Deaths as Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship

[Dale_M]

Hey, Tea Party. A foreign navy boarded an unarmed ship flying the flag of a NATO member in international waters and [shot dead an American citizen with four bullets to the head and one[in the chest

I have a lot of respect for Juan Cole, but I think is comment shows a misunderstanding of the Tea Party movement. I think many, perhaps most, who identify with the tea party care very little about foreign affairs, unless it directly affects the safety of the US. This would be in keeping with the attitudes of most Americans, and the tea party is a populist movement.
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[Ridgerunner]

As appalling as the article shows the Israeli action to be, that won’t deter the true believers from excusing any excess against those on the ships.

Turkey and South Africa and Equador and Nicaragua are recalling their ambassadors. I’d hope that a sizable number of countries do likewise.

You do? Why?

No, let’s put it this way. In what concrete ways do you believe that will bring a peaceful resolution to the conflict between Israelis and Hamas?

 

[Dale_M]

Just noticed that The Guardian has published a small account of the attack from one of the British volunteers onboard. It’d be interesting to hear the opinions of both supporters and opponents of the flotilla on it.

Unfortunately, her account doesn’t give us any idea which side began the violence.

 

[Ridgerunner]

This could go in either the Politics thread or this one, either way.

Food for thought from Middle East expert Juan Cole…

Hey, Tea Party. A foreign navy boarded an unarmed ship flying the flag of a NATO member in international waters and shot dead an American citizen with four bullets to the head and one in the chest on Memorial Day. It did this while the head of the belligerent state was on his way to a state visit to Washington, DC, to be awarded a further $200 million in aid on top of the $3 billion of American taxpayer money the US gives away to him every year.

If you are not upset by this, your tea is weak, man. Weak.

I’m not a Tea Partier, but I think the challenge is what is weak here. First and foremost, it is my impression of Tea Partiers that they are not terribly likely to support enemies of the U.S.

Some of the weaknesses are:
-One assumes the NATO member in question is Turkey. It was not a Turkish naval or merchant ship. On the assumption the ship was flying the Turkish flag, it was just a concatenation of people from different countries on their own mission flying a flag of a nation.
-The blockade was legal and sanctioned by Turkey. There is no reason to believe it sanctioned the blockade running, and good reason to believe it did not.
-NATO members, of course, are obliged to notify one another of potential conflicts. Turkey could not, because it wasn’t in on the confrontation plan. It was just saddled with it after the fact. Because it has a burgeoning Islamic influence internally, it was obliged to react against its own larger interests.
-The American was not involved in an American enterprise, but in one that is contrary to the interests of his own country. (Tea Partiers, one assumes, cannot reasonably be expected to be sympathetic with Americans who aid and comfort the enemy.)
-The confrontationists physically attacked the Israelis first. Presumably, the American was, or appeared to be, among their number.
-The confrontationists knew they were running a blockade, intended to force Israel to stop them and intended to attack Israeli forces when they did. Some had announced in advance that they intended to become “martyrs” in the confrontation they intended to cause. If they intended their “martyrdom” they obviously intended to employ means sufficient to invite deadly force in return. One can reasonably assume Tea Partiers do not generally favor self-appointed “jihadi martyrs”.
-Israel is a U.S. ally. Hamas is the self-declared enemy of the U.S. The aid to Israel is necessary to Israel’s defense.
-But for Israel, there is a fairly strong possibility the Soviet Union would have attacked Europe in the 1980s; possibly igniting a nuclear war. (another story altogether)
-Enemies of the U.S. are not generally honored on Memorial Day.

Not long ago, the ship of a U.S. ally was torpedoed and sunk without notice or provocation by a belligerent enemy of the U.S. The belligerent has nuclear weapons. The U.S. did nothing about it. What does Juan Cole, I wonder, want the Tea Partiers to think about that?

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

You do? Why?

No, let’s put it this way. In what concrete ways do you believe that will bring a peaceful resolution to the conflict between Israelis and Hamas?

To even begin to respond to you would be pointless. Your post above that began, “I’m not a Teapartier, but…” was so one-sided towards Israel, excusing everything they did.

Of the American, you said that he was aiding and comforting the enemy. I was unaware that the United States was at war with Palestine.

