Debunking Zerinus Blog, Do Catholics pray to Mary?

[Wampa]

It’s not a straw man argument if my characterization is not an exaggeration. Obviously you have your opinion of how you come off and I have mine. Neither is “right” in the sense that neither is a “fact”. I’ll point out that at least one person agrees with me (post #24). You can’t say the same. *.

Also, I never said one shouldn’t “debunk the false”. In fact, I made the clear point that there’s nothing uncharitable about that. It’s the “how” I’m debating. As I said to you in PM, some people can see the distinction between the content of argument and tactics of argument. Apparently you can’t.

I’m not quibbling with the content of your argument (“debunk the false”). I’m quibbling with the tactics. And my argument is: when you’ve already got the winning argument on the merits, going over the top into kindergarten-worthy tactics brings no extra gain, only potential detriment (as you push others away from the truth due to the tactics).

To use your own quote: “Nor is it uncharitable to rebuke someone in good faith.” Agreed. I’m saying the “moron” jab betrays your contention of good faith.

I’ve seen enough apologetics on this site in 4+ years to know I can’t get an Apologetics Warrior to back down. So, don’t let me stop you from your mission.

I really was only making the initial point in the first place to let all the silent readers know that not all Catholics agree with the use of that kind of off-putting rhetoric. It’s uncharitable, IMO.*

 

[nowcatholic]

If I can ask my dovoutly LDS mother to pray for me when I am having a struggle, why can’t I ask Our Blessed Mother to pray for me?

 

[De_Maria]

It’s not a straw man argument if my characterization is not an exaggeration.

Am I six years old? Are you my mother? No? Then it is definitely an exageration.

Obviously you have your opinion of how you come off and I have mine. Neither is “right” in the sense that neither is a “fact”

But you felt it necessary to criticize me publically without first asking why I made the comment? Very fair of you.

. I’ll point out that at least one person agrees with me (post #24).

And that makes you right?

You can’t say the same.

How do you know?

*.*That would be fine. But truth is not determined by polling. There may be more people who agree with you than with me. But I don’t follow them or you. I follow Jesus and the Apostles.

Also, I never said one shouldn’t “debunk the false”. In fact, I made the clear point that there’s nothing uncharitable about that. It’s the “how” I’m debating. As I said to you in PM, some people can see the distinction between the content of argument and tactics of argument. Apparently you can’t.

In other words, I’m uncharitable because you say so. What do you suggest? Should I clear all my thoughts with you before I write them down?

I’m not quibbling with the content of your argument (“debunk the false”). I’m quibbling with the tactics.

Yes, you are quibbling. And yes, you are quibbling with the content. And my only tactic is to tell the truth.

And my argument is: when you’ve already got the winning argument on the merits, going over the top into kindergarten-worthy tactics brings no extra gain, only potential detriment (as you push others away from the truth due to the tactics).

The problem is that YOU are concerned about winning and losing an argument. YOU are concerned about a popularity contest. It hasn’t occurred to you in the least that I truly believe that Joseph Smith was a conman who named this fictional being “Moroni” because he believed his followers were morons.

bibletopics.com/biblestudy/162-4.htm

In apologetics, I let the truth speak for Himself. I don’t need to make up anything. It is obvious to me that Joseph Smith conned his followers. It is obvious to me that he was arrogant enough to give them a hint they were being conned and still knew he would get away with it.

To use your own quote: “Nor is it uncharitable to rebuke someone in good faith.” Agreed. I’m saying the “moron” jab betrays your contention of good faith.

I suggest you study more on Joseph Smith.

I’ve seen enough apologetics on this site in 4+ years to know I can’t get an Apologetics Warrior to back down. So, don’t let me stop you from your mission.

Close enough.

I really was only making the initial point in the first place to let all the silent readers know that not all Catholics agree with the use of that kind of off-putting rhetoric. It’s uncharitable, IMO.

