Deaths as Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship

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Do you think that the statement I objected to - that Hamas is able to eliminate all the Jews in Israel, and can do it with one blow is so rational? That is so over the top that it’s not worthy of “discussion.” IMO.

And, as for bias - do you think that most posters on this thread aren’t wholly biased in Israel’s favor?

As for my characterization - how is your use of “nonsense” different from my use of “paranoia”?

🤷
If you want to be like ‘most’ that’s your choice. Scream away.

If you can’t see the difference between ‘nonsense’ and what you really used (not your condensed version above) “right wing paranoia” then this is a useless conversation.
 
If you want to be like ‘most’ that’s your choice. Scream away.
Scream away? I try to write what I say calmly. No, I am not like “most.” I am no uncritical supporter of Israel.
If you can’t see the difference between ‘nonsense’ and what you really used (not your condensed version above) “right wing paranoia” then this is a useless conversation.
Then don’t engage.
 
So, we should just ignore International Law? Israel had absolutely no right to do what they did. Every Nation has an inherent right to protect its waters. That limit ends at 12 Nautical miles from land. Joe Biden’s statement was based on the assumption that they had arms on board, but all they could find where slingshots, kitchen knives, and marbles.
Biden made no mention of arms. He just said they have a right to do it. I am no expert in International Law (to the extent there is any that anybody truly observes) but my impression, and I have seen reference to it on various sites, is that if a nation declares a blockade against threats formally, it has a recognized right to enforce that blockade. If, indeed, Israel has done that, then Biden was entirely correct, because one cannot enforce a blockade without inspection.

Now, it is also a fact that various nations have different “territorial waters” claims, and they’re not all the same.

But regardless, every people has a right of self-defense. There is no question at all that arms get into Gaza and are used against Israelis. Basically, an argument against the blockade is an argument for Hamas to import weapons with which to kill Israelis indiscriminately; something Hamas at least attempts all the time, including yesterday.

If people who oppose Israel simply want to say they don’t want Israel to be able to defend itself against attacks on its civilians by Hamas, I wouldn’t agree with that position, but at least it would be an honest position. But all of this pettifogging around about territorial waters and such when it comes to blockade running, is really just a way of saying one does not want Israel to be able to defend its population. Let’s just say it the way it is.
 
So, we should just ignore International Law? Israel had absolutely no right to do what they did. Every Nation has an inherent right to protect its waters. That limit ends at 12 Nautical miles from land. Joe Biden’s statement was based on the assumption that they had arms on board, but all they could find where slingshots, kitchen knives, and marbles.
I want to make clear that I am not accusing you of personal dishonesty. I just reviewed my last post and I see that it isn’t clear.

Anyway, I’m not.

Nevertheless, I do think these objections to Israel’s enforcing its blockade are the product of rationalization; if not on the part of the person who expresses them, then at least as to the person’s background informational sources. As such, it ends up being objectively incorrect, whatever a person might think about it subjectively.

If Israel cannot enforce a blockade against those products that aid Hamas in killing Israeli civilians, then preventing that enforcement is tantamount to simply declaring that Israel will not be permitted to defend its citizens.
 
According to an article in The Times (of London), Israel’s blockade is questionable, not because it stopped a ship on the high seas, but because the blockade is not allowing sufficient aid to the civilian population of Gaza.

In times of peace, ships on the high seas can only be stopped for suspicion of international crimes, such as slavery or piracy. But in times of armed conflict, a blockade may be declared, and the ships trying to run the blockade may be stopped and boarded in international waters.

The blockading nation may divert the other country’s ship, so long as any humanitarian aid is distributed. And Israel is apparently doing this.

But…
The authority to intercept vessels and control aid deliveries, however, is available only in a lawful blockade. To be lawful, a blockade must not be implemented where the damage to the civilian population is excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade, and this is where Israel’s legal position is open to question.
The BBC has reported UN agencies as saying that insufficient aid is reaching Gaza, possibly less than one quarter of daily needs. This raises serious questions about the underlying legality of the blockade.
business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article7142055.ece
 
According to an article in The Times (of London), Israel’s blockade is questionable, not because it stopped a ship on the high seas, but because the blockade is not allowing sufficient aid to the civilian population of Gaza.

