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Spiller
Guest
No way – the deacon is correct on this one. It’s up to the local ordinary. Around here, transitional deacons wear the collar. Permanent ones do not.
- Status
S
Spiller
Guest
No, it would not be safe to say that.
I guess I can add Catholic Christian to my profile. Bi-ritual too! How does one edit that?
C
Chatter163
Guest
Then you would be fairly wrong. Deacons are assigned by their bishops to parishes, not by pastors. It is true that they tend to be assigned to their own parishes, or parishes of their choosing, but it is the bishop who makes that determination.
In fact, a pastor that I know had a conflict and discharged his deacon, sending him away without the bishop’s knowledge. That pastor himself was ultimately relieved of duty, as he had no right to make such a move.
S
Spiller
Guest
I never said anything about “discharging” a deacon. Please don’t infer I did…
You really don’t think a pastor could direct a deacon to stand-down from performing the liturgical role of a deacon at a Mass if the deacon was doing something wrong (eg. vesting incorrectly) and was obstinate about it?
He certainly could…
D
Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
I looked at your profile again and it still has not changed. Suffice to say, that in common usage, all Catholics are Christian, but not all Christians are Catholic. What do you mean bi-ritual. If I am not too nosy, why do you feel it necessary to make that distinction. If I am, simply tell me, and it’s over. Being the computer illiterate that I am, I am not the one to tell you how to edit it.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
I agree with you here. The pastor could go a lot further than just this. As far as the hierarchy goes, we deacons are on the bottom. Our ministry is a ministry of service. If we are doing things wrong and most especially are obstinate about it, the pastor would indeed be remiss if he did not correct us, and if that fails, dismiss us.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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ProVobis
Guest
Or you could try Christian Catholic and really start a war.
T
THurifer2
Guest
You are incorrect. Canon Law says clerics have the right to wear collars.
But for canon 288, these considerations would argue in favor of the requirement that permanent deacons must ordinarily wear clerical dress and use the clerical style of address. This canon recognizes that, as clerics, permanent deacons have a right to clerical dress but at the same time permits them not to make use of their privilege of clerical dress and style of address, unless particular law makes a contrary provision and requires that permanent deacons wear clerical dress. Thus, unless the diocesan bishop has decreed that permanent deacons wear clerical dress, they are not required-by virtue of canon 288-to avail themselves of the privilege of clerical dress.
B
belgianwaffles9
Guest
Exactly. Because some priests truly think the attention should be on them. Thats why they’d rather have the people see their face than turn around and face Christ.
I thank you for spending your precious money on buying dalmatics. If you should like to buy any more in the future, i can promise you that there ARE small companies which make great vestments for much cheaper than that.
Also, I think it would be extremely fun, and deeply spirritual, to make one’s own vestments.
I’m still with Spiller on this one. I wonder which bishops would actually allow priests to do away with the chasuble.
I really dislike that style of dalmatic. Its legal, and better than nothing, but I find them extremely unattractive. What i dont get is how someone like you, who has (justly, i feel) complained so strongly about your deacon looking too much like a priest, would favor that style of dalmatic over the more traditional style, which leaves basically zero room for confusion.
T
THurifer2
Guest
THIS THREAD talks about bishops not being able to forbid deacons from wearing collars
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
Please tell me, what did I ever do to you to deserve this. To do one button takes me 1/2 hour or more. Now vestments?
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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Deacon_Ed
Guest
Yes, the pastor can tell the deacon not to serve and can refuse to schedule him – but that will usually get him invited to the bishops office for a discussion regarding the fact that the deacon serves at the bishops pleasure under the supervision of the pastor. If there is a good reason for not scheduling him, then the bishop or pastor may ask to have the deacon transferred.
I’m not sure why any deacon would want to wear a Byzantine miter. In fact, in my Latin parish I wouldn’t even think of wearing my Byzantine vestments while at my Eastern parish I think nothing of it (or of the fact that I wear a Roman collar there but not at the Latin parish).
Deacon Ed
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EasterJoy
Guest
Martha, Martha, you worry about many things…
PS You mean for *deacons *to make their own vestments? Really? Duuude…they hardly have time to write their homilies!!
