Debating with protestants who just won't listen

[NotMyOwn]

Well… if your hard line is heretical… and contrary to the Scriptural teaching, it’s not likely to do very much good. Trust me on that. God will bless labors, but they must be blessable. You were the one who asked about how to engage with Protestants who are being hostile. Maybe you’re getting deeply-engrained (and usually non-active) anti-Catholic sentiments out because the way in which you are approaching this situation is making them defensive. And they’re not being defensive of themselves or their sins—but of the objective work of God in their lives. What if someone started challenging the Sacraments? Think about how you’d behave. Well, the extraordinary graces are the ordinary graces to them… and the ordinary graces to you are extraordinary to them… and kind of hard to believe. Keep this in mind, and blow them away with the amazing Love of God that gives us such great promises and active workings of Grace and Healing —and fullness of life — as are found in the Church through Jesus Christ our Lord and His Spirit at work in the Church. Grace and Peace.

 

[steve-b]

I like More and Fisher, but they were living in a turbulent time. Since then, the Catholic Church has taken many steps to try to build bridges with our Protestant brethren. And, as you said, Feeney got in hot water with the Church due to his teachings, and he and his groups were in schism for a while (i think he reconciled with the Church before his death and at least one of his groups is back in communion with Rome now).

The Church used to take a much harder line on Protestants, … Things are a lot different today. While in some cases, perhaps the Church goes a little far, …

Just thinking outloud.

With all the “ecumenical speak” TODAY, Many Catholics don’t know why they are Catholic or why they should stay Catholic. And those who have left the Church and joined some Protestant sect, they say, why should I come back to the Church? Heaven forbid, a Catholic should use the age old approach on them that led to the building of the Church from apostolic times, giving them clear unvarnished truth, as in what “Paul Harvey” used to say “The Rest Of the Story”, including the consequences that follow actions if one divides and stays away. Not to mention all those non Catholics out there, who won’t come home, and instead choose to stay where they are.

Quoting from scripture,

The apostles taught, ergo the Church taught, from the beginning

Division, sedition, schism. dissension, heresy, are all condemned activities as are those who are in these sins.

That’s not from me or my opinion. It’s from scripture

Division / dissension διχοστασίαι , http://bibleapps.com/greek/1370.htm ,

That same word for dissension in Greek διχοστασίαι is used in both the following passages

Rm 16:17-21, Rom 16:17-20 RSVCE - Final Instructions - I appeal to you, - Bible Gateway
&
Gal 5:19-21 lists grave sins Gal 5:19-21 RSVCE - Now the works of the flesh are plain: - Bible Gateway

Why are they all grave (mortal) sins? Note the consequences? (Gal 5:21] “I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. “ IOW they go to hell when they die in that sin.

Could someone say today, Gee Paul that’s not “nice” of you to say that.

add to it

Schism σχίσματα , http://bibleapps.com/greek/4978.htm = schism (division) Note Re: the Ref: of Clement of Rome, Clement’s letter to Corinth, http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm written ~80 a.d., Note: in that link (Strong’s) shows a rent took place in Corinth which any kind of division is condemned. When it is from the pope it is schism

Heresy / divisive./ schism αἱρετικὸν , http://bibleapps.com/greek/141.htm ,
Titus 3:10-11, Tit3:10-11 RSVCE - As for a man who is factious, after - Bible Gateway IOW one who is disposed to form sects, heresies, schisms etc. The consequences? Paul says to Bp Titus, “After admonishing such a person once or twice, have nothing more to do with them, They are perverted, and in serious sin, That person is self condemned.”

Would Paul deliver that information differently today?

 

[NotMyOwn]

The Church teaches they aren’t guilty of it. But yes, the division is gravely immoral… but you will be more likely to make them restless with the beautiful Promises of Scripture… and texts like the ones I mentioned in my initial post on here…

I just want you to be successful in ministry. You want to kindle a restlessness in the world and in Christianity with them. You want to get them to come to see on their own that completely autonomous congregations and denominations… it’s not enough. It doesn’t reveal the Gospel to the world as much as it could be and should be. It isn’t in line with Scripture.

But the Catholic Church… She presents the single greatest hope for the unity of all Christians.

 

[steve-b]

The Church teaches they aren’t guilty of it. But yes, the division is gravely immoral… but you will be more likely to make them restless with the beautiful Promises of Scripture… and texts like the ones I mentioned in my initial post on here…

I just want you to be successful in ministry.

Don’t presume EVERYONE therefore is automatically innocent. That’s why we are to teach as well as evangelize.

 

[NotMyOwn]

Yeah. Thank you for calling that. Yeah, many are not innocent, thank you for calling that. (I was going to give cases… but it would take too much clarification…) We’re on the same page there though.

And even if they were ignorant… we still share the truth with them and evangelize (in fact, as an evangelical, I was taught to share and apply the Gospel with myself and others every single day… I don’t believe we can do anything less as
Catholics.) God calls us to work towards people coming into the Unity of God in the Holy Mysteries of the Church. This is Ecumenism.

