Dear Protestant: Where Did You Get Your Bible?

[dawid]

so there is public revelation and what is the other , private? Canon is closed but not divine revelation on doctrinal matters , according to CC. That is, Tradition, equal to Writ, is not closed in terms of defining declarations. As an example, the tradition of infallibility and IC and Assumption, being tradition from afar off, are relatively recently declared Tradition, capital T ,equal to Writ declaration.

Hi benhur

Divine revelation is manifest in Sacred Scripture.

The Church defined the canon through its authority when there was uncertainty about the NT and later when there was debate about the Hebrew Scriptures.
In the same way the Church settled matters of Doctrine.
The time of the declaration of Tradition or Doctrine has therefore no bearing on its validity.

Doctrine has Sacred Scripture as its norm and once pronounced through the Church’s authority may not be changed as it is deemed the inspired interpretation and implementation of Sacred Scripture.

Discipline however may be adapted as required.

I hope this offers some clarity.

Regards
d

 

[Peter_J]

And the Protestant position lacks in conformity to one mind and judgment as St Paul so urged us to come to.

What about the Orthodox?

 

[rcwitness]

What about the Orthodox?

They lack very little, in relation to the fullness of the deposit. As for among each other, this probably shows, no? Do they have significant differences within Orthodoxy? I’m sure not nearly as extreme as Protestant

 

[Peter_J]

When St. Paul said “one mind”, I don’t think he meant literally one person’s mind.

 

[rcwitness]

When St. Paul said “one mind”, I don’t think he meant literally one person’s mind.

1 Co 2

The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.“For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[benhur]

1 Co 2

The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.“For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

Hi rc,

The spiritual man judges all things and not just a pope or a council or a magisterium. When one is right it is only because of divine revelation of His mind, as in Peter’s declaration of whom Jesus was, or when Rome and Anthasius fought for the Trinity or when the O’s resisted Rome supremacy, or as Luther before his inquisitors. All are each other’s check and balance and in that regard we are all popes.In that regard Canon can be formalized but not because we would be lost or ignorant otherwise.

Blessings

 

[dawid]

The spiritual man judges all things and not just a pope or a council or a magisterium. When one is right it is only because of divine revelation of His mind, as in Peter’s declaration of whom Jesus was, or when Rome and Anthasius fought for the Trinity or when the O’s resisted Rome supremacy, or as Luther before his inquisitors. All are each other’s check and balance and in that regard we are all popes.In that regard Canon can be formalized but not because we would be lost or ignorant otherwise.

Hi benhur

Judging by that comment you do not believe in the inerrancy of Scripture concerning the primacy of Peter. The apostles and early Church fathers did believe and behaved according to that primacy.

How do you know that the Orthodox Churches were right in that matter or that Luther was correct? They have no delegated authority according to Scripture.

If you are not infallible in your interpretation of Scripture, then your opinion is at the very least, questionable. If you believe that the pope is not infallible in matters of faith, then his “opinions” are still at least as good as yours.

Should you compare what the protestant reformers did, you will find that they differ from the 40,000 faith communities that claim to follow them.

There can only be one truth!

Regards
d

 

[rcwitness]

Hi rc,
The spiritual man judges all things and not just a pope or a council or a magisterium.

Yes. The Spiritual man judges for himself how to behave and what to believe. He is not without control of himself. “The Spirit searches all things” - and so the spiritually guided man discern all things.

But you are contrasting something different when you bring in Church leaders and authority. And for that matter, where is Scripture mentioned here? Why does Paul not tell us that the Spiritual man is to be ruled by Scripture?

When one is right it is only because of divine revelation of His mind, as in Peter’s declaration of whom Jesus was, or when Rome and Anthasius fought for the Trinity or when the O’s resisted Rome supremacy, or as Luther before his inquisitors. All are each other’s check and balance and in that regard we are all popes.In that regard Canon can be formalized but not because we would be lost or ignorant otherwise.

Do you not think that you are running a little wild with this? You are cherry picking matters that you, personally, happen to agree with. What you somehow ignore, is that you do not have the same mind and judgment as Martin in all his 95 thesis, or with the Orthodox articles of faith concerning Baptism, Confirmation or Eucharist.

“When one is right” concerning matters of faith and morals, yes, they are led by the Spirit and obedient to the Church, for the sake of the Lord. Many times, we are faced with division among Christians.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Hi rc,

The spiritual man judges all things and not just a pope or a council or a magisterium. When one is right it is only because of divine revelation of His mind, as in Peter’s declaration of whom Jesus was, or when Rome and Anthasius fought for the Trinity or when the O’s resisted Rome supremacy, or as Luther before his inquisitors. All are each other’s check and balance and in that regard we are all popes.In that regard Canon can be formalized but not because we would be lost or ignorant otherwise.

