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trdchubi
Guest
Thanks for the link. Now I see peaceful protesting can be equated to acts of throwing people overboard and charging at people with long poles. They were peaceful indeed.
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trdchubi
Guest
Maybe you lost a love one on USS Liberty. I would understand your hostility. How about the game the CIA played to the families of the Munich massacres. Maybe we should reexamine why the CIA kept Ali Hassan Salameh from the Mousad and IDF.Ah, yes. The poor defenseless IDF caught in a crossfire.
What about what Israel does? Was that attack on our ship a mere trifle? Was the espionage that they carry out against us just part of a game?
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
Something well over 200 years ago? Were we at war with the Hessians or were we their allies? Big difference.You’re talking about stuff that happened 40 years ago in the case of the Liberty. Should I still be holding a grudge against the Hessians for their part in the Battle of Brooklyn, or should the Japanese still hate us for Hiroshima and Nagasaki? When does something like that stop being relevant?
Hiroshima wasn’t an attack against us and it was 65 years ago. Many Japanese still hate us for it, BTW.
I was on active duty with the Air Force in an Intelligence Unit when we started to get the classified reports in on the Israeli attacks on our ship killing our men. Not so long ago to me, and it was US who were attacked.
Pollard was an American, a spy for Israel, caught and convicted of his crime. What Americans are doing life in an Israeli jail for espionage?As for espionage, if you don’t think we have intelligence assets operating in Israel without their knowledge and approval…
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Baer
Guest
I am outraged when Hamas carries out a suicide bombing attack however that does not excuse Israels actions. The second part of your statement is extremely incorrect though, Israel has killed far more Palestinians that Hamas has killed Israelis or Palestinians.Wooooooo Hooooooooooo guys let’s not take any action terrorists lobbing rockets at kindergartens.
Even if the IDF did intentionally kill 15 defenseless people (which would be callous), it doesn’t explain the global disproportionate anger. There is nowhere near this amount of outrage when Hamas or Hezbollah authorise or carry out a suicide bomb that kills more Palestinians than Israel ever has. Oh well.
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Dale_M
Guest
If there were arms on board, and its possible, we should learn of that since the ships were taken into Israeli custody.I wonder how much weaponry was included with all that “aid”?
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Monte_RCMS
Guest
Well, you need to understand the context.Hiroshima and Nagasaki were military targets.
There was absolutely nothing going on those two days in Japan. Or anywhere else for that matter.
Just people having picnics and little kids playing with frisbees. And without any kind of provocation, two atomic bombs went off.
The Chinese were there at the picnics and the Koreans. Just peace and love and kumbyah.
And those nasty old Americans had to spoil the day.
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Monte_RCMS
Guest
No mention of the presence of the Soviet fleet that day with the Liberty right in the middle of it all. With the U.S. fleet hundreds of miles to the west. No mention of the Speznav troops landing in Israel. Read: “Foxbats over Dimona”.Maybe you lost a love one on USS Liberty. I would understand your hostility. How about the game the CIA played to the families of the Munich massacres. Maybe we should reexamine why the CIA kept Ali Hassan Salameh from the Mousad and IDF.
amazon.com/Foxbats-Over-Dimona-Soviets-Nuclear/dp/0300136277/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1275331905&sr=8-1
The authors were on BookTV, but I found this instead:
fora.tv/2007/06/06/Soviets_Nuclear_Gamble_in_the_Six-Day_War
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
This is not a thread about the bombing of Hiroshima.Well, you need to understand the context.
There was absolutely nothing going on those two days in Japan. Or anywhere else for that matter.
You put it cutely, but that was my point. At Hiroshima, it was the Americans, not the Japanese who dropped the bomb.And those nasty old Americans had to spoil the day.
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NotCrazyDan
Guest
I didn’t ask if the Japanese hated us for H + N but rather should they. We were at war with the Hessians because they came over here and killed people. I don’t care if we were ‘at war’ with them. Certainly we didn’t ask to be. Nevertheless, yes it was 200 years ago just like the Liberty was 40 years ago. Nagasaki was 65. I repeat my question, when does it stop being relevant?Something well over 200 years ago? Were we at war with the Hessians or were we their allies? Big difference.
Hiroshima wasn’t an attack against us and it was 65 years ago. Many Japanese still hate us for it, BTW.
I was on active duty with the Air Force in an Intelligence Unit when we started to get the classified reports in on the Israeli attacks on our ship killing our men. Not so long ago to me, and it was US who were attacked.
Pollard was an American, a spy for Israel, caught and convicted of his crime. What Americans are doing life in an Israeli jail for espionage?
As for espionage, is your gripe that they were doing it, or that this guy was an American who was caught and then thrown in jail for doing it. Do you not believe that we collect intelligence on our allies?
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Brendan
Guest
It isn’t really an act of piracy, any more than the Coast Guard intercepting a ship suspected of running drugs is. An if the ship’s course is that of heading towards the waters under US control, the C.G. can and does inspect such ships in international waters.I’d say that the people on that ship have the right to defend themselves from your act of piracy.
Heck, Kennedy was ready to send boarding parties to Soviet ships heading towards Cuba.
How is this different?