You presumed that the American was among the attackers. There is no reason to make that presumption.

You said that but for Israel, the Soviet Union would have attacked Europe in the 1980s. I know that Israel has a good army, but I doubt that they could have defeated the Soviet Union.

Everything you wrote is nothing but an apologia for Israel’s actions.

Well, believe it if you will, but don’t expect me to engage in expressing what I think might bring about peace between the two parties. You have no interest in hearing it, given your inflexible position on the righteousness of Israel’s attacking those boats.

 

[Ridgerunner]

To even begin to respond to you would be pointless. Your post above that began, “I’m not a Teapartier, but…” was so one-sided towards Israel, excusing everything they did. ** Did I? It’s possible, of course, that their tactics were flawed and that other tactics would have worked out better, but not being a military tactician, I wouldn’t presume to say.**

Of the American, you said that he was aiding and comforting the enemy. I was unaware that the United States was at war with Palestine.** With Palestine? When did I ever say that? Answer: I didn’t. Part of Palestine (Jordan) is more or less allied with the U.S.; certainly when it comes to sharing intelligence and some logistics. Hamas is at war with the U.S., at least conceptually, and with the Catholic Church as well. Read their charter and you’ll see that. **

You presumed that the American was among the attackers. There is no reason to make that presumption. ** Nor did I. What I said was that Mr. Cole doesn’t know he wasn’t one of the attackers and therefore could not hold his death up as some kind of Israeli excess. **

You said that but for Israel, the Soviet Union would have attacked Europe in the 1980s. I know that Israel has a good army, but I doubt that they could have defeated the Soviet Union.** No. It had to do with Israel sharing some of the things it learned about the Soviet tanks and BMPs of the time; some very serious vulnerabilities. There was a plan, though I don’t know who all in the Soviet heirarchy adopted it or didn’t, to initiate a massive tank and BMP attack through the Fulda Gap. That’s well known, and it’s well known that some in the Soviet military heirarchy, at least, favored it. I do know that this potential was taught as a very worrisome possibility in the War College at that time. It has to be remembered that the Soviet Union was in very serious economic trouble at the time; something we really didn’t know. When it then became known to the Soviets what we then knew about the armored weapons, thanks to the Israelis, the Soviets, at least according to some, gave up the notion. **

Everything you wrote is nothing but an apologia for Israel’s actions. ** So, complain to Joe Biden, who justified it too. He’s someone whose opinion you might respect more.**

Well, believe it if you will, but don’t expect me to engage in expressing what I think might bring about peace between the two parties. You have no interest in hearing it, given your inflexible position on the righteousness of Israel’s attacking those boats.

I am a firm believer in the right of Israelis to defend themselves against the likes of Hamas. Have you read the Hamas charter? Do you think it’s just hyperbole, or do you think they really mean it? If they mean it at all, Hamas is bent on killing Israelis without distinction. Personally, I think they mean it because they demonstrate it. They shot some rocket bombs at Israeli civilians just yesterday and two days ago, and many times in the past. Iranian vessels bound for Gaza have been intercepted carrying much more serious weapons. Israelis have no choice but to believe Hamas really intends what its charter says it intends, and their government would be seriously derelict in failing to prevent shipment of weapons to Gaza.

But no, Rich, I really am asking how you concretely and specifically think unrestricted shipping into Gaza will help bring about peace between Hamas and Israel.

So, okay, I’ll go first. I am aware that there are those in the West Bank; people who can at least have some influence on events, who are willing to work out a “modus vivendi” with Israel. It wouldn’t be an easy thing to do, particularly since “Palestinian” affiliation is fundamentally tribal, not national, and some tribes don’t get along with others. There are also mercenary groups in the region whose only interest is the next payment from the state or organization that hires them.