Blessings

“When one is right it is only because of divine revelation of His mind.” Not quite sure what this statement means. Odd phraseology. You mean, divine revelation from God to one’s mind? In that case, I’ve always wondered, why did Jesus send out apostles and evangelists, why scripture at all, why a teaching Church, when God can directly illuminate our minds? Why be so indirect?

It’s obvious God doesn’t illuminate us all equally, observing the diversity of ideas about Him and His teachings.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi rc,

The spiritual man judges all things and not just a pope or a council or a magisterium. When one is right it is only because of divine revelation of His mind, as in Peter’s declaration of whom Jesus was, or when Rome and Anthasius fought for the Trinity or when the O’s resisted Rome supremacy, or as Luther before his inquisitors. All are each other’s check and balance and in that regard we are all popes.In that regard Canon can be formalized but not because we would be lost or ignorant otherwise.

Blessings

Hi Ben

But what if we don’t have a informed conscience?

Do you think it’s possible to create a little Jesus in our head, one that is not in conformity with reality?

 

[benhur]

Judging by that comment you do not believe in the inerrancy of Scripture concerning the primacy of Peter. The apostles and early Church fathers did believe and behaved according to that primacy.

Hi d,

Well, I believe in biblical inerrancy but not CC interpretation of Peter’s “primacy”. Ditto for CC interpretation of History/fathers of early church.

How do you know that the Orthodox Churches were right in that matter or that Luther was correct? They have no delegated authority according to Scripture.

Straw man argument. To delegate oneself authority to then legitimize yourself is circular. I mean really how do you know except that the CC says so about herself.

If you are not infallible in your interpretation of Scripture, then your opinion is at the very least, questionable. If you believe that the pope is not infallible in matters of faith, then his “opinions” are still at least as good as yours.

Agreed. I did state as such. The individual, the pope , a council etc., each with the potential to be one with the mind of Christ.

Should you compare what the protestant reformers did, you will find that they differ from the 40,000 faith communities that claim to follow them.

Yes, the catch all stumbling block for Catholics. Indeed it takes a miracle to see beyond that unfortunate reality.

There can only be one truth!

Amen. As salvation was of the Jews, so salvation is today in Christ, as borne by the Christian/Community.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Hi Ben

But what if we don’t have a informed conscience?

Do you think it’s possible to create a little Jesus in our head, one that is not in conformity with reality?

Hi La,

As I posted, we can only be right on any matter thru God, and then that in the spiritual man, heart/ soul, mind /conscience.

It is totally possible to create God/Jesus in our own image, instead of vice versa. One must be born again to receive divine revelation, or to have an “informed conscience” though it is much more also . It is also a growth process, less of us, more of Him, in heart/mind/conscience matters.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

“When one is right it is only because of divine revelation of His mind.” Not quite sure what this statement means. Odd phraseology. You mean, divine revelation from God to one’s mind? In that case, I’ve always wondered, why did Jesus send out apostles and evangelists, why scripture at all, why a teaching Church, when God can directly illuminate our minds? Why be so indirect?

It’s obvious God doesn’t illuminate us all equally, observing the diversity of ideas about Him and His teachings.

Hi M,

It is the context of "hearing/reading/ seeing something.So we hear about a church with 73 books and one with 66 books and their respective rationales. Divine assistance is needed on the matter (just as it was in the writing and receiving and understanding of first recipients) I also used Peter’s "illumination’. The Father illumined, pieced together, all that Peter had ever heard/seen concerning the Christ. That includes his parents and rabbis and Writ, and High priest and Sanhedrin , and Pharisees, Jesus etc etc.

Of course, “faith cometh by hearing and that by the word of God. And no one comes to the Son unless drawn by the Father, and by the foolishness of preaching God chose man to be saved”.

Agreed illumination, faith , is not equally distributed beyond salvation . On one hand we are taught of His good will , that He gifts as He pleases, and on the other hand , we are told to seek like no one else, to dig deep and deeper and He will reward.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

But you are contrasting something different when you bring in Church leaders and authority. And for that matter, where is Scripture mentioned here? Why does Paul not tell us that the Spiritual man is to be ruled by Scripture?

Hi rc,

Don’t think so. Does not the pope or council members or leaders exercise their spiritual man to judge , or carry out their spiritual tasks/offices ? We are to be convinced of a truth equally, as brothers and sisters notwithstanding offices, giftings etc.

