Dealing with criticism in my parish community when discussing infertility treatment

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on_the_hill said:
And my dad was really offended by that remark, because he couldn’t discern the difference. To him, fatalistic suffering was almost noble. 🤷 :rolleyes:
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Ugh…I have a sister like that. It wouldn’t matter if she got a paper cut or lost a limb, she’d “offer up her suffering and accept it, for this terrible fate was hers”.

I on the other hand would deliberately be an awkward dick and give her a box of plasters 😛

Martyrdom is admirable, but deliberately going out of ones way in pursuit of it, especially over trivial things isn’t.
 
on_the_hill said:
O.k., I can see that part of it. However, their marital embrace is uniative, their intent is ordered toward procreation. They are not violating either of those principles.

I doubt wholeheartedly that a couple going through IVF views their children as any more of a material good than a couple going through adoption or a couple conceiving on their own. I have yet to meet a person who says, “I didn’t want children. I had children because it’s what God wants.” Can you imagine growing up with parents who didn’t want you? Of course, *I *wanted children. My wife wanted children.

Granted, there are people who have children for selfish reasons.
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I think you are missing the point.

It isn’t about “having children.”

It is about every zygote actually BEING a child and to “have children” via artificial methods means there are countless real children being disposed of as if they don’t matter. It is like having a black market that deals in children and we don’t care about all those that are mistreated or disposed of as long as we “have our child.”

The couple are not actually “being selfish” in having and raising the child that they do, but they are overlooking the fact that the very means they have chosen to do so results in a demeaning and artificial “marketing” of children in general as if children are a commodity to be acquired by any means rather than as a “gift” of precious life given to them by the Creator of that life himself.
 
Peter_Plato said:
I think you are missing the point.

It isn’t about “having children.”

It is about every zygote actually BEING a child and to “have children” via artificial methods means there are countless real children being disposed of as if they don’t matter. It is like having a black market that deals in children and we don’t care about all those that are mistreated or disposed of as long as we “have our child.”

The couple are not actually “being selfish” in having and raising the child that they do, but they are overlooking the fact that the very means they have chosen to do so results in a demeaning and artificial “marketing” of children in general as if children are a commodity to be acquired by any means rather than as a “gift” of precious life given to them by the Creator of that life himself.
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I have to confess, I do struggle to see the objection to the creation of a zygote outside of the womb. The disposal of extra zygotes? Disgusting I agree their their formulation? I am doubtful

The first point need to consider is that by undertaking IVF for just “wanting a child” this is no different than the usual way of conceiving via carnal means. Both forms of conception require intent behind the act and a desire for children, in fact I would say IVF indicates an even greater desire to sire children since it is far more draining and expensive than the typical manner.

The second is lacking the “warmth” behind the marital union, I actually fins this irrelevant. My sister absolutely loathes her husband (long story) yet has still born four children with him. There was little or no warmth behind their union, certainly no affection whatsoever but this does not reflect in the manner they treat their offspring. Creation via typical marital relations does not equate affection, and unless told the child will never know how they were conceived.

I do have other thoughts on the matter, but I am rather tired and am struggling to put them into logical statements right now, perhaps later on.
 
UnCatholicBride said:
I firmly believe that my decisions as to the method that I become pregnant are between my husband, myself, and God- and not between my husband, myself, and the Church.
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:confused:
What? Is the Church the evil stepmother and God the “nice” one who will “understand” if you choose to go against the Church which He established and promised He would protect from teaching error? God and the Church are not at odds, so you should not speak as if that is a good excuse. I’ve seen that all too often and it just isn’t true.
 
laircy said:
:confused:
What? Is the Church the evil stepmother and God the “nice” one who will “understand” if you choose to go against the Church which He established and promised He would protect from teaching error? God and the Church are not at odds, so you should not speak as if that is a good excuse. I’ve seen that all too often and it just isn’t true.
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This is the excuse that many use when they want to go against God.

With this excuse, no explanations are needed. 🤷
 
laircy said:
:confused:
What? Is the Church the evil stepmother and God the “nice” one who will “understand” if you choose to go against the Church which He established and promised He would protect from teaching error? God and the Church are not at odds, so you should not speak as if that is a good excuse. I’ve seen that all too often and it just isn’t true.
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…So why has it had such a dramatic U-turn on the matter of slavery (I believe even St. Augustine supported it)? Unless now it is defying the will of our Lord. Either way it either means the current church teaching is a lie, or it wasn’t quite right on the matter the first time.

Along this line of thought too, why has the Church not condemned capital punishment? Is slaughter pleasing to our lord? (The ten commandments seem to suggest otherwise), because apparently the Church still hasn’t made it’s mind up on it.

I can list more examples when what Jesus taught and the Church did have not always been in line.
 
UnCatholicBride said:
Because once they’re implanted, that’s what they are- a human embryo.

Technically they’re a human blastocyst at the stage of development of transfer, but that’s just splicing hairs.

After 8 weeks of gestation they are a human fetus.

