had had a popular charioteer imprisoned for seducing a slave in his family, and refused to release him when the public wanted to see him in the races. The enraged mob stoned several officers and Botheric himself was killed. Theodosius ordered reprisals of terrible savagery; he is reported to have countermanded his order but too late. When the people were assembled in the circus, soldiers rushed in and put to the sword some seven thousand persons. Ambrose wrote the emperor a letter, exhorting him to penance, and declaring his offering at the altar would not be received, nor would the Divine Mysteries be celebrated in his presence until atonement had been made. “What was done at Thessalonica is unparalleled in the memory of man… You, who so often have been merciful and pardoned the guilty, have now caused many innocent to perish. The devil wished to wrest from you the crown of piety which was your highest glory. Drive him from you while you may… I write this to you with my own hand that you may read it alone.”

The appeal had its effect; Theodosius appears to have been sincerely repentant. In his funeral oration, Ambrose said of him: He, an emperor, was not ashamed to perform the public penance which lesser individuals shrink from, and to the end of his life he never ceased to grieve for his crime." We have another evidence of Theodosius’ humility and Ambrose’s moral sway. Once at Milan during Mass on a feast day, Theodosius brought his offering to the altar and then remained standing within the rails. Ambrose asked if he wanted anything; the emperor said that he was staying to assist at the Holy Mysteries and to take Communion. At this Ambrose sent his archdeacon with the message: My lord, the law is that you go out and stand with the rest. The purple robe makes princes, not priests." Theodosius apologized, saying he thought the custom was the same as at Constantinople, where his place was within the sanctuary.[5] He then took his place among the laity.
Link

Saint Ambrose, pray for us.

 

[dessert]

Saint Ambrose, pray for us.

Wow that is quite a parralel link.
I too ask for prayer from St. Ambrose. Dessert

 

[Thoughtful]

Thoughtful, please don’t attack me and call me names. That certainly isn’t very Christian, and this isn’t a debate, we are sharing our views. You may want to refresh your knowledge of the forum rules, specifically "Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of personal attacks. " If you disagree you have a right to say so and express your opinion, as I have mine.

I judged his actions not him - and I said nothing derogatory about him as a person. We are discussing the situation, and whether we agree or not. I tried to suggest that people consider the mission of Jesus, and not just point to an isolated rebuke he made of someone. God is certainly a God of both judgment and mercy, but what is his message on how we are to live?

Thank you for prayerfully considering my opinions.

Awalt, I’m sorry I offended you. I (long-time lurker) have found the majority of your posts usually informative and very good.

However, I take issue with your opinion

awalt quote: "I am sorry, this Deacon showed no love, he **assumed the power **and infighting ways of the secular world, he **attempted to force another to his view **through embarrassment and public ridicule, and he **showed no example of God’s reconciling love **to sinners".

Those are pretty judgemental words against this man’s actions. Correct me if I’m wrong, but one of the points you are making (referring to Jesus’ mission) is that publically rebuking someone’s actions or behaviors is not the way a Christian should behave.

One cannot assume what was in the deacon’s heart and mind when he spoke those words from the pulpit. Perhaps he thought he was acting out of love, perhaps he was attempting to force others to see God’s will (not his), and perhaps it was an attempt at bringing someone to reconcilation with the church (bitter medicine). .

I understand the point that you are making about Christ’s mission (in fact, that was what was making the strongest points with me), however, all I’m saying is that your comments kind of **sounded **like the type of comments you are disagreeing with, that’s all.

I believe that many reactions to the deacon’s words are a response to the “why” it was done, not necessarily "how" it was done. Perhaps, the “how” could have been done more diplomatically, fine…

My question is “why” did he think it was necessary and should that nullify the “how.”

Peace awalt,

 

[chicago]

As Siskel and Ebert would say----

Otherwise known as James and John, the “Sons of Thunder”.

 

[Brendan]

Not to mention, even Jesus was charitable when he was chastizing the powerful.

Matthew 23:23-27

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.

Yes, Christ was very charitable when critizing others.

It have been far more charitable for the deacon to all all pro-abort politicians “blind guides”, “full of extortion”, “whitewashed tombs” and “full of all uncleanness”. After all, those are Christ’s own words.

 

[contramundum7]

Deacon hailed for pulpit blast at Higgins

Anti-abortion group says cleric ‘did his job’

The Buffalo Regional Right to Life Committee on Wednesday hailed a deacon who criticized Rep. Brian Higgins during Sunday Mass in St. Thomas Aquinas Catholic Church. Deacon Tom McDonnell’s rebuke of the Buffalo Democrat for voting for federal funding for embryonic stem cell research led Higgins to walk out of the church during his sermon.
“God bless the deacon a thousand times. He did his job. If every bishop, every clergy member of all faiths did their jobs, we wouldn’t have the shedding of innocent life in our country,” said Stacey Vogel of the Buffalo Regional Right to Life Committee.

more…

Amen - Not to be rude, but i think America has more than its share of wimps when it comes to speaking out…

 

[contramundum7]

Well he just might if we pray all for him to recieve a revelation of the wrong. If you read some books on abortion and the history of it up to today, there are some hopefull changes.
I don’t know of any particular names but but some very strong supporters did a complete turn around and became totally against abortion. I believe there were some doctors that did this and even tried to undue all that they did. And also nurses who made bad choices in the matter and so we must pray for all the mothers who are making the choice for abortion and all concerned. I think I will e-mail him my opinions How about you?dessert