But, it’s not totally impossible. I think it would require a purge of Fatah, a return and reinvestment of the money it has overseas in the area. Probably it would require Israeli technical aid. There is already a lot of commerce between Israel and the West Bank. It’s just not all that safe to acknowledge it over there. There is a lot of financial cooperation going on between them. It would also require a beefing up of loyal Fatah forces. Only then can it work out its own “modus vivendi” with Hamas. Some Palestinian Arabs of consequence are quite willing to work out a land arrangement with Israel that is probably acceptable to Israel. But along with that will have to go acceptance of Israel as a state (The PA already does, tacitly. Hamas doesn’t) very serious Israeli public and private investment in “Palestinian” areas, resolute opposition on the part of Fatah and Hamas to the mercenary and outright criminal armed groups. (a VERY tough proposition). Also, since neither the West Bank, and even less Gaza, have “stand-alone” economies, Israel would have to allow a “guest worker” program in Israel itself; something it once did.

Jordanian cooperation is crucial, since most “Palestinians” are actually Jordanians, and there really needs to be something like a “free trade (and labor) zone” encompassing Jordan as well as the West Bank, Gaza and Israel.

(continued)

 

[Ridgerunner]

(continued)

Your guy, President Clinton, came very close to pulling it off, you know. He really did. The right parties had all the right ingredients, but one wrong one. That was Yasser Arafat, who stole the funding and put it in Swiss banks. That was the beginning of the end for Fatah in Gaza and you know why? Because a centerpiece of the whole plan was to build massive resorts along the Gaza coast, including hotels, shows, casinos, all the stuff the oil-rich Arabs want to go enjoy away from home and used to get in Beirut. PLO gunmen were to provide security for the rich Arabs who could “sin” in escorted safety and spend lavishly, as they are inclined to do. Israel was going to provide water, power and technical know-how.

Fatah recovered some of the stolen money from Arafat’s widow. Most of it is now invested in the U.S., and do you know why? Because the PA is just as insecure now as anybody else in the Middle East. That money needs to come home. It’s controlled by some of the very same Palestinians who are trying to work out peace arrangements among Fatah and Hamas and Israel and Jordan. But it isn’t going to happen in the absence of Hamas’ concluding a genuine peace with the PA and Israel. And of course, Iran, whom no person of good sense in the Sunni part of the Middle East trusts, needs to be evicted from the area. (Assad, of course, is not Sunni, and almost certainly depends on Iran indefinitely to retain power.)

Now, tell me how allowing unrestricted shipments to Hamas will lead, in concrete ways, to peace.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

When it then became known to the Soviets what we then knew about the armored weapons, thanks to the Israelis, the Soviets, at least according to some, gave up the notion.

Oh, yeah. Not as I heard it. Soviet plans to invade through the Fulda Gap were foiled because Zbigniew Brzezinski told them it would be all over for them if they tried. He had intelligence collected by Ryszard Kuklinski, a highly respected colonel in the Polish Army who, by 1981 told the CIA about Moscow’s preparations for war. He provided 40,265 pages of highly classified Soviet documentary intelligence. The CIA called him “the best placed source available to the American government in the Soviet bloc.”

The Jews gave the U.S. some info about tanks. Good. Kuklinski gave more information than anyone had.

Read, “A Secret Life” by Benjamin Weiser.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Oh, yeah. Not as I heard it. Soviet plans to invade through the Fulda Gap were foiled because Zbigniew Brzezinski told them it would be all over for them if they tried. He had intelligence collected by Ryszard Kuklinski, a highly respected colonel in the Polish Army who, by 1981 told the CIA about Moscow’s preparations for war. He provided 40,265 pages of highly classified Soviet documentary intelligence. The CIA called him “the best placed source available to the American government in the Soviet bloc.”

The Jews gave the U.S. some info about tanks. Good. Kuklinski gave more information than anyone had.

Read, “A Secret Life” by Benjamin Weiser.

I don’t purport to know all the intelligence stuff. Doubtless it was multifaceted, and doubtless a lot of it won’t be fully disclosed for a long time. I am also aware the Soviets couldn’t quite figure out how to keep potentially hostile Poles from disrupting their supply lines, and they really didn’t trust putting them all in the front. I don’t think they ever really solved that problem.