In times of peace, ships on the high seas can only be stopped for suspicion of international crimes, such as slavery or piracy. But in times of armed conflict, a blockade may be declared, and the ships trying to run the blockade may be stopped and boarded in international waters.

The blockading nation may divert the other country’s ship, so long as any humanitarian aid is distributed. And Israel is apparently doing this.

But…

business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article7142055.ece
I have never seen anything reliably informing me that any shortage of necessities in Gaza is due to the blockade vs lack of generosity on the part of the donors. About a year ago, there was a big debate about this when some Gazans broke through the Egyptian blockade. Films on the internet at least confirmed in part that a lot of what was brought in through that gap were not necessities, but luxury goods. And those were films made by Palestinian sympathizers. Some of the films were withdrawn when it was pointed out (correctly) that the (mostly) young men going to and fro carrying goods were remarkably well dressed.

I’m not especially trusting of some of these claims. I recall complaints about Israel “cutting off electricity” to Gaza a year or so ago. Well, it didn’t, but Hamas did hit one of Israel’s power stations with rockets, which did cut it off partially for awhile. Hamas propaganda made the most of it, of course, and got all sorts of people excited about “Israeli cruelty”.

My understanding is that Gaza basically has no economy of its own, so I think it is dependent on donations. Given that the only likely job resources in the near future would be in Israel or Egypt, more likely the former, Hamas has its people in a state of near perpetual dependency due to Hamas’ insistence on maintaining a permanent state of war with Israel. Maybe that’s smart politically, but it isn’t all that helpful to the welfare of the people there. It’s like some sociopath saying to a social worker “If you don’t give me more money, I’ll beat up my child.”
 
I can’t imagine that Iran, the only country that could possibly do that, would ever do that. Hamas is a loose cannon. Iran is not. The retaliation for supplying WMD or nuclear weapons would be wholly destructive of Iran.

I do believe that the very notion that the Palestinians would ever be given such means of destruction verges on, if it is not actual paranoia.

Palestine is not WWII Germany.

Yes, their odd pre-millenial eschatology.

Which is not focused on Israel, but on every country in the world.

The Israelis are more than capable of preventing their own destruction by rag-tag religious fanatics.

Save that both would want to succeed in converting the world.
Yes, Israel is probably more than capable of handling Hamas, the problem is that in order to do that, most likely it will have to use methods that are going to make it look bad and will further destabilize the region.

Unfortunately with Iran developing the nuclear bomb, it is going to shake up the power in
the region. Granted one could probably make assumptions that MAD will hold, but with upset populations, and a rise of nationalism all bets may be off. Also huge problems could occur even if not nuclear bombs are dropped.

As the cold war gets further and further away with the US and USSR being able to keep a lot of the regional wars in check, we may be looking at situations that mirror pre-World War tensions. Economies right now are in flux. People in emerging powers may want expect more power than others are willing to give. If regional wars start to crop up it can cause ripples in the economy that will further destabilize other regions, setting of chain reactions. For the most part, the US and USSR could keep a lot of this in check before, but that may not be the case right now.

As for Israel it certainly does have power to hold its own, but its weakness will be constantly attacked: its small size, small population, and low world wide public opinion. The danger lies in that it has a lot of power, and when backed into a corner it will try to survive.

If you ask me, the key now, is to cut down on the righteous rhetoric. It might be righteous on the outside, but I fear it may be corrupt inside even if the intentions are good. Everyone on all sides can give their justification, but at the same time over-extend on it and end up doing things that provoke the other side. I can see both the Palestinians and Israelis trying to resist and survive, but then there are people externally getting involved only making the situaiton worse. Time needs to allow things to cool down, but unfortuantly with current ideologies I don’t think that is likely.
 

As for Israel it certainly does have power to hold its own, but its weakness will be constantly attacked: its small size, small population, and low world wide public opinion. The danger lies in that it has a lot of power, and when backed into a corner it will try to survive. …

On its own of course Iran’s little proxy Hamas is well described as "rag-tag’. As long as the world’s left is on board though in blackballing Israel, there is nothing rag-tag about the existential threat to Israel.
A UN with a leftist American voice no longer supporting Israel will leave Israel completely isolated and vulnerable to sanctons and whatever ‘legal’ actons the UN deems fit to pass.The sanctions once passed by the university elites will just be extended to really bite.

