Deaths as Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship

[Rich_Olszewski]

I suppose I simply fail to understand your lack of outrage towards those who use women and children as human shields, use their own children as suicide bombers and intentionally target civilians, including women and children, yet are so quick to condem Israel for defending itself.

Maybe I’ve missed something, but that flotilla did not have women and children aboard who were about to be human shields, and the men and women in those boats weren’t about to use their own children as suicide bombers.

**Even the Israelis didn’t say that that was what the people on the ships had in mind. ** Why do Americans like you have such fantasies about the people aboard the ships?

The Israelis were the aggressors. I simply fail to understand that you don’t know that it was they who attacked the people in the flotilla and not the other way around.

Yes, this attack by the Israelis have made me dislike them. That has nothing to do with anti-semitism.

I don’t AK the Israelis, even though you wonder why I don’t. Sorry.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Citation please for that “well over 90% secular” figure.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Religious_affiliation

Jewish 75.5%
Muslim: 16.8%
Christian: 2.1%
Druze: 1.7%
Unclassified by Choice: 3.9%

From that 75.5%, that’s further divided:

So 43% of 75.5% is 32% plus the 3.9% is 35.9% of the total population. That’s nowhere near “90% secular” as you say.

Or am I missing something?

Add in the Christians and the Druze who aren’t of the Jewish religion. That’s another 4%, but it is still only around 40%.

You are right. I was wrong about my figures. Now, holler out “Gotcha!”

 

[Dale_M]

HRW: Rain of Fire.

Eh… Israel did not use white phosphorus as a weapon against civilian areas. It did use white phosphorus above civilian areas, to create a smokescreen. See the news photo at this source:
timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5447590.ece

As the photo in your post makes clear, some white phosphorus remnants did reach civilian areas. However, Israeli use of white phosphorus to create a smoke screen above civilian areas is currently allowed under international law. And this is why international law needs to be changed.

 

[Poco]

Maybe I’ve missed something, but that flotilla did not have women and children aboard who were about to be human shields, and the men and women in those boats weren’t about to use their own children as suicide bombers.

It was obviously not a reference to this incident. I apologize if I strayed a bit off-topic.

 

[Mike5575]

Oops! Even Joe Biden said today that Israel had a right to stop the blockade runners. Might separate the Democrats from the garden variety anti-semites on here now. We’ll see.

So, we should just ignore International Law? Israel had absolutely no right to do what they did. Every Nation has an inherent right to protect its waters. That limit ends at 12 Nautical miles from land. Joe Biden’s statement was based on the assumption that they had arms on board, but all they could find where slingshots, kitchen knives, and marbles.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Israelis have no illusions about the fate Hamas has in store for them. Their own people suffered it once, and they should not be blamed for wanting to prevent Hamas’ expressed desire to repeat the holocaust.

The Israelis only have make one mistake and they are history. The Israelis have to thwart EVERY Hamas effort. Hamas only has to get it right one time.

The ultimate goal is to install Sharia Law. Everywhere.

Read: The Grand Jihad by Andrew McCarthy

amazon.com/Grand-Jihad-Islam-Sabotage-America/dp/1594033773/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1275562895&sr=8-1

 

[Monte_RCMS]

They certainly did pose a threat to the Israeli commandos. If you are outnumberd by a crowd attacking you with bare fists, pipes and knives, it doesn’t matter if you are Rambo, your life is in danger.

Crowds on land in the region often use fusillades of thrown stones.

When reported by the media in a certain way (verbally), the media get people to laugh at the Israelis.

However, when the video is shown, the blizzard of stones is a frightening scene.

Stone throwing is joked at in the west, but is used as a means of execution in the region.

 

[Kadaveri]

Eh… Israel did not use white phosphorus as a weapon against civilian areas. It did use white phosphorus above civilian areas, to create a smokescreen. See the news photo at this source:
timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5447590.ece

As the photo in your post makes clear, some white phosphorus remnants did reach civilian areas. However, Israeli use of white phosphorus to create a smoke screen above civilian areas is currently allowed under international law. And this is why international law needs to be changed.

This is false. The Protocols on the use of Incendiary Weapons make it is illegal to use them in areas where civilians are concentrated (which is defined as cities, villages, refugee camps etc) even if they were targets of attack due to their indiscriminate nature. White phosphorus particles reach a temperature of 1,500 degrees when reacting with moisture and basically melt people’s flesh off; you can’t drop that stuff over places full of civilians like hospitals and claim you didn’t mean to kill and injure civilians as those are the obvious consequences of such an action. However that’s a moot point because in Gaza civilians were the target of attack. If you read the Human Rights Watch report you’d see that they explain how the Israeli claim that they were using white phosphorus as a smokescreen is impossible.