Is not the spiritual man to have rule over himself, his flesh even? How else can one submit, even to the Lord, much less any man/office/power ? I think Paul does say Writ is normative even as his oral words/instructions were also.

Do you not think that you are running a little wild with this? You are cherry picking matters that you, personally, happen to agree with. What you somehow ignore, is that you do not have the same mind and judgment as Martin in all his 95 thesis, or with the Orthodox articles of faith concerning Baptism, Confirmation or Eucharist.

Kindly disagree. Not cherry picking or ignoring. Of course the inference is that one can be wrong as well as right, and hence not one with His mind (when wrong).

“When one is right” concerning matters of faith and morals, yes, they are led by the Spirit and obedient to the Church, for the sake of the Lord.

Agree somewhat, but prefer to see it more personal, less mechanical/structural. When we are one with and led by the Spirit, we are not only one with God but one with the brethren, and one with the church on the matter. .

Blessings

 

[po18guy]

Hi rc,

Agreed, but now what does the CC position “lack in” for so many to argue otherwise ?

Blessings

She is attacked because she stands for the fullness of revealed truth, which the world hates. Check the YouTube videos - every self-proclaimed pastor on earth seems to have an opinion as to how the Catholic Church is pagan, demon-filled, heretical (isn’t that just rich!), you name it. I have been condemned to hell for defending my faith on YouTube - by “Christians”! Those who possess partial truth are impelled to attack truth which they do not yet recognize. This is not necessarily an evil, just a failing of human nature, a product of our concupiscence.

Do you ever see Methodists railing against the Baptists? Presbyterians condemning fundamentalists? Lutherans demonstrating against Quakers? No. Unity in diversity.

But all, somewhwere in their “statement of beliefs” (i.e. creed) implicitly or explicitly disagree with or outright condemn the Catholic Church.

Catholics are quite often accused of arrogance or of “triumphalism” when in fact, it is neither. What it is, is confidence. Do we lack humility? Sadly, quite often, the answer is yes.

 

[dawid]

Hi benhur

Well, I believe in biblical inerrancy but not CC interpretation of Peter’s “primacy”

That would put you at odds with Scripture, the first-hand understanding of the apostles and first disciples and the early Church fathers.

(How do you know that the Orthodox Churches were right in that matter or that Luther was correct? They have no delegated authority according to Scripture.) Straw man argument. To delegate oneself authority to then legitimize yourself is circular. I mean really how do you know except that the CC says so about herself

The straw man argument would be applicable were the Doctrine of infallibility promulgated by the early Church.
(Definition: A circular argument fails as a proof because it will only be judged to be sound by those who already accept its conclusion.)

However evidence since Pentecost indicates that role of Peter and his successors. Based on that evidence the Vatican Council decided to formalise what was already in existence since the time of the apostles.
The straw man argument is therefore not applicable!

(… If you believe that the pope is not infallible in matters of faith, then his “opinions” are still at least as good as yours) Agreed. I did state as such. The individual, the pope , a council etc., each with the potential to be one with the mind of Christ.

The pope in his office as successor to Peter has an unique charism and differs from the others that you mention - ie his gift of infallibility as abiter in deciding matters of faith.

( …40,000 faith communities that claim to follow them) Yes, the catch all stumbling block for Catholics. Indeed it takes a miracle to see beyond that unfortunate reality.

Jesus established one Church (ekklesia = community or Church). The break away of the protestant reformers was contrary to this intent. It has its consequences - bad and good (God is able to turn all things to His Will).
A book dealing with the consequences: amazon.com/Unintended-Reformation-Religious-Revolution-Secularized/dp/0674045637

However the protestants have done some considerable good in many things. Unfortunately many have made it their work to attack the Church that Christ established.
See this book: amazon.com/Bearing-False-Witness-Debunking-Anti-Catholic/dp/1599474999/ref=pd_zg_rss_ts_b_12350_4

Amen. As salvation was of the Jews, so salvation is today in Christ, as borne by the Christian/Community.

Salvation is indeed through the anointed of the Jews. eg Abram/Abraham, Jacob/Israel, Moses, David and his descendant Jesus. In the same way Jesus gave Simon bar Jona/Kephas/Peter authority.

Regards
d

 

[benhur]

She is attacked

Hi po,

Sorry, I read the above and went wo. I am pretty sure that attitude was not in my post ,nor from others . I mean I was only responding to the perception/objection of 40 thousand denoms, making PC implausable for Catholics. I understand, and do not consider that an “attack”.

