Death, Lies, & Videotape

[vz71]

vz -

First - yes - thanks Walt for keeping an eye again - but I agree with Marfran - please allow us to ‘work this out’ together… there may be bumps in the road in trying to figure out how we communicate about this… but please give us the chance to work at doing it charitably!

Agreed, and seconded. I hate it when a thread simply pops out of existence for the posters inability to remain civil.

VZ - you and I have communicated on this issue on this thread and others - so I am sure you know that for some of us the question of being vegetarian is certainly not a trivial one, but one that resonates with faith… as always I can only speak for myself. Because my Catholic faith is central to my life, and as I’ve learned about the issues of factory farming in the US - having to pull myself out of that loop has been important. And because it resonates with my faith - it has been important to me to share that with other Catholics, and CAF has provided a great opportunity to find both those who agree with this and others with whom we can be in dialogue.

Apologies if my terminology is belittling to some. That is not the intent.
I believe I explained in the previous post what trivial means in my usage of it.
Vegetarian lifestyle or not is not going to be a citeria God uses to judge us.
And since it is not, our passion on the topic should not get so high.

I would feel better about the whole thing if I just once witnessed threads on issues of salvation getting this heated.

It often makes one question where exactly the priorities are.

 

[4elise]

I would feel better about the whole thing if I just once witnessed threads on issues of salvation getting this heated.

It often makes one question where exactly the priorities are.

… well you won’t get an argument on where peoples priorities are from me

I’ve started a couple threads on the mission ad gentes of the Church - our commission from the Holy Spirit - and had NO posts - started a thread for prayers for the Holy Father on his trip to the middle east - no posts - so it seems that here at CAF people prefer discussions on topics related to how we are living our lives today - here - and food choice is certainly a big one, one that I love to discuss because - as I’ve stated - it is an issue of resonating with my faith -

So… I’ll take my discussions about our commission else where and stay engaged here on issues that I do think matter too.

I think sometimes we all chose words that we hope will get a reaction - and stand back - but if we all read our posts again before hitting ‘submit reply’ - and consider how someone might hear it - AND - speak from the position ‘my’ view it can be hard to go wrong. Sometimes I just take a break before composing a reply

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

There is nothing sinful about eating meat. God gave us dominion over the earth and its creatures.

If even one-quarter the indignation used to attack meat-eaters and defend vegetarianism was moved instead to the very real sin of killing human babies, the pro-life movement would make immediate and tremendous strides.

 

[Marfran]

If even one-quarter the indignation used to attack meat-eaters and defend vegetarianism was moved instead to the very real sin of killing human babies, the pro-life movement would make immediate and tremendous strides.

If the pro-life movement joined forces with the pro-ALL of Life movement, we would make tremendous strides for unborn human babies. I am pro-life, I am pro-ALL of Life. When people disregard animals and do not care about cruelty to them, it is also just as easy to care little for unborn human fetuses whose voices also can not be heard. The pro-ALL of life people care about ALL of God’s creation, including and especially human life. And how we treat the rest of the planet and God’s other creation has a direct impact on us, the humans.

 

[4elise]

There is nothing sinful about eating meat. God gave us dominion over the earth and its creatures.

If even one-quarter the indignation used to attack meat-eaters and defend vegetarianism was moved instead to the very real sin of killing human babies, the pro-life movement would make immediate and tremendous strides.

Sailor… You often post on this issue however so you too give the issue some of your time… I don’t think anyone posting here is anything but pro life - we have this in common -it is areas of food choice where we find weve drawn different conclussions

I also haven’t seen anyone suggesting eating meat a sin - just people sharing why they don’t and inviting others to consider it as a possibility - you aren’t interested in considering this so please know I don’t judge you and ask that you return the respect.

 

[vz71]

If the pro-life movement joined forces with the pro-ALL of Life movement, we would make tremendous strides for unborn human babies. I am pro-life, I am pro-ALL of Life.

No your not.

Unless you can lay claim that everything you consume has expired on its own.
Oh the horror of the death you propogate throught the plant world.

I would appreciate a little bit of logic here.
Do not use the term ALL unless you can actually lay claim to ALL.