A Visibly United Church is a Mighty Testimony to the world, and is what Jesus won for us, as is worth pursuing. It already exists in the Catholic Church, but those who are separated brethren due to a lack of realizing the truth… but who still follow Christ and the Church as they know it to the best of their ability… they are members of the Church though ignorant… and they’re far better members of that Church if they know that the Church is visible in the Catholic Church.

And they will be healthier, holier, and happier as such. In a battle for their joy, and for the purpose of the mission of God globally and personally and in our communities, for the Glory of God, our aim should be their unity in us, and us in God, that the world might see and know from us that God is One, and convert to everlasting life in Christ. This is the Gospel.

 

[steve-b]

The Church teaches they aren’t guilty of it. But yes, the division is gravely immoral… but you will be more likely to make them restless with the beautiful Promises of Scripture… and texts like the ones I mentioned in my initial post on here…

I just want you to be successful in ministry. You want to kindle a restlessness in the world and in Christianity with them. You want to get them to come to see on their own that completely autonomous congregations and denominations… it’s not enough. It doesn’t reveal the Gospel to the world as much as it could be and should be. It isn’t in line with Scripture.

But the Catholic Church… She presents the single greatest hope for the unity of all Christians.

Just a further thought

From Vat II, In Lumen Gentium, tucked in the document, amidst the language of “ecumenical speak” , is this paragraph.

(all emphasis mine)

1. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a “bodily” manner and not “in his heart.”(12*) All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13*)

Re: Division
It is an offense against charity. Both against Jesus prayer of perfect unity, not some squishy notion of unity, Jn 17:20-23 RSVCE - “I do not pray for these only, but - Bible Gateway and in extension against neighbor as well. That’s why Paul came down so hard on those who divide and remain divided. from the following post Debating with protestants who just won't listen - #86 by steve-b

And the Church continues that teaching… even surrounded by today’s “ecumenical speak”

 

[NotMyOwn]

“knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ”
This does not overturn Catholic Teaching, you are right. I just know my brothers and sisters who aren’t there yet, aren’t “fully-incorporated” and they’re broken. They persevere in charity (in as much as they can without the full experience of God’s Love in the Spousal Love of Christ though His Precious Boy and Blood, and through the other Sacraments (Reconciliation being that which comes first if they’ve been Baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit [and not by a non-Trinitarian group]), in heart and in deed as far as they know to, but they aren’t whole without the Church, and it hurts my heart. I love them. And I want them to come home. Please, with the love of God be like God,

“"Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak tenderly to her. And there I will give her her vineyards and make the Valley of Achor a door of hope…” (‭‭Hosea‬ ‭2:14-15‬ ‭ESV‬‬)

Read to the end of that chapter, and detect what’s going on there… It’s amazing. And that’s what we do as evangelists.

And so we don’t give in to or accept a squishy fake unity… As it is written in Jeremiah, “They have treated superficially the brokenness of my dear people, saying ‘Peace, peace, when there is no peace.’” We are called to be makers of a true and abiding, real and actual Peace. Jesus prayed, “Sanctify them in Truth. Your Word is Truth.” (John 17:17)

 

[yankeesouth]

It’s either pride or ignorance that keeps a protestant from coming to know Jesus Christ and His Church. Hopefully it’s not the former but don’t give up. A good way to approach this is instead of dueling bible verses, ask them questions. Questions that lead to the question of Authority.

You are doing what all Catholics should be doing. Many are afraid to engage so they try and disuade others from doing so. Don’t get discouraged.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Example: A timeless bit of advice. No expiration date on this advice.

This Old Testament passage is regarding a prophet’s call to be a sentinel (specifically Ezekiel’s); where is it interpreted as a general judgement for all?

Re: Ez 3:17…

Consider this http://www.ncregister.com/blog/msgr-pope/how-to-respond-when-people-say-who-am-i-to-judge

How else can we be considered our brother’s keeper?

 

[NotMyOwn]

Here’s my last post on here unless someone tags me or says something that I feel obligates me for whatever reason to give a response… As a former Protestant who came into the Unity of the Church, and who maintains a good relationship with Protestant friends and who is seeing an openness to the Catholic Faith among the most serious of evangelicals through the words and stories given to me, read what I have said on here again. I honestly want this forum to help you to grow, not just to reaffirm you in your frustration or make you more cynical around and with Protestants. Cyncisim will only always be returned with cynicism. And the reason why people aren’t Catholic is, whether they reject the truth or are ignorant of it and aren’t on course to find it is because they’re cynical or have accepted a cynical state of affairs as something that we will always be in at least on this earth—for those who are uninformed.
(When I say uninformed… I mean more than you can’t tell them and then walk away, because without time they literally won’t understand you… just like if one of us got up and told the Gospel in the middle of some place with no one who spoke any of the languages that any of us spoke…given that God didn’t work some miracle… it would do no good. To work through different theological languages to get to the core of the experience and understanding of a person so as to be able to impact it deeper than surface-level takes time and patience, and human connection over a large span of time.)