The question still stands, what makes Catholicism implausable for almost half of Christendom ? I think you put forth the perception of “triumphalism”, and perhaps that is a stumbling block for some P’s. Thank you.

Not sure that all/any of the 40 thousand churches condemn CC in their statement of beliefs. I have not seen any, but it is totally possible.

As far as you being anathemized, sorry. There is a time and place for everything, and am not sure of your circumstances in receiving them .

So we have unity in diversity ? Thank you. I am pretty sure baptists and others have heated debates on many points though. I have often said P’s are united in that they are not Catholic, as far as not believing in your head bishop /Pope. From there we begin to differ amongst oiurselves.

Thanks for your reply.

Blessings

 

[mackbrislawn]

Hi M,

It is the context of "hearing/reading/ seeing something.So we hear about a church with 73 books and one with 66 books and their respective rationales. Divine assistance is needed on the matter (just as it was in the writing and receiving and understanding of first recipients) I also used Peter’s "illumination’. The Father illumined, pieced together, all that Peter had ever heard/seen concerning the Christ. That includes his parents and rabbis and Writ, and High priest and Sanhedrin , and Pharisees, Jesus etc etc.

Of course, “faith cometh by hearing and that by the word of God. And no one comes to the Son unless drawn by the Father, and by the foolishness of preaching God chose man to be saved”.

Agreed illumination, faith , is not equally distributed beyond salvation . On one hand we are taught of His good will , that He gifts as He pleases, and on the other hand , we are told to seek like no one else, to dig deep and deeper and He will reward.

Blessings

I asked much the same question as in my post #670 to you, to a Mormon who claimed to get divine revelation in her mind, and she answered in a similar way as you did. She got her certainty by divine illumination from the Spirit, as I take it you seem to indicate you do, yet you both get such dissimilar inspiration from the same Spirit! (Or is it the same spirit?) Anyway, that is what I mean my illumination is not equally distributed. (I don’t know what you mean by “beyond salvation.”)

But, you seem to define illumination as “faith.” Is that right? That’s not how I think of it.

 

[dawid]

Hi benhur

Sorry, I read the above and went wo. I am pretty sure that attitude was not in my post ,nor from others . I mean I was only responding to the perception/objection of 40 thousand denoms, making PC implausable for Catholics. I understand, and do not consider that an “attack”.

I do not perceive any adverse attitude in your posts.

benhur:
The question still stands, what makes Catholicism implausable for almost half of Christendom ? I think you put forth the perception of “triumphalism”, and perhaps that is a stumbling block for some P’s. Thank you.

I agree with you in that there should be some humility. Simply because one is a member of the Church that Jesus established does not justify pride. Ask the apostles!
Pride is a common weakness in all humans.
Not sure that all/any of the 40 thousand churches condemn CC in their statement of beliefs. I have not seen any, but it is totally possible.

So we have unity in diversity ? Thank you. I am pretty sure baptists and others have heated debates on many points though. I have often said P’s are united in that they are not Catholic, as far as not believing in your head bishop /Pope. From there we begin to differ amongst oiurselves.

A simple Google search reveal a whole cottage industry of anti-Catholic vitriol.

Tighten your seat-belt - with the world growing more secular, faith communities, such as Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular, will be attacked for holding on to their beliefs.

As unpleasant as it may appear, it has already served to bind Christianity closer in several issues.

benhur:
So we have unity in diversity ? Thank you. I am pretty sure baptists and others have heated debates on many points though. I have often said P’s are united in that they are not Catholic, as far as not believing in your head bishop /Pope. From there we begin to differ amongst oiurselves.

Historically one can see the need for an infallible authority.
As the person to whom God made His revelations, Moses had to be an infallible authority to record the Message and establish an initial canon of Scripture.
Moses was succeeded by others as shown in sacred Scripture.

That requirement still exists in the order of the New Covenant.
That role (as stated in Scripture) is dealt with in the office of Peter.

Regards
d

 

[Peter_J]

Hi rc,

The spiritual man judges all things and not just a pope or a council or a magisterium. When one is right it is only because of divine revelation of His mind, as in Peter’s declaration of whom Jesus was, or when Rome and Anthasius fought for the Trinity or when the O’s resisted Rome supremacy, or as Luther before his inquisitors. All are each other’s check and balance and in that regard we are all popes.In that regard Canon can be formalized but not because we would be lost or ignorant otherwise.

Blessings

But rcwitness’s post didn’t say “the mind of the Pope”. It said “the mind of Christ”.