I won’t be back until tomorrow. But (and I’m serious in saying this) take a minute and google “Munib al-Masri”. If there is going to be peace in the Middle East, in my opinion it’s guys like him, King Abdullah and some of the smarter Israelis and whoever in Hamas isn’t in love with killing and taking Iranian money, to make it work. It’s not going to be the confrontationalists or the propaganda-makers or the shooters.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I
I won’t be back until tomorrow. But (and I’m serious in saying this) take a minute and google “Munib al-Masri”. If there is going to be peace in the Middle East, in my opinion it’s guys like him, King Abdullah and some of the smarter Israelis and whoever in Hamas isn’t in love with killing and taking Iranian money, to make it work. It’s not going to be the confrontationalists or the propaganda-makers or the shooters.

Will do.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Oh, yeah.

Do lawyers say “oh yeah”? Guess so.

Being friendly now, before I go, I want to recommend this for reading. This guy is not the only guy over there like this. I don’t know a lot of them, but I know a few. I dare to name this guy instead of the ones I know, ONLY because I have never had personal contact with him. No telling who reads things in here, and it’s not always in peoples’ best interests over there to name them, or tell who has dinner with whom. By the way, his tribe is very large and very influential over there. There are Israelis you wouldn’t believe if I told you, who are in communication a lot with guys like this, as well as with the important people in Jordan and in Egypt as well. Keep in mind, this is a Palestinian source. I believe in people like this guy, not in the shooters or the provocateurs, and certainly not with the rocket-launchers or Iranian money takers.

palestinenote.com/cs/blogs/topnews/archive/2010/05/11/nablus-philanthropist-to-broker-peace-with-hamas.aspx

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Do lawyers say “oh yeah”? Guess so.

Not in court, but even when you take the boy out of Brooklyn, you don’t always take Brooklyn out of the boy.

Being friendly now, before I go, I want to recommend this for reading. Keep in mind, this is a Palestinian source. I believe in people like this guy, not in the shooters or the provocateurs, and certainly not with the rocket-launchers or Iranian money takers.

palestinenote.com/cs/blogs/topnews/archive/2010/05/11/nablus-philanthropist-to-broker-peace-with-hamas.aspx

I have no reason to doubt you about this. I’ll read what you recommended.

 

[Darryl1958]

Sadly even in Britain we have a Prime Minister, from the centre-right who has condemned Israel

From what I recall, Britain buried their only right wing leader of the past half century, Margaret Thatcher, without even waiting for her to stop breathing. I am not sure that anything resembling a centre-right has even existed since then in Britain?

Maybe for Western Europe in general, it has become all about oil? How else to explain Scotland’s release of the Libyan terrorist, as if the hundreds of his Lockerbie victims didn’t even matter.

Turkey is going the way of Iran now, as the photo-op of the two along with the Brazilian leader graphically points out. The way I am inclined to interpret this defiance of the Gaza blockade is that Turkey is beginning to show its muscle against a West that they see as weak and decrepit. Fully understanding that Europe and Britain is not going to be a player, and that the Obama regime has likewise sidelined a strong American voice somewhere way out in left field, their time has come.

Ironically, if the blockade of Gaza is breached, the outcome is almost certainly going to be Israeli action against Gazans in response to the inevitable rocket attacks. This will mean more dead Gazans. For sure this is what the Hamas terrorist masters want. They fight the wars on the martyrdom of their young. A leftist western press will lap it all up, same as they always have.

But is this really so hard for the leftist peacenik types to see? Or do they really desire for such an outcome too, in perfect lockstep with the political Islamists on the issue?

And if so, why? Do they really hate Israel and the West so much that they see this as a way to break the will of the vanguard of western civilization in the ME, Israel?

Or is is just more of the same anti-semitism, the same as it ever was, with the Jew being portrayed as the same avaricious, colonialist, capitalist exploited, just as it was in the times of the last holocaust?

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Or is is just more of the same anti-semitism, the same as it ever was, with the Jew being portrayed as the same avaricious, colonialist, capitalist exploited, just as it was in the times of the last holocaust?

Howsoever negatively the Israelis are being portrayed as a result of this incident, it is NOT as hooked nose, unshaven Eastern European Ashkenazy moneylenders!

 

[Darryl1958]

Howsoever negatively the Israelis are being portrayed as a result of this incident, it is NOT as hooked nose, unshaven Eastern European Ashkenazy moneylenders!