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Brendan
Guest
Not quite true. Canon Law (284) gives the local Bishop’s conference the authority to set clerical dress, not the local Ordinary.
Now a bishop may REQUEST that certain clerics not dress in clerical attire, but he cannot deny them the right to do so absent Ecclesial censure.
B
belgianwaffles9
Guest
Please tell me, what did I ever do to you to deserve this. To do one button takes me 1/2 hour or more. Now vestments?
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
I’m not suggesting you personally make all your own vestments. I merely said i would find it fun and beneficial to make vestments. I know that many groups of nuns do a great deal of work with vestments, and think its great. its a great way to contribute to the liturgy in an unusual way. Its not that hard, and pretty cheap to make a decent chasuble, or at least a stole or something.
EasterJoy:
I worry about too many things? Besides that fact that your comment kinda came out of left feild there with absolutely no context, might i suggest that SOMEONE has to worry about things as important as the liturgy, since most priests and bishops I’ve had experience with arent worrying, or even thinking, about it at all.
S
Spiller
Guest
Is there are distinction between “Christian Catholic” (a retired priest says that all the time around here) and “Catholic Christian” (I tend top use that sometimes)?Or you could try Christian Catholic and really start a war.
S
Spiller
Guest
I am sorry, you are wrong. It’s up to the local ordinary. Work with it…
S
Spiller
Guest
You’re certainly not a canonist are you! LOL! Neither am I but it appears I’m far less confused then you are:
**
Can. 284 **“Clerics are to wear suitable ecclesiastical garb according to the norms issued by the conference of bishops and according to legitimate local customs.”
Oppsie, seems like game over! Permanent deacons have NEVER worn clerics here. Wait, it gets better:
Can. 288 The prescripts of cann. ⇒ 284, ⇒ 285, §§3 and 4, ⇒ 286, and ⇒ 287, §2 do not bind permanent deacons unless particular law establishes otherwise.
Checkmate.
S
Spiller
Guest
Yeah? How about a half dozen URLs?
It could be that the priest cannot physically get into a chasuble or possibly a heat issue, but there are work-arounds for both conditions.
Why? It’s made from good, durable material that can be laundered at home. It’s a nice pattern/cut – as long as one does not try to look like a priest. I appreciate the neck treatment. They are priced right.
Why do you “really dislike” them?
C
cameron_lansing
Guest
OK. I’m just a permanent deacon and a canonist and a former director of deacons. So what would I know?
I see no basis for the conclusion that a permanent deacon has the right to wear clerical attire such as a Roman collar. The code establishes a basis of exception from an otherwise general obligation. This is not the same as an assertion of a right. They are different logical categories.
Unless particular law determines otherwise, canon 288 exempts permanent deacons from the prescription of canon 284 (which people can look up, but also see canon 669 regarding clerical religious).
The current particular law governing the clerical attire of deacons within our episcopal conference is expressed in the National Directory for the Formation, Ministry, and And Life of Permanent Deacons in the United States, chapter 2, norm 12, which references paragraph 89:
“The Code of Canon Law does not oblige permanent deacons to wear an ecclesiastical garb. Further, because they are more prominent and active in secular professions and society, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops specifies that permanent deacons should resemble the lay faithful in dress and matters of lifestyle. Each ordinary should, however, determine and promulgate any exceptions to this law, as well as specify the appropriate clerical attire. (89)”
Footnote 97 within the text of paragraph 89, rather than in the norm itself, continues:
“Liturgical books clearly specify the liturgical garb of a deacon for various rites and liturgical celebrations. Here, the intent is to bring about harmony between dioceses, especially on a provincial level, as to the appropriate clerical attire, if any, for other formal clerical ministries of deacons. In some places, deacons wear a clerical shirt and Roman collar; others wear pectoral crosses or deacon lapel pins, while still others wear a modified dress shirt. There is confusion about what is appropriate clerical attire among deacons themselves and among the lay faithful. Recognizing the geographical and social diversity that exists in our country, the Bishops’ Committee on the Diaconate offers this particular law as a practical response to a national concern.”
This suggests to me that the USCCB sees a primary value in the resemblance of deacons with the lay faithful since it mentions that point in text of the norm itself. The expression of intent for the norm, harmony between dioceses, especially on a provincial level, is strangely relegated to a footnote in the source paragraph.