Firstly Israel had no need to use white phosphorus as it has smoke shells which could do the job just as well as white phosphorus without the incendiary effects. The reason why white phosphorus is used as a smokescreen instead of smoke shells is that the heat blocks things like heat-seeker missiles, technology which Palestinians obviously do not have.

Secondly as you can see from the photo you linked to, the Israelis were exploding the white phosphorus in the air. If you’re using white phosphorus as a smokescreen you explode it at or very near the ground, because (as you can see in the lead picture) if you explode it high in the air by the time it reaches the ground it dissipates and the smoke is too thin to block anyone’s view. However if you want to use it as an incendiary weapon you explode it in the air so it spreads over a wide area. The Israelis were using white phosphorus in a manner which would be practically useless if it were being used as a smokescreen yet highly efficient if it were being used to attack civilians.

Thirdly, in most of the cases where Israel dropped white phosphorus there were no ground troops in the area, so they could not have been using it a smokescreen to protect their soldiers.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

I’ll agree in part but disagree in part. True, the modern Zionist Movement did have in mind a Jewish state in Russia. But there also were always Jews in Israel, from time immemorial. They and Arabs lived under Turkish rule. Sometimes the Turks favored one group; sometimes another, but essentially oppressed all. In the 19th Century, western nations pushed the Turks to accept more Jews into what is now Israel, and the Turks did. The Arabs didn’t like it, but the Turks ruled, so that was that. After WWI, of course, the Brits took over and largely prevented Jewish emigration to Palestine, which then included Jordan. Nevertheless, Jews still emigrated there, willy-nilly. Of course, the numbers greatly increased after WWII, and the Jews warred on the Brits, who took the part of the Arabs, but ultimately gave the whole game up. The Brits created Jordan and gave it the West Bank, all under Hashemite (Bedouin) rule. Egypt got Gaza. Ultimately the Brits left and the Jews and Arabs had it out. The Jews won three rounds, and ended up with the West Bank and Gaza. (Sinai too, but they gave it back to Egypt)

Jordan almost certainly would not take back the West Bank now. Egypt definitely wouldn’t take Gaza back. So here we are.

True, Stalin had it in mind for a time to create a “Jewish” segment in the far northeast (a truly terrible place). Even gave it that name, (Jewish SSR or Jewish Oblast, I can’t remember which) but didn’t shove all the Jews into it. It seems later he decided to kill them all instead. But, as Solzhenitsyn put it “God told him (Stalin) to depart from his ribcage” before Stalin got it off the ground.

So, I am not entirely persuaded that WWII provided the incentive for creation of a Jewish state in Palestine. It does seem to have provided an occasion or window of opportunity.

Israelis, in general, believe that the region was given to them directly by God. It might be safer to buy someplace and relocate the Israelis; find some sparsely populated place. Belize? But they are not about to give up the Holy Land.

There are some aspects of the geopolitics that Israel argues are non-negotiable, such as the Golan Heights. The Gaza issue is complicated by its value as a perpetual irritant what with rocket barrages and tunnels and weapons smuggling.

IMHO, Israel’s biggest mistake was giving back the Sinai after they seized it. They should have kept it and the oil therein and the strategic distance and maneuvering space it offered. Israel is so small and so narrow, that it has no maneuvering room.

 

[Dale_M]

This is false. The Protocols on the use of Incendiary Weapons make it is illegal to use them in areas where civilians are concentrated

White Phosphorus, when used primarily to create smoke, is not considered an incendiary weapon, according to the United Nations Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons (CCW), Protocol III. This protocol of the CCW regulates the use of incendiary weapons.
CCW:

For the purpose of this Protocol:

1. “Incendiary weapon” rneans any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or a combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target.

quote=CCW Incendiary weapons do not include:
(i) Munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signalling systems
[/quote]

untreaty.un.org/English/millennium/law/disarmament/xxvi_2E.wpd

 

[MugenOne]

There’s another Jewish homeland created by Stalin in Russia called Russia’s Jewish Autonomous Oblast. Birobidzhan is the capital of the Jewish Autonomous Region. There are estimated 12,000 Jews who have remained against all odds to rebuild the Jewish cultural life of Birobidzhan. Hopefully, those people will benefit from trade with China.

Israelis, in general, believe that the region was given to them directly by God. It might be safer to buy someplace and relocate the Israelis; find some sparsely populated place. Belize? But they are not about to give up the Holy Land.

There are some aspects of the geopolitics that Israel argues are non-negotiable, such as the Golan Heights. The Gaza issue is complicated by its value as a perpetual irritant what with rocket barrages and tunnels and weapons smuggling.