There is nothing rag-tag about that.

There is nothing ‘liberal’ about the left. It enables the totalitarians.
 
On its own of course Iran’s little proxy Hamas is well described as "rag-tag’. As long as the world’s left is on board though in blackballing Israel, there is nothing rag-tag about the existential threat to Israel.
A UN with a leftist American voice no longer supporting Israel will leave Israel completely isolated and vulnerable to sanctons and whatever ‘legal’ actons the UN deems fit to pass.The sanctions once passed by the university elites will just be extended to really bite.

There is nothing rag-tag about that.

There is nothing ‘liberal’ about the left. It enables the totalitarians.
Sadly even in Britain we have a Prime Minister, from the centre-right who has condemned Israel 😦
 
This could go in either the Politics thread or this one, either way.

Food for thought from Middle East expert Juan Cole…

Hey, Tea Party. A foreign navy boarded an unarmed ship flying the flag of a NATO member in international waters and shot dead an American citizen with four bullets to the head and one in the chest on Memorial Day. It did this while the head of the belligerent state was on his way to a state visit to Washington, DC, to be awarded a further $200 million in aid on top of the $3 billion of American taxpayer money the US gives away to him every year.

If you are not upset by this, your tea is weak, man. Weak.
 
Sadly even in Britain we have a Prime Minister, from the centre-right who has condemned Israel 😦
I do think he did well to condemn Israel, but aside from that, that PM Cameron is a conservative says a lot regarding the matter.
 
Hey, Tea Party. A foreign navy boarded an unarmed ship flying the flag of a NATO member in international waters and shot dead an American citizen with four bullets to the head and one in the chest on Memorial Day. It did this while the head of the belligerent state was on his way to a state visit to Washington, DC, to be awarded a further $200 million in aid on top of the $3 billion of American taxpayer money the US gives away to him every year.

If you are not upset by this, your tea is weak, man. Weak.
Oh, I’m not any more upset by this than by anything else. It’s no more than I’d expect those people to do to others, be the others Palestinians or Americans.
 
Must read:

lucianne.com/thread/?artnum=544183

Ayers, Dorhn helped organize ‘peace’ flotilla

American Thinker, by Rick Moran

Original Article

americanthinker.com/blog/2010/06/ayers_dorhn_helped_organize_pe.html

Posted: 6/3/2010 12:45:32 PM

It’s not like these people don’t have enough blood on their hands already: Former Weather Underground leaders William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, as well as Code Pink founder Jodie Evans, helped organize the Free Gaza Movement, which launched the six-ship flotilla from Turkey to Israel that ended in a violent clash with Israeli Defense Forces, BigGovernment.com reported.

Comments:
 
Sadly even in Britain we have a Prime Minister, from the centre-right who has condemned Israel 😦
I’m not a Tory, but I really think what Hague and Cameron was a credit to Britain, and certainly represents a positive departure from the language the Labour Government were willing to use with regards to Israel. Whether this is a brief departure from the usual line in the face of overwhelming public opinion, or a real change, remains to be seen, but it certainly cheered me up.
 
Do you really think that Hamas would ever be able to destroy every last Jew in Israel? And that they’d be able to do it by being right one time? Rightwing American paranoia!

Yes, it is; and I’d like to see Catholicism installed everywhere in the world. Fat chance for either Hamas or for the Church.
Well, the Islamics got a nice start on 9/11.
 
guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/03/sarah-colborne-gaza-account

Just noticed that The Guardian has published a small account of the attack from one of the British volunteers onboard. It’d be interesting to hear the opinions of both supporters and opponents of the flotilla on it.
As appalling as the article shows the Israeli action to be, that won’t deter the true believers from excusing any excess against those on the ships.

Turkey and South Africa and Equador and Nicaragua are recalling their ambassadors. I’d hope that a sizable number of countries do likewise.
 
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