Unless you are (like a singer that died recently) trying to survive off of pills and water, you are consuming other living things.

 

[Marfran]

No your not.

Unless you can lay claim that everything you consume has expired on its own.
Oh the horror of the death you propogate throught the plant world.

I would appreciate a little bit of logic here.
Do not use the term ALL unless you can actually lay claim to ALL.

Unless you are (like a singer that died recently) trying to survive off of pills and water, you are consuming other living things.

vz: Who consumes unborn human babies??? These arguments are not about consumption per se, they are about the cruelties and suffering that we impose on sentient beings. The pro-life movement is not concerned about the *consumption *of human babies, it is concerned about the purposeful termination of human life. People who are pro-All Life, in addition to respecting human life, also respect God’s other creation and do not want to impose unneccessay cruelties and suffering on animals, or live in a way that destroys or degrades the environment and other planetary resources, and respects the connection of ALL life. We are also concerned with how our dietary practices, in the more affluent countries, impact and affect our less fortunate HUMAN counterparts in other areas of the world.

 

[vz71]

I also haven’t seen anyone suggesting eating meat a sin -

But we are close.

When people invoke the idea of good stewardship as a reason for that particular diet plan, it is on the bleeding edge of calling the consumption of meat a sin.

I could readily see it interpreted that way.

I’m not. But they are close enough to raise my eyebrows and make me push for a difinitive answer concerning the sin that appears hidden within the statements.

 

[vz71]

vz: Who consumes unborn human babies???

 

[Joseph_Kaluwa]

Hie guys. I have followed the arguments put forward by various members. I’ve seen that everyone is defending the side that suits him/her best.

I just wanted to find out if there is any food that is produced from non living things. Noone can say fruits because that too would be like killing children of the parent tree.

All i want to say is that we all live in a world of dependence. It’s just a matter of who depends on who. For any food that you think of, someone/something has to die. Its just unfortunate we (humans) have to rely on other animals and plants. The fortunate part is i believe thats how God planned it to be. If it were not so, he would have made us able to live without eating. God made man ruler over all living and non living things. So lets not argue about this. It’s the way it was meant to be.

Those arguing that plants have life are equally right. Plant or animal are for man to use. If we go arguing about morality of use then we will end up saying we should not use animals for whatever purpose.

In simple terms it’s what is called the food chain. Has anyone seen how a lion kills its prey? is there any morality in it? It’s the food chain. We should stop eating meat because other reasons such as medical other than because of the way the animal died.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

My dog reacts this way to going to the vet too — she just hates it, even though it is for her good. I guess this is why this video may be difficult for me to watch because I can see the same kind of reaction in an animal utilized for food in the US (even if the plant is somewhere else) and my own pet - it helps me see the correlation - I saw a shirt once that had pictures of little kitties, puppies and a little calf and piglet and the quote was “Why eat one and love the other?”

Why indeed? Dogs are a food item in the Orient.
And why do we keep seeing animal rights propaganda videos on CAF??

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Actually a news item a few years back claimed they do in China. Unborn children who’d been aborted were used as an ingredient in a health tonic or remedy.
And of course we have embryonic stem cell usage & fetal cell lines used in vaccines.Not so different.

 

[vz71]

Actually a news item a few years back claimed they do in China. Unborn children who’d been aborted were used as an ingredient in a health tonic or remedy.
And of course we have embryonic stem cell usage & fetal cell lines used in vaccines.Not so different.

Although I just lost my apetite, I’ll wager that is the case for any moral person no matter their diet.

I we sure this isn’t urban legend?
I know China has absolutely no concern for human life, but this goes way over the top.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Although I just lost my apetite, I’ll wager that is the case for any moral person no matter their diet.

I we sure this isn’t urban legend?
I know China has absolutely no concern for human life, but this goes way over the top.

No, I’m not completely sure it’s true, but I think it was from a reputable source like Human Life International. Will check up on it if I can find a moment.
Embryonic stem cells are just a self-deceitful form of cannibalism.

 

[4elise]

But we are close.

When people invoke the idea of good stewardship as a reason for that particular diet plan, it is on the bleeding edge of calling the consumption of meat a sin.

I could readily see it interpreted that way.