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
You’d best read about the attack on the Liberty. The Israelis had the nerve to say that they mistook it for an Egyptian ship, never mind that the Liberty looked nothing like that tub. Never mind that we raised a huge American flag to show who we were. Never mind that one of the lead Israeli pilots correctly identified our ship, announced that, and was promptly ordered to return to base. Never mind that the attack continued after that.No mention of the presence of the Soviet fleet that day with the Liberty right in the middle of it all. With the U.S. fleet hundreds of miles to the west. No mention of the Speznav troops landing in Israel. Read: “Foxbats over Dimona”.
amazon.com/Foxbats-Over-Dimona-Soviets-Nuclear/dp/0300136277/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1275331905&sr=8-1
Never mind Israeli treachery against an ally.
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Monte_RCMS
Guest
Rich, are you sure about that?At Hiroshima, it was the Americans, not the Japanese who dropped the bomb.
[New information all the time]
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
That’s up to the Japanese, not up to us.I didn’t ask if the Japanese hated us for H + N but rather should they.
Interesting that you don’t differentiate between allies and enemies.We were at war with the Hessians because they came over here and killed people. I don’t care if we were ‘at war’ with them.
There is no date certain. There are those still seriously angry with the Union about the Civil War. But, tell me, what would you like? A century, 75 years, a dozen years?Certainly we didn’t ask to be. Nevertheless, yes it was 200 years ago just like the Liberty was 40 years ago. Nagasaki was 65. I repeat my question, when does it stop being relevant?
I know we do. But, I don’t give a rat’s patootee about whom we spy against. I do about who spies against us. Or should we overlook Chinese and Russian espionage against us the same way? Gee, we spy against Russia so it’s just grand that they do it against us.As for espionage, is your gripe that they were doing it, or that this guy was an American who was caught and then thrown in jail for doing it. Do you not believe that we collect intelligence on our allies?
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tjm190
Guest
So your best attack against Israel is 40 year old conspiracy theory?You’d best read about the attack on the Liberty. The Israelis had the nerve to say that they mistook it for an Egyptian ship, never mind that the Liberty looked nothing like that tub. Never mind that we raised a huge American flag to show who we were. Never mind that one of the lead Israeli pilots correctly identified our ship, announced that, and was promptly ordered to return to base. Never mind that the attack continued after that.
Never mind Israeli treachery against an ally.
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Monte_RCMS
Guest
Given that there were a few other things going on at the time, which you have conveniently ignored, maybe the Israeli’s could be given some latitude for justifiable paranoia.You’d best read about the attack on the Liberty. The Israelis had the nerve to say that they mistook it for an Egyptian ship, never mind that the Liberty looked nothing like that tub. Never mind that we raised a huge American flag to show who we were. Never mind that one of the lead Israeli pilots correctly identified our ship, announced that, and was promptly ordered to return to base. Never mind that the attack continued after that.
Never mind Israeli treachery against an ally.
Whoopee do, the Liberty showed a flag. Wouldn’t be the first time somebody showed a “false flag”. [False Flag, get it?]
Perhaps, if there had been an Israeli liaison person on board, that might have helped a little. Someone else pointed out somewhere, maybe in a book review for Foxbats over Dimona" that there were no Israeli speakers aboard the Liberty.
It wouldn’t be the first time, our intel guys stepped in it, if you know what I mean.
But what do I know.
Anyway, this is not about the Liberty.
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
A conspiracy theory? The attack didn’t happen? It is one with unmarked black helicopters and aluminum hats?So your best attack against Israel is 40 year old conspiracy theory?
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EmperorNapoleon
Guest
The difference is that the U.S. Coast Guard has never dropped armed commandos onto a civilian humanitarian vessel 80 miles into international waters and gunned down the people onboard let alone with the premeditated intention of hijacking the vessel.How is this different?
As an aside, Israel’s latest lie is that their commandos were only armed with paintball guns. It would be hilarious if this event wasnt so tragic.
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tjm190
Guest
You are claiming that an attack that multiple investigations by both the US and Israeli government concluded was an accident was in fact intentional. If you believe the investigators were wrong unintentionally, you clearly have an opinion of our government that is far too low. If you believe it was a coverup intended to hide the fact that the attack was intentional, you are pushing a conspiracy theory.A conspiracy theory? The attack didn’t happen? It is one with unmarked black helicopters and aluminum hats?
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
Read the several books about the attack and why the ship was attacked. It was part of the Navel Security Group, on a communications interception mission. The attack was most deliberate. The Israelis didn’t like our listening in on their communications during their war with Egypt. They were also pi**ed because they knew we had broken most of their codes and could read their signals.Given that there were a few other things going on at the time, which you have conveniently ignored, maybe the Israeli’s could be given some latitude for justifiable paranoia.
There was NO mistaking our ship.Whoopee do, the Liberty showed a flag. Wouldn’t be the first time somebody showed a “false flag”. [False Flag, get it?]
We don’t allow foreign personnel in our intelligence collections facilities. I was in the Air Force Security Service for a few years - code word information above top secret etc. Foreigners aren’t allowed at our antenna sites either on land or sea. We were collecting both Israeli and Egyptian signals.Perhaps, if there had been an Israeli liaison person on board, that might have helped a little.
If our intercept operators were listening to the Egyptians and the Israelis, they understood Arabic and Hebrew. Intelligence collection sites don’t communicate with their targets.Someone else pointed out somewhere, maybe in a book review for Foxbats over Dimona" that there were no Israeli speakers aboard the Liberty.
They didn’t.It wouldn’t be the first time, our intel guys stepped in it, if you know what I mean.
Yes, this is about what went on yesterday, and my posts and those of others are here to show that we’re not dealing with blameless or innocent people on either side.
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
Your source for that?You are claiming that an attack that multiple investigations by both the US and Israeli government concluded was an accident was in fact intentional.
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