OK

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[catharina]

Sometimes, the harshness is so rabid on forums.

It doesn’t exactly bring to mind “see how these Christians love one another.” Catholic Answers is an open forum but there are answers and then there answers that are ATTACKS. In another thread, I was asked to state my belief in the words of a certain apparition and prophecy. Literally in all of my life I’d never heard of it. I took the time to check the Catechism regarding apparitions and revelations and such but by the time I went back to post it, the thread had been closed. Still it’s relevant to Church Teaching regarding Mary and all of us should know such facts.

"III. CHRIST JESUS – "MEDIATOR AND FULLNESS OF ALL REVELATION"25

God has said everything in his Word

65 "In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son."26 Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father’s one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. St. John of the Cross, among others, commented strikingly on Hebrews 1:1-2:

In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.27

There will be no further Revelation

66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.

**
67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.**

IN BRIEF

68 By love, God has revealed himself and given himself to man. He has thus provided the definitive, superabundant answer to the questions that man asks himself about the meaning and purpose of his life."

I think for many Protestants, it helps to point out that, in general, the "Marian Apparations" (and special prayers associated with them) are either allowed or forbidden but they are not considered a part of the depoist of the Faith.    


I pray "O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!" because I believe in the goodness and timeliness of that prayer, not becuae I'm forced to pray it.

 

[catharina]

The Catechism also speaks with great veneration of Mary.
For example:

“I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH”

Paragraph 6. Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church

963 Since the Virgin Mary’s role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is ‘clearly the mother of the members of Christ’ . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."502 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."503

I. **MARY’S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH **
Wholly united with her Son . . .

964 Mary’s role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. “This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death”;504 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:

Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother’s heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."505

965 After her Son’s Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."506 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."507

. . . also in her Assumption

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509

. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace

967 By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus)510 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

970 "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514

 

[catharina]

and again from the Catechism, regarding Mary

• II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

971 “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517

III. MARY - ESCHATOLOGICAL ICON OF THE CHURCH

972 After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. In her we contemplate what the Church already is in her mystery on her own “pilgrimage of faith,” and what she will be in the homeland at the end of her journey. There, “in the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity,” "in the communion of all the saints,"518 the Church is awaited by the one she venerates as Mother of her Lord and as her own mother.

In the meantime the Mother of Jesus, in the glory which she possesses in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God.519

IN BRIEF

973 By pronouncing her “fiat” at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.

974 The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son’s Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.

975 “We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ” (Paul VI, CPG § 15).

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

**

Beautiful prayer, the Magnificat, taken straight form the Bible.
All generations will call her blessed and all generations DO call her blessed. We know that because Scripture tells us it’s so.

Blessed Virgin, Blessed Mother, the Handmaid of the Lord.

Who would ignore her and WHY?**

 

[Wampa]

De Maria, there’s probably not much more either of us can say without running in circles. It’s your thread, so I’ll let your last comments be the final word.

 

[po18guy]

Yes. We pray to Mary for intercession. We pray to Mary to praise God’s Creation. We pray to Mary because we love her.

What’s the problem?

There isn’t?

Lets see, first, Jesus chose Mary from all women of all times to be His Mother. Jesus. That means that Jesus was her child, lived in her womb, got nourishment from her through an umbilical cord, sucked at her breast when He was born, PRAYED to her for nourishment when He was hungry, when He was thirsty and when He was cold or hot.

Oh, you don’t understand the word “pray”. The archaic meaning of the word “pray” means to “request”. We still use the archaic meaning because being the original Church of Christ and very ancient, we still use the archaic meaning. In fact, that meaning for the word “pray”, “to request”, is not archaic to us.

Cont’d

Consider the source: A pseudo-Christian who denies Christ’s Divinity. That is a 19th century American invention. You quit the Catholic Church, you get prayers. You quit his church, you get shunned and lose your family.

The peace of the Divine Christ be with you.