So I would conclude that the emphasis is to be placed on the resemblance mentioned in the norm itself, the footnote notwithstanding. Moreover, as I recall the 1984 Norms of the USCCB on the Permanent Diaconate, it was not envisioned that permanent deacons would normally wear clerical attire.
Having spoken about this issue with three of the former USCCB executive secretaries of the permanent deacons (Sam Taub, Joe Pistone, and Bill Dietwig), I cannot recall any of them in favor of making clerical attire for deacons the common practice
Additionally, as I reflect on my own experience of some 18 years as a deacon, I do not believe that clerical attire was ever once necessary to identify me as a deacon and a Catholic cleric, in any ministerial situation in which I found myself. In fact, when I minister apart from liturgical settings wearing secular clothing or even administer any rites that call for liturgical vesture, I make it a point to identify myself as a deacon. That seems to have been sufficient. It also forfends any impression that I am a priest, and that is a good thing for priests, deacons, and the faithful.
But as the saying goes, what would I know? By the way, I have made stoles and dalmatics under the tutelage of my gifted wife. I quickly realized the time was better allotted to the functions for which I was ordained.
I see no basis for the conclusion that a permanent deacon has the right to wear clerical attire such as a Roman collar. The code establishes a basis of exception from an otherwise general obligation. This is not the same as an assertion of a right. They are different logical categories.
Unless particular law determines otherwise, canon 288 exempts permanent deacons from the prescription of canon 284 (which people can look up, but also see canon 669 regarding clerical religious).
The current particular law governing the clerical attire of deacons within our episcopal conference is expressed in the National Directory for the Formation, Ministry, and And Life of Permanent Deacons in the United States, chapter 2, norm 12, which references paragraph 89:
“The Code of Canon Law does not oblige permanent deacons to wear an ecclesiastical garb. Further, because they are more prominent and active in secular professions and society, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops specifies that permanent deacons should resemble the lay faithful in dress and matters of lifestyle. Each ordinary should, however, determine and promulgate any exceptions to this law, as well as specify the appropriate clerical attire. (89)”
Footnote 97 within the text of paragraph 89, rather than in the norm itself, continues:
“Liturgical books clearly specify the liturgical garb of a deacon for various rites and liturgical celebrations. Here, the intent is to bring about harmony between dioceses, especially on a provincial level, as to the appropriate clerical attire, if any, for other formal clerical ministries of deacons. In some places, deacons wear a clerical shirt and Roman collar; others wear pectoral crosses or deacon lapel pins, while still others wear a modified dress shirt. There is confusion about what is appropriate clerical attire among deacons themselves and among the lay faithful. Recognizing the geographical and social diversity that exists in our country, the Bishops’ Committee on the Diaconate offers this particular law as a practical response to a national concern.”
This suggests to me that the USCCB sees a primary value in the resemblance of deacons with the lay faithful since it mentions that point in text of the norm itself. The expression of intent for the norm, harmony between dioceses, especially on a provincial level, is strangely relegated to a footnote in the source paragraph.
So I would conclude that the emphasis is to be placed on the resemblance mentioned in the norm itself, the footnote notwithstanding. Moreover, as I recall the 1984 Norms of the USCCB on the Permanent Diaconate, it was not envisioned that permanent deacons would normally wear clerical attire.
Having spoken about this issue with three of the former USCCB executive secretaries of the permanent deacons (Sam Taub, Joe Pistone, and Bill Dietwig), I cannot recall any of them in favor of making clerical attire for deacons the common practice
Additionally, as I reflect on my own experience of some 18 years as a deacon, I do not believe that clerical attire was ever once necessary to identify me as a deacon and a Catholic cleric, in any ministerial situation in which I found myself. In fact, when I minister apart from liturgical settings wearing secular clothing or even administer any rites that call for liturgical vesture, I make it a point to identify myself as a deacon. That seems to have been sufficient. It also forfends any impression that I am a priest, and that is a good thing for priests, deacons, and the faithful.
But as the saying goes, what would I know?
By the way, I have made stoles and dalmatics under the tutelage of my gifted wife. I quickly realized the time was better allotted to the functions for which I was ordained.- Status