OK, i agree, but there’s no way to undo an abortion…
I agree with the other person who said that the bishops have been taking the “soft” way (not his/her words) for too long. In fact, i don’t think the nice way is the way to go at all. Jesus wasn’t always Nice & never at the expense of truth.
What a lot of compassionate people (so-called) seem to overlook is that these “sinners” are choosing to do something they know the Catholic Church is against… I fail to see why i should be overly kind to such a person… its like being nice to the devil, in a way… I think we should treat everyone with respect, but i don’t think we should treat their evil views (much less their actions) with any kind of respect whatsoever…
What… Are we going to “love” people all the way to Hell?
I like that saying “scare the hell out of…”…
We should be willing to SCARE people into Heaven if that’s the only we can get them there… And it IS!!.. If Jesus’ crucifixion isn’t scary, i don’t know what is… It shows the absolute horror of evil… (sin)…& the price that had to be paid… I think we forget about Christ’s sufferings too much…

 

[chicago]

No there isn’t, in fact what Mr. Higgins is doing is a million times worse than what the Pharisees did.

And what the deacon said WAS in response to what Mr. Higgins did. It was in response to Mr. Higgins’ active participation in the killing of innocent human beings. It was in response to Mr. Higgins and others like him going around and saying proudly “I’m a pro-choice Catholic! The Church is wrong.” By saying this, they are confusing Catholics and turning them against the Church.

But he wasn’t directly doing this by simply attending that Mass. It’s all about context. In another context (say even the weekly bulletin), it may well have been quite callled for for the deacon to extol his parishioners to contact Rep. Higgins, specifically, and express their concerns… perhaps even challenging him upon his purported Catholic beliefs. Using the homily with him in the congregation as an opportunity to make a personally aimed public rebuke just wasn’t the time or place for it.

 

[Brendan]

Using the homily with him in the congregation as an opportunity to make a personally aimed public rebuke just wasn’t the time or place for it.

Personally aimed, or a crystal clear statement of Church teaching?

As far as it being a rebuke, as we have already seen, Christ Himself gave public rebukes, so it can’t be wrong.

And the reproachment of sinners is a Church defined Spritual Work of Mercy.

The Deacon was showing God’s mercy to Rep. Higgins.

 

[chicago]

Personally aimed, or a crystal clear statement of Church teaching?

If he called him out personally, even mentioning his presence with the congregation that day, in the homily then it was certainly “personally aimed”, which is, in my assessment the only real problem and cause of genuine concern as to why the matter became ultimately troublesome.

The Deacon was showing God’s mercy to Rep. Higgins.

There would have been a better time and place to do it. As things stood, it was obviously taken wrong by many. This backfiring ought to have been forseen and avoided. Clearly, it failed to help in moving anything forward and only incensed many, merely strengthening already existing prejudices among the congregation rather than changing hearts and minds while ennobling proper action.

 

[Adonis33]

I like this quote:

“You shouldn’t care so much about Brian’s feelings so much as Brian’s salvation,” Vogel said.

I’m a little shocked by the posts, we have a Representative who is supporting legislation that goes contrary to what the magisterium is teaching, and the deacon gets chastized???

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I like this quote:

“You shouldn’t care so much about Brian’s feelings so much as Brian’s salvation,” Vogel said.

I’m a little shocked by the posts, we have a Representative who is supporting legislation that goes contrary to what the magisterium is teaching, and the deacon gets chastized???

Then the Bishop should address the problem, but a deacon should not be using the homely at Mass, to publically humiliate the man.

I’m surprised there’s so much agreement in this thread, for this action, which lacked compasion and charity.

Again, Jesus didn’t go out and attack the Pharasees, they came to him and attacked him. This is what our Lord responded to.

Jim

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Our Lord also physicaly removed the moneychangers from the temple and he didn’t mince any words when he did it.

What’s so outlandish about a deacon rebuking a baby murder supporter?

If such a public heretic is not called out before the members of the church the members might get the idea that their public heresy is tolerated by the church.

Also realize that by promoting legalized abortion the person has already excommunicated themself.

Deacons, priests, and bishops should teach their parishoners about public heretics and should protect the Sacrament of the Eucharist from people who would committ sacriledge by receiving after being in public heresy.

If they won’t listen to the Church Jesus said that they should be “treated as a publican and a sinner.”

Jesus also said not to put what was Holy before dogs and also said not to cast our pearls before the swine.

Allowing public heretics to sacriledge the Eucharist does just that.

 

[francesco920]

I like this quote:

“You shouldn’t care so much about Brian’s feelings so much as Brian’s salvation,” Vogel said.

I’m a little shocked by the posts, we have a Representative who is supporting legislation that goes contrary to what the magisterium is teaching, and the deacon gets chastized???

It’s amazing, isn’t it? It almost makes me feel like Alice in Wonderland!

 

[Dale_M]

I’m a little shocked by the posts, we have a Representative who is supporting legislation that goes contrary to what the magisterium is teaching, and the deacon gets chastized???

He was criticized, not for speaking out against embryonic stem cell research, but for publicly denouncing a member of the congregation in attendance by name. The first element is praise-worthy, but the second was an abuse.