 

[Hercules253]

Just adding my 2 cents here. 2 lazy to read all the threads.

First of all, no matter how great the intention seems, there is nowhere in the Bible that encourages praying “through” dead saints including Mary. The Bible doesn’t even say if they can hear our prayers or not and if they can even carry out our prayers.

So far the only thing that the Bible ever mentions about consulting with the dead and spirits is held very very negatively and punishable by death. God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in Heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in Heaven has any greater access to God’s throne that we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).

#2. Who is to assume that asking someone here on Earth to pray for you is the same as asking a someone who passed away to pray for you? The entire Bible never ever mentions anyone asking a passed away person to pray for them! Not once. Also, never in the Bible was there a person in Heaven that prayed for someone on Earth! Not one time!

#3 Jesus already taught us how to pray, who to pray to, and what to pray. Isn’t that good enough?

Payce

 

[Axion]

First of all, no matter how great the intention seems, there is nowhere in the Bible that encourages praying “through” dead saints including Mary. The Bible doesn’t even say if they can hear our prayers or not and if they can even carry out our prayers.

You need to read a little more.
Luke 20:38 **Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him." ** No-one is dead in Jesus. All Christians form one undivided body. (1 Corinthians:12.12-27).
And the Saints in heaven pass on to God the prayers of the Saints on earth:
Revelation 4.4: Surrounding the throne were twenty four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.
Revelation 5.8: …and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

God does not answer prayers based on who is praying.

Wrong.
James 5: 16-18 " …The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit."
Holiness strengthens prayer, so the holier and more righteous the person who prays for us, the better.

#2. Who is to assume that asking someone here on Earth to pray for you is the same as asking a someone who passed away to pray for you? The entire Bible never ever mentions anyone asking a passed away person to pray for them! Not once. Also, never in the Bible was there a person in Heaven that prayed for someone on Earth! Not one time!

The Bible covers the period before Jesus opened heaven to His people following the crucifixion. Things CHANGED with the New Testament. This something some protestants fail to take in. And Jesus and the apostles did speak with Moses and Elijah (who had already been assumed into heaven), at the transfiguration.

#3 Jesus already taught us how to pray, who to pray to, and what to pray. Isn’t that good enough?

You are referring to the Lord’s Prayer, I presume. If you are saying that this is proscriptive, and that is the only prayer that can be made, then do you and the fundamentalist Churches ONLY pray the Lord’s Prayer and nothing else? I don’t think so.

 

[Hercules253]

You need to read a little more.
Luke 20:38 **Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him." ** No-one is dead in Jesus. All Christians form one undivided body. (1 Corinthians:12.12-27).
And the Saints in heaven pass on to God the prayers of the Saints on earth:
Revelation 4.4: Surrounding the throne were twenty four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.
Revelation 5.8: …and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Ummm…what’s your point? All it says was that the elders were holding the prayers. Prayer is connected and represented with incense as in Psalm 141:2: *Let my prayer be set before You as incense, the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice. * You’re right, they ONLY give the prayers already made from saints on Earth to God. That’s their role. Like I said, it still never mentions that heavenly saints can, should, could, or will pray to God on our behalf. When you combine Rev 5:8 and Psalm 141:2, it saying that when we pray TO God our prayers come in a form of incense that heavenly saints ONLY carry to God. It’s not that hard to figure that one out.

Wrong.
James 5: 16-18 " …The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit."
Holiness strengthens prayer, so the holier and more righteous the person who prays for us, the better.

Wrong! That has nothing to being Holy. God wills us to be holy.

1 Thessalonians 4:7
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.

1 Peter 1:15-16
*But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
*
1 Thessalonians 4:7
For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.

Like I said, God ONLY answers prayers according to his will as of the following

John 9:31
*“We know that God does not hear sinners, but those who worship Him and do His will, those He hears.”
*
1 John 5:14–15
14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

Think about it, do you think that He answers prayers outside His will? Of course not. It was God’s will for Elijah to be holier.