They are portrayed by the left here as people that attack American ships and murder American soldiers in cold blood, and wantonly bomb kindergartens.
The Protocols of Zion, on popular Arabic television, of course portrays the traditional stereotypical Jew as the type that use the blood of Christian boys to make their passover rolls, and Palestinian children’s shows are the carriers of the hook-nosed portrayal, with the Islamist twist of the Jews being children of pigs and apes who will be destroyed in the apocalypse.

The Left itself has ‘grown up’ in the antisemitism of course. It is all about rapacious, exploitative colonialist now, the apartheid regime that is illegitimate and, even if it hypothetically has a right to exist, certainly has no right to defend itself.

It is a different channel, different rhetoric, but the genocidal intent is the same as it has always been. I am not even sure why this is frankly?

Not surprising that a Left that allies itself with politicians who work for the genocide of the unborn though, would also play the same enabling role for regimes that work for the destruction of the Jewish state of Israel.

The deniability remains the same, and the shoah

 

[Poco]

I can’t imagine that Iran, the only country that could possibly do that, would ever do that.

Try imagining PM Neville Chamberlain in 1938.

There seems to be a pattern here from Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:

“Although the main solution is for the elimination of the Zionist regime, at this stage an immediate cease-fire must be implemented,” he said. from 2006

“I must announce that the Zionist regime (Israel), with a 60-year record of genocide, plunder, invasion and betrayal is about to die and will soon be erased from the geographical scene,” he said. from 2008, I believe

Mr Ahmadinejad has called for an end to the Israeli state and has described the Holocaust as a myth. from 2009

But just to be fair, this was in this same article: “Mr Ahmadinejad has since stated that his speech was exaggerated and misinterpreted.”

I am sure it was.

I’m not a Tea Partier, but I think the challenge is what is weak here. First and foremost, it is my impression of Tea Partiers that they are not terribly likely to support enemies of the U.S.

Some of the weaknesses are:
-One assumes the NATO member in question is Turkey. It was not a Turkish naval or merchant ship…

Well said! Also, your posts also #'s 347 & 348!
(I just didn’t want to waste a lot of space repeating what you have already posted. Although, I’m sure there are many who think I’m still wasting space! )

I do have sympathy for the refugees and innocents caught up in this mess and being used as pawns by the likes of Hamas, Hezbollah et. al. However, IMHO, if Israel’s “allies” keep letting Israel get backed further and further into a corner, the situation could get even worse very fast!

On the bright side, though… If Rich and Ridge can get along… :grouphug:

 

[gnjsdad]

I’m not a Tea Partier, but I think the challenge is what is weak here. First and foremost, it is my impression of Tea Partiers that they are not terribly likely to support enemies of the U.S.

Nobody on that ship, or, for that matter, nobody for whom those supplies were intended, is an enemy of the US. So, that’s not a relevant point.

Judging by the deafening silence from the Tea Party on this wanton killing of an American civilian, my impression is that it is an Israel first outfit, despite its “patriotic” “we got to take our country back” rhetoric.

 

[Dale_M]

Judging by the deafening silence from the Tea Party on this wanton killing of an American civilian, my impression is that it is an Israel first outfit, despite its “patriotic” “we got to take our country back” rhetoric.

I think an equally convincing view is that Tea Partiers don’t particularly care about the Israel/Gaza conflict.

Arguably, the death of that one American came because he was somewhere he shouldn’t have been. Anytime someone chooses to run a military blockade, they are risking violence. Lots of Americans put their lives on the line for personal interests, but that doesn’t make their deaths an issue of patriotism.

 

[Poco]

Another idea.

Kick everybody out of the region and give the land back to the Canaanites and the Phoenicians.

 

[gnjsdad]

I think an equally convincing view is that Tea Partiers don’t particularly care about the Israel/Gaza conflict.

Arguably, the death of that one American came because he was somewhere he shouldn’t have been. Anytime someone chooses to run a military blockade, they are risking violence. Lots of Americans put their lives on the line for personal interests, but that doesn’t make their deaths an issue of patriotism.

I can accept that explanaion. But would that hold if you substituted Iran for Israel?

And I know this is off topic, but there’s the issue of the $3 billion a year we give to Israel. The Tea Party, so concerned about out of control spending and debt when it comes to America’s health care system, seems OK with giving so much to a country that has its own universal health care system