Growth = Grace + Truth + Time

Check out Matt Maher and Audrey Assad. Evangelical protestants generally love Matt Maher, and those that know about her love Audrey Assad—both Catholics and powerful witnesses to the separated brothers and sisters in this the time of the Great New Evangelization.

(One last thing real quick… The Baptist “Trail of Blood”… firstly, that’s not held authoritatively by Baptists… secondly, the author of that book went on later to write another book on why his ideas in the previous book were wrong and apologized—good thing to know if somebody uses that… at least some of the people and groups referenced in that book were serious heretics even according to Baptist standards. So that idea loses a lot of its weight. I come from a very-solid Southern Baptist background.)

 

[tgGodsway]

but WHY are they so close-minded and harbor such irrational and frankly ridiculous hatred for the true Church?

AnnetteJoan… I was looking for a good subject to get into and I found your post. To me, you sound so empathic. Is it all based on your own personal experience with certain protestants? perhaps.

It is at best a broad sweeping statement. I myself know many protestants who would give the shirt off their back for you if necessary. I also know catholics who would do the same. I’m sure there are protestants and catholic out there who have not learned how to love with the love of Christ. But I am not surprised.

I am Catholic in terms of my Church network, but protestant in terms of my theology. We do not insist you must believe like us lest you end up going to hell, but you do.

We do not desire to strong-arm Catholics into, quote, “coming home.” Perhaps you know protestants who do these things, but it has never been my experience.

On the other hand, there are some on this web site who come close to saying I am of the devil himself. Why is that?

 

[MichaelP3]

Maybe I didn’t read everything but the “Protestant” can also think “this person is just not listening”?

 

[NotMyOwn]

Off topic. I’ll take this down if someone says it’s not the place. But you said you’re Protestant in Theology. (I’m figuring you’re Baptist-ish. That could be totally wrong, and you could be Episcopalian.)

How do you deal with the Catholic worshiping of the Eucharist? The way I see it, it’s either lies or lunacy (in either case it’s idolatry, and those who practice idolatry will not inherit the Kingdom), or it’s truly our Lord. (I’m sure you know the C.S. Lewis, “Liar, Lunatic, Lord” quote.) I’ve heard of Muslims having visions of Christ and being sent to Orthodox Christians and being brought to God that way… God doesn’t save people into idolatry…

If you think about it fairly and objectively from a biblical standpoint, Eucharistic Adoration honestly can’t be anything but true or idolatry. And all Catholics and Orthodox do it, at least during Mass/Liturgy.

But if God saves them into it… and Augustine believed it and so practiced it as well… same with Christians since at least the 2nd Century… Justin Martyr talks about it… as does Ignatius… and nowhere do any early apologists explain the Eucharist as but a symbol… God promised not to fail the Church… and that true Faith in Christ would continue to be the measure of determining measure of orthodoxy and Faith (including true and sincere repentance, metanoia) enough to justify. If 1400 years of Christians are automatically damned… it sounds like God failed the Church… and a lot of these people learned how to do Church and were ordained by the Apostles themselves and knew those who had been.

 

[tgGodsway]

thank you for your comments NotMyOwn, … but I would disagree with you on your premise. A Catholic who practices the Eucharist, with all of it’s implications, will be judged at the judgment seat of Christ, based on their own understanding of it in contrast with what scripture actually teaches about it. But that is assuming that this Catholic is saved. I assume they are until I hear something that tells me they are not. The same rule applies for any protestant in my view.
It isn’t about how correct your doctrine is, it is more about “believing Jesus is the Christ” This belief has it’s eternal rewards.

 

[NotMyOwn]

What about Hindus? And those living in unrepentant sexual immorality? If they’re just doing the best they know… Some Hindus worship Christ in their pantheon, as did Gnostics, whom the early Church condemned… but some Hindus today can theoretically believe in the Trinity—and of course they can call Jesus Christ no problem—and still worship their other gods and idols. Muslims also recognize Jesus as the Messiah (and Christ). (Hey what kind of Protestant are you real quick…)

 

[tgGodsway]

What is Hindus faith?

 

[NotMyOwn]

(^Answered in my edited comment above)

You see, my understanding of the Gospel has always been that a Saving Faith in Christ requires repentance which includes the leaving at a very minimum of idolatry, which is completely opposed to Abrahamic Religion.

 

[tgGodsway]

Allow me to quote from the Apostle Paul… in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor and some to dishonor 2 Tim. 2:20.

The Lord knows those who belong to Him in such cases where it is difficult to discern.

 

[tgGodsway]

what is saving faith? I cannot find this term in scripture. I know of faith! and I know of doubt! These two terms I get.

 

[NotMyOwn]

We can talk about this later over messages, if you’d be open to it. I think it’d be cool to. Not many Protestants I know are competent of Catholicism. I’ve got to go for right now tho. Grce&Pce! (Grace and Peace!)

(Sorry for getting us off-topic, guys… Please don’t get us in trouble. Hey, you know, maybe this models respectful conversation between Catholics and Protestants—so maybe it is relevant and isn’t a departure from the thread after all? )