IMHO, Israel’s biggest mistake was giving back the Sinai after they seized it. They should have kept it and the oil therein and the strategic distance and maneuvering space it offered. Israel is so small and so narrow, that it has no maneuvering room.

 

[Kadaveri]

White Phosphorus, when used primarily to create smoke, is not considered an incendiary weapon, according to the United Nations Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons (CCW), Protocol III. This protocol of the CCW regulates the use of incendiary weapons.

untreaty.un.org/English/millennium/law/disarmament/xxvi_2E.wpd

Look, I could argue about this aspect with you if I wanted but I won’t because it’s irrelevant. So to not distract from the fundamental point I’ll accept for the sake of argument that white phosphorus is legal to use in civilians areas for creating a smokescreen. That has no bearing on what Israel did in Gaza, which was not to use white phosphorus as a smokescreen but rather as a weapon directed at civilians.

 

[Dale_M]

There’s another Jewish homeland created by Stalin in Russia called Russia’s Jewish Autonomous Oblast. Birobidzhan is the capital of the Jewish Autonomous Region. There are estimated 12,000 Jews who have remained against all odds to rebuild the Jewish cultural life of Birobidzhan. Hopefully, those people will benefit from trade with China.

I hope so, too. But I think the Jewish population there is now quite small.

The most extensive changes occurred between the 1994 Russian microcensus
and the 2002 census. During this period, the Jewish Autonomous
Oblast’ (Birobidzhan) dropped from the list of the largest “core” Jewish populations
as a result of the extremely high emigration to Israel. The “core” Jewish
population there underwent a very pronounced decline, from 8,900 to 2,300.

According to the 2002 census, only about 1% of the total number of Russia’s
Jews lived there and the share of Jews in this Oblast’ fell to about 1.2% of the
total population.

jafi.org.il/education/100/concepts/demography/Tolts_Article1.pdf

Still, according to the Wikipedia article, there is interest there in preserving its Jewish culture. I wish them well!

 

[Dale_M]

That has no bearing on what Israel did in Gaza, which was not to use white phosphorus as a smokescreen but rather as a weapon directed at civilians.

I don’t think the intention of the Israelis was to create civilian casualties with their smoke shells. However, I do agree that such casualties occurred. And this is why the CCW needs to be amended.

 

[MugenOne]

I have seen some pictures of the burned victims of DIME/phosphorus shells. It is pretty sick.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

The Israelis only have make one mistake and they are history. The Israelis have to thwart EVERY Hamas effort. Hamas only has to get it right one time.

Do you really think that Hamas would ever be able to destroy every last Jew in Israel? And that they’d be able to do it by being right one time? Rightwing American paranoia!

The ultimate goal is to install Sharia Law. Everywhere.

Yes, it is; and I’d like to see Catholicism installed everywhere in the world. Fat chance for either Hamas or for the Church.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Rightwing American paranoia!

When you toss this nonsense around you automatically nullify any intelligent point you may have made. In addition, you paint yourself into a corner as someone who is biased and unwilling to discuss a topic rationally.

 

[Darryl1958]

Do you really think that Hamas would ever be able to destroy every last Jew in Israel? And that they’d be able to do it by being right one time

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

When you toss this nonsense around you automatically nullify any intelligent point you may have made. In addition, you paint yourself into a corner as someone who is biased and unwilling to discuss a topic rationally.

Do you think that the statement I objected to - that Hamas is able to eliminate all the Jews in Israel, and can do it with one blow is so rational? That is so over the top that it’s not worthy of “discussion.” IMO.

And, as for bias - do you think that most posters on this thread aren’t wholly biased in Israel’s favor?

As for my characterization - how is your use of “nonsense” different from my use of “paranoia”?

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

With nuclear and weapons of mass destruction supplied by countries such as Iran, there is certainly that possibility.

I can’t imagine that Iran, the only country that could possibly do that, would ever do that. Hamas is a loose cannon. Iran is not. The retaliation for supplying WMD or nuclear weapons would be wholly destructive of Iran.

I do believe that the very notion that the Palestinians would ever be given such means of destruction verges on, if it is not actual paranoia.

The last attempt on the destruction of every Jew in the world is attributed to the right, and was about successful to about 50 % of its target of complete annihilation.

Palestine is not WWII Germany.

Evangelists have their religious reasons.

Yes, their odd pre-millenial eschatology.

Catholics have their religious reasons for doing this too.

Which is not focused on Israel, but on every country in the world.

What is important is to be on the right side of history this time, rather than share in the everlasting shame of destroying the people who have given us our Bible and our Saviour.

The Israelis are more than capable of preventing their own destruction by rag-tag religious fanatics.

but the aims of Christianity of most believers today and the aims of political Islam simply do not compare.

Save that both would want to succeed in converting the world.