The Bible covers the period before Jesus opened heaven to His people following the crucifixion. Things CHANGED with the New Testament. This something some protestants fail to take in. And Jesus and the apostles did speak with Moses and Elijah (who had already been assumed into heaven), at the transfiguration.

Wrong again. Read Luke, Matthew, and Mark a little more carefully. Only Jesus talked to Elijah and Moses. Not the apostles. You’re right things changed, but asking saints in Heaven to pray for us was still NOT one of them.

You are referring to the Lord’s Prayer, I presume. If you are saying that this is proscriptive, and that is the only prayer that can be made, then do you and the fundamentalist Churches ONLY pray the Lord’s Prayer and nothing else? I don’t think so.

I never said the ONLY way to pray was the Our Father. Obviously not. Let me put it this: The entire Bible sheds light on how to pray, what to pray, what we should be like when we pray, and WHO to pray to. The bottom line is, NEVER was it recorded that we should and could ask saints in Heaven to pray for us. Not once!

Matthew 18
19"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

Jesus gave us the biggest hint here and its obviously pointing out to people on Earth. Do you think were suppose to contact spirits or saints in heaven to gather with us? ummm…no

PAYCE

 

[Hercules253]

On a very serious note, I want you to visualize this scenario:

Let’s say that you were living in the the period after Exodus in Moses’ days. Let’s say you were kneeling in front of a statue of Abraham praying (you know, kind of resembling how Catholics pray in front of a Mary statue in Church, even during a rosary session).

Now Moses sees you and you say, “Moses, I know what you’re thinking, but this isn’t an idol, its just a statue of Abraham, kind of like a picture of him. Oh, I’m actually not praying to Abraham, I’m praying through Abraham because he’s like one of our friends that is praying for me.”

Now, what do you think Moses, Aaron, or Joshua would do you that moment? Better yet, what do you think God would do? You see my point? God doesn’t change his mind, He’s the same God back then as He is now.

Some of the Catholic dogmas are just another way to go around that. Its a technical excuse unsound in God’s eyes. I wouldn’t put my faith nor my life in some dead pope’s beliefs and false ideologies just because they said so. God is not the author of confusion and He will reveal the truth through His Word.

 

[Axion]

Ummm…what’s your point? All it says was that the elders were holding the prayers. …Like I said, it still never mentions that heavenly saints can, should, could, or will pray to God on our behalf.

So the heavenly Saints stop praying when they are in heaven? Your source for this…

Wrong! That has nothing to being Holy. God wills us to be holy…
Think about it, do you think that He answers prayers outside His will? Of course not. It was God’s will for Elijah to be holier.

Not all are equally holy. The prayers of the righteous are more effective. That is what the scripture is saying. You seem to be arguing with that. see also
Job 42:7-9 the LORD said to Eli’phaz the Te’manite: "My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and** my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer** not to deal with you according to your folly; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.

Wrong again. Read Luke, Matthew, and Mark a little more carefully. Only Jesus talked to Elijah and Moses. Not the apostles.

The point is the same. Did Jesus, as you allege, commit the sin of necromancy by talking to them?

You’re right things changed, but asking saints in Heaven to pray for us was still NOT one of them.

In your opinion - but not that of Historic Christianity.

Matthew 18

19"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."
Jesus gave us the biggest hint here and its obviously pointing out to people on Earth. Do you think were suppose to contact spirits or saints in heaven to gather with us? ummm…no

1 Corinthians:12.12 For just as the body is one and has many members, **and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–Jews or Greeks, slaves or free–and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many…
25 that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. **27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
You seem to be wanting to divide the Body of Christ by denying that those in heaven can share the prayers, sufferings and rejoicings of fellow members of Christ’s body on earth.
Another scriptural reference to look at is Psalm 103, where the Psalmist asks the heavenly host to join in prayer:
Ps 103:20 “Praise the Lord all you his angels, you mighty ones who do His bidding, you who obey his word. 21 Praise the Lord, all his hosts, all his servants who do his will.”