I’m not. But they are close enough to raise my eyebrows and make me push for a difinitive answer concerning the sin that appears hidden within the statements.

I hear what you are saying - and I think it is about intent.

As one who has chosen to be vegan because what I learned ‘clicked with my faith’ I also know that it doesn’t ‘click’ for others - some of these others happen to be my own adult kids who I do not think are committing a sin by eating a hamburger.

Here in the forums however I do like to ‘explain’ the reasons that make sense to me to other Catholics in terms that we can both relate to - does that make sense?

 

[4elise]

Why indeed? Dogs are a food item in the Orient.
And why do we keep seeing animal rights propaganda videos on CAF??

Excuse me?

I think you are making my point - did you watch the video in the original post?

People in the US would be outraged to think of their pets as dinner - but don’t have the same concern for the animals we eat.

As for calling this discussion “propaganda videos” it just doesn’t encourage a respectful discourse. The video may not move you to make any change in your life, and I respect that - but for some of us it is a visual reinforcement for the choice we’ve made to omit meat from our diets.

So if one sees this as propaganda, I guess I would just suggest avoiding it -??

 

[4elise]

Actually a news item a few years back claimed they do in China. Unborn children who’d been aborted were used as an ingredient in a health tonic or remedy.
And of course we have embryonic stem cell usage & fetal cell lines used in vaccines.Not so different.

 

[4elise]

Hie guys. I have followed the arguments put forward by various members. I’ve seen that everyone is defending the side that suits him/her best.

I just wanted to find out if there is any food that is produced from non living things. Noone can say fruits because that too would be like killing children of the parent tree.

All i want to say is that we all live in a world of dependence. It’s just a matter of who depends on who. For any food that you think of, someone/something has to die. Its just unfortunate we (humans) have to rely on other animals and plants. The fortunate part is i believe thats how God planned it to be. If it were not so, he would have made us able to live without eating. God made man ruler over all living and non living things. So lets not argue about this. It’s the way it was meant to be.

Several years ago - I’d have made this same argument Joseph - however as learned about factory farming - the way animals are treated in CAFO, the damage to the environment, the health factors for people who work in this industry, and those who are neighbors — I don’t think ‘this is the way it was meant to be’ - so - I’ve removed animals, dairy and eggs from my diet, I don’t use leather, or silk or wool - I KNOW it is impossible to remove 100% of animal products from one’s life - I just try to do my best BECAUSE of the way animals are raised TODAY.

Those arguing that plants have life are equally right. Plant or animal are for man to use. If we go arguing about morality of use then we will end up saying we should not use animals for whatever purpose.

In simple terms it’s what is called the food chain. Has anyone seen how a lion kills its prey? is there any morality in it? It’s the food chain. We should stop eating meat because other reasons such as medical other than because of the way the animal died.

In the ‘wild’ I don’t think you will find anyone here arguing that it isn’t part of a natural world - There have been discussions on how we make the distinction between animal and plant life and the video actually really illustrated that - my tomatoes don’t try to get away from anything, they don’t have a central nervous system or a brain.

I understand what you are sharing - but as you note that animals are for us to ‘use’ but I’m completely sure you wouldn’t argue that we have the right to abuse them. You may be comfortable including them in your diet and I don’t judge you for that - as I’ve stated (I know some of you are getting sick of reading this) I have adult children who do that I love and don’t judge… - it is just for some of us we have made a connection that TODAY - the way meat is produced - we need to omit it from our diet, and since it resonates with faith we want to have this discussion with other Catholics.

 

[Drawmack]

People in the US would be outraged to think of their pets as dinner - but don’t have the same concern for the animals we eat.

Do not speak for me. If I was starving my beloved kitty would be Kim Chi in a minute.

 

[adriancombe]

The camera doesn’t lie. bit.ly/7Ii3H Please watch the entire video so we can discuss.

I haven’t seen the video yet, as I am on my Centro, but for a similar angle, that incorporates the animal and human suffering, google “Blood, Sweat and Fear.” Read as much of the report as your stomach will permit. Suffice it to say: the machine does not stop just because a worker lost a finger; not all the protein you are consuming is from ‘animal’ sources.