After 40 weeks of an uncomplicated pregnancy, it is a human newborn.
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Absolutely true as pure biological terms ^. However, using these biological terms makes it easier to ignore that these are babies we are talking about. The words chosen can have an effect on our perceptions, as Peter Plato says here,
Peter_Plato said:
The problem here is that this “difference” is a semantic one that is used to devalue, unnecessarily, the life of the blastocyst or embryo as if it were of less value than a baby, when, in fact, it doesn’t.
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It is not possible to take something up with God when you are ignoring His Church.
 
white_sheep said:
It is not possible to take something up with God when you are ignoring His Church.
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I cannot disagree enough, see above and earlier on in this thread.

Were the cardinals who objected to the crass rule of Alexander VI, the legendary “bad” pope against God? Think carefully, he was Christ’s Vicar after all.
 
Viewer said:
…So why has it had such a dramatic U-turn on the matter of slavery (I believe even St. Augustine supported it)? Unless now it is defying the will of our Lord. Either way it either means the current church teaching is a lie, or it wasn’t quite right on the matter the first time.

Along this line of thought too, why has the Church not condemned capital punishment? Is slaughter pleasing to our lord? (The ten commandments seem to suggest otherwise), because apparently the Church still hasn’t made it’s mind up on it.

I can list more examples when what Jesus taught and the Church did have not always been in line.
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The Church hasn’t condemned capital punishment? says who?
Thou shall not kill. that includes capital punishment and abortion
 
Viewer said:
I cannot disagree enough
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I agree. You can’t disagree enough for it to change the truth of what I said. Jesus said, and I paraphrase: “Yea, though they be hypocrites, they sitteth upon the seat of Moses and have real authority, do what they say”, then later “whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”. The Church has the authority and is here exactly to tell us what is right and wrong according to God and the power to make it stick and is guided by the Holy Ghost, especially insofar as defining matters of doctrine and morals is concerned, and we are to be obedient to the Church.
 
Viewer said:
But there is a clear distinction in self denial, and not all of it is good.

When someone decides to give up drinking to help fund their childrens college fund, this is a form of self sacrifice for a greater good.

When someone decides to beat themselves with a whip for fun, this is not carrying a cross, but something far more disturbing.

It is one thing to endure ones lot, but it is another to deliberately seek out and willingly inflict it upon oneself. Not trying to better your lot is inflicting it upon yourself by wallowing in self pity.
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Dear one,

For the most part, those who suffer infertility do not willingly inflict it on themselves. Are you suggesting that infertile couples that do not undergo IVF are deliberately seeking and willingly inflicting their childlessness on themselves? Because that is how your comments sound to me.

Infertility is a disease and I in no way advocate it not be treated. There are moral treatments that, unlike IUI and IVF, actually aim to diagnose and treat the underlying causes of this disease. But for some people treatments will fail. While some ART treatments might be in a morally grey area, there is no question about the stance of the Catholic Church on the morality of IVF. At that point, carrying their cross and uniting their suffering with the suffering of Christ (who took his cross on willingly as well and did not run away from it although he could) might be the only thing one can do without putting their eternal soul at risk.
 
Viewer said:
I cannot disagree enough, see above and earlier on in this thread.

Were the cardinals who objected to the crass rule of Alexander VI, the legendary “bad” pope against God? Think carefully, he was Christ’s Vicar after all.
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They weren’t acting against Church teaching either. The Pope is not the Church. The person who fills the office of Vicar is not infallibly moral nor infallible as a person. Think carefully,
 
Viewer said:
…So why has it had such a dramatic U-turn on the matter of slavery (I believe even St. Augustine supported it)? Unless now it is defying the will of our Lord. Either way it either means the current church teaching is a lie, or it wasn’t quite right on the matter the first time.

Along this line of thought too, why has the Church not condemned capital punishment? Is slaughter pleasing to our lord? (The ten commandments seem to suggest otherwise), because apparently the Church still hasn’t made it’s mind up on it.

I can list more examples when what Jesus taught and the Church did have not always been in line.
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There has not been a teaching in Favour of enforced slavery. I think this point was made previously. IVF, Homosexuality, etc are the subject of teachings. Every utterance of a Church spokesperson, church father, or every failure to act - these are not teachings.

The Church in the catechism teaches that there is almost no conceivable scenario in the modern world in which Capital punishment is justified. The church also teaches that there are circumstances when killing is justified, eg war, self defence etc. the intent is crucial.
 
You call yourself “UnCatholic” and state your religion as “Cafeteria” Catholic. Are you proud of this and do you think you would be cheered on here at a Catholic site? You are sinning and the people at your church are showing you mercy by trying to point this out. Your so called peaceful feelings have led you deeply astray. Please don’t confuse mere feelings with a message from God and try to convince yourself your particular sin is pleasing to Him. It isn’t. You will probably continue on because you are bound and determined to have your way at any cost to your soul. How sad this must make God. I will pray that you listen to the good people at your parish. If you can’t be obedient to God’s will then at least be quiet about it. Adoption would be a noble choice.
 
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