 

[Axion]

Let’s say that you were living in the the period after Exodus in Moses’ days. Let’s say you were kneeling in front of a statue of Abraham praying (you know, kind of resembling how Catholics pray in front of a Mary statue in Church, even during a rosary session).

Now Moses sees you and you say, “Moses, I know what you’re thinking, but this isn’t an idol, its just a statue of Abraham, kind of like a picture of him. Oh, I’m actually not praying to Abraham, I’m praying through Abraham because he’s like one of our friends that is praying for me.”

Now, what do you think Moses, Aaron, or Joshua would do you that moment? Better yet, what do you think God would do?.

There’s no need to imagine any of it. IT HAPPENED - and God ordered it.

God commanded Moses to create two statues of angels, and place them on top of the Ark of the Covenant, before which people prayed and offered oblation. Would God have done this, if using statues in worship were forbidden? No. Not at all. Later Solomon added more statues to the holy of holies of the temple, and God blessed his work.

 

[Hercules253]

There’s no need to imagine any of it. IT HAPPENED - and God ordered it.

God commanded Moses to create two statues of angels, and place them on top of the Ark of the Covenant, before which people prayed and offered oblation. Would God have done this, if using statues in worship were forbidden? No. Not at all. Later Solomon added more statues to the holy of holies of the temple, and God blessed his work.

First of I never said that statues were forbidden. But I was talking about praying "through"statues which are not mentioned in the Bible at any given point. Also, Moses and his people weren’t praying “through” the cherubins of the ark, they prayed “to” God who was present there over the cherubins and spoke to Moses and Joshua.

Yahweh used to speak to his servant in a cloud over the oracle (Leviticus 16:2).
Big difference

 

[Hercules253]

Thanks for the clarification. I do see how saints in heaven are living, close to God, and should not stop praying, they are also our cloud of witnesses.

Even though the Bible doesn’t exclusively say that, it does logically make sense that Saints shouldn’t stop praying because they are imitating Christ. Also, whatever is done in Heaven should be done on Earth!

 

[Goth_Catholic]

Thanks for the clarification. I do see how saints in heaven are living, close to God, and should not stop praying, they are also our cloud of witnesses.

Even though the Bible doesn’t exclusively say that, it does logically make sense that Saints shouldn’t stop praying because they are imitating Christ. Also, whatever is done in Heaven should be done on Earth!

And on Earth we pray for each other. So to in Heaven.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Consider the source: A pseudo-Christian who denies Christ’s Divinity. That is a 19th century American invention. You quit the Catholic Church, you get prayers. You quit his church, you get shunned and lose your family.

The peace of the Divine Christ be with you.

We should ask Mary to pray for him.

 

[Hercules253]

I understand that Catholics venerate and pray through Mary as oppose to worshiping her and since that saints in heaven are much alive as we are on Earth it’s like requesting a friend to pray for us-which is biblical. Furthermore we can ask saints to pray for us, after all, they shouldn’t stop praying for us especially when they are closer to the Father than we are. I get all that stuff. However I have a few questions.

Question: Kneeling and revering to anyone was rebuked immediately such as Acts 10:25, we find St. Peter, the Rock of the Catholic Church, telling Cornelius to stand up and not to revere him.

As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, "I am only a man myself."

So why do Catholics get on their knees and “revere” Mary when St. Peter, the supposed founder of the Catholic Church himself rejected his own reverence?
According to that same criteria, is it acceptable to physically get on my knees and bow in front of my best friend asking him or her to pray for me to Jesus on his/her behalf?
Is that acceptable? Why or why not?
Is it acceptable to carve a wooden image or create a 20 foot golden image in a designated grotto I built in my back yard of my priest or bishop and get on my knees, clasp my hands together, and ask that image (representing them) to pray for me? Is that acceptable to the Catholic Community? According to that same logic, it should be right?

If I can ask a statue representing Mary to intercede for us, can I make a golden statue of Elijah, Zachariah, Moses, or Enoch near the altar and get on my knees, surround the statues with candles and flowers, burn incense, and ask them to pray for us? After all, they were considered righteous and 2 of the 3 were taken into Heaven or appeared during the transfiguration meaning they have closer access to God

Luke 4:8 *“You shall do homage to the Lord your God; Him alone shall you adore.”
*
Isn’t adore and venerate the same thing? Every single episode in the Bible, reverence was equated to worship.

Why is it permissible to create statues representing Mary when NO ONE KNOWS WHAT SHE REALLY LOOKS LIKE?

 

[elvisman]

I understand that Catholics venerate and pray through Mary as oppose to worshiping her and since that saints in heaven are much alive as we are on Earth it’s like requesting a friend to pray for us-which is biblical. Furthermore we can ask saints to pray for us, after all, they shouldn’t stop praying for us especially when they are closer to the Father than we are. I get all that stuff. However I have a few questions.

Question: Kneeling and revering to anyone was rebuked immediately such as Acts 10:25, we find St. Peter, the Rock of the Catholic Church, telling Cornelius to stand up and not to revere him.

As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”

So why do Catholics get on their knees and “revere” Mary when St. Peter, the supposed founder of the Catholic Church himself rejected his own reverence?
According to that same criteria, is it acceptable to physically get on my knees and bow in front of my best friend asking him or her to pray for me to Jesus on his/her behalf?
Is that acceptable? Why or why not?
Is it acceptable to carve a wooden image or create a 20 foot golden image in a designated grotto I built in my back yard of my priest or bishop and get on my knees, clasp my hands together, and ask that image (representing them) to pray for me? Is that acceptable to the Catholic Community? According to that same logic, it should be right?

If I can ask a statue representing Mary to intercede for us, can I make a golden statue of Elijah, Zachariah, Moses, or Enoch near the altar and get on my knees, surround the statues with candles and flowers, burn incense, and ask them to pray for us? After all, they were considered righteous and 2 of the 3 were taken into Heaven or appeared during the transfiguration meaning they have closer access to God

Luke 4:8 "You shall do homage to the Lord your God; Him alone shall you adore."

Isn’t adore and venerate the same thing? Every single episode in the Bible, reverence was equated to worship.

Why is it permissible to create statues representing Mary when NO ONE KNOWS WHAT SHE REALLY LOOKS LIKE?

There you go again - spouting off against things you know absolutely nothing about.

First of all - “venerate” and “adore” are two totally different things.
Veneration means:
To regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference or to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion.

Adoration means:
To worship or honor as a deity or as divine.

Your allusion to Luke 4:8 has no validity because we aren’t worshipping anybody but God.

Secondly, no Catholic that I’ve ever known has ever asked a statue of Mary ANYTHING. We ask HER - not the statue to pray for us. Statues and images are prayer aids that remind us of who we’re conversing with - much like a printed copy of the bible you undoubtedly use.

**Thirdly - you can pray standing up, lying down or standing on your head. Most people tend to pray on their knees. **

As for your sophomoric assertion that we shouldn’t have statues of Mary because nobody knows what she loks like - what about representations of Jesus? Or Atilla the Hun or other historic figures? We go by what we envision them to be based on the information we have.

**Lastly, your incorrect statement that "Every single episode in the Bible, reverence was equated to worship" is dead wrong. I already showed you on another thread that Joshua and the Israelite leaders laid prostrate in the dirt before the Ark - an object. **
Were they “worshipping”? According to you, they were, but according to an educated Jew or Christian - they were showing respect.

You just won’t give up with your ignorant Catholic-bashing, will you?
Just keep reading and researching - you might come to know the truth.