Defending Life Teen!

[kage_ar]

Cradle - you were doing great til you mentioned the heretical “Mary Did You Know”. That one slaps Catholic teaching in the face. Search these forums and read the discussion (some thoughtful and some whacky) about that song, and pray about dropping it from your list. Stick with good Catholic songs!

 

[benedictgal]

I don’t know much about life teen. however do you notice that st. Paul in the epistles talks on how the gifts of the holy spirit at holy assemblies is important. you of course do not see this happening before mass or after. do you notice that every time worship music is discussed that if your not standing like a stone and lip syncing traditional Irish catholic or Renaissance music your just viewed as emotional or theatrical. has any of these critics died and went to heaven? and what kind and how much music is there? do you think king David dances wildly before the lord or did a catholic intellectual pull him aside and explain how it ought to be done?. or explain to the 24 elders who throw themselves before our God not to get to carried away. there is a love working in balanced measure. then there are the traditions of men that make the word of God unaccesable.

In last week’s epistle, St. Paul also said to “test all things”. This would certainly include LifeTeen.

I also find it rather interesting that when deviances to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass are mentioned, well-meaning folks tend to use King David and his dance as a means to justify practices that have no place in the liturgy. King David’s actions were not part of the official cultic worship of God as practiced by Ancient Israel. It was a spontaneous activity that occurred outside of the context of sacrificial worship.

The “traditions of men” that you note in your post, do not take into account that the Lord, Himself, authorized St. Peter and his successors to be the ones to safeguard His Church. Therefore, it certainly falls to Peter to be the one to regulate and protect the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Therefore no one has any right to add anything to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that doesn’t belong there.

When Jesus made his comment about the “traditions of men” he was referring to the Pharisees who had added things to the Mosaic Law that didn’t need to be there. He understood what it had been done. The Pharisees at the time of the Babylonian exile (when this group had its beginnings) realized that the main reason they were in the hole they were in was because they failed to obey the Lord. They figured, as well-meaning as they were, that if they started adding safeguards to the Law, it would help the people to keep from straying. Unfortunately, they went too far. That is why Jesus said what He said.

Nonetheless, to apply this comment to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and use it as a defense of LifeTeen is to miss the boat completely, in my opinion.

 

[Dauphin]

As someone who was a “teen” just 6 months ago, I say dispense with the “Life-Teen” novelty and rediscover the authentic western Catholic tradition - the Traditional Latin Mass. Nothing else will do. Transcendence, mystery, and tradition in the liturgy is sorely needed.

 

[Brendan]

Several former officers of my Knights of Columbus council reject the idea that there can be such things as eastern rites of the Catholic Church. .

The local Byzantine parish has a Council. They affectionately call themselves the “Cossacks of Columbus”

 

[FCEGM]

Then go through and purge all the lutheran hymns, too… oh, wait… that takes about 1/3rd of the traditional songbooks of the early 20thC.

And the Anglican ones, too… oh, another large chunk.

What Child is This: it’s set to a love song by Henry VIII…

Most church music has secular origins, except plainchant.

It is not so much that a given hymn was written by a Protestant, but whether it accurately reflects Catholic doctrine. In the case of “Mary, Did You Know”, it most certainly doesn’t. Our young people, for the most part, are not prepared to be attuned to authentic teaching vs. aberrant teaching and so can easily be seduced by heterodoxy set to music.

 

[Sarabande]

We have no need to draw our hymns from Protestants.

Ok… one thing we have to make clear is that one of the only kind of music which was originally for sacred worship is chant - even prior to Christianity. So, if we are trying to argue in that vein, that would mean we’d have to knock out almost every century of sacred and religious music, except for chant. And I don’t believe the Church means for us to do that as she has permitted certain kinds of music throughout the centuries and banned others.

The theories and rules of western music were developed - many times by religious in the Church - and was based upon its version of sacred chant, which eventually became the western art scale that almost all of our music in western culture is derived.

Almost all other sacred and religious music had either secular origins and sometimes Protestant origins. Polyphony, for example (and you can find a number of threads discussing this), started off as secular music and was considered “liscivious” and “immoral”. It made its way into the mass and for a few centuries was banned by a few popes. It wasn’t until that kind of music was refined and changed to reflect more sacredness and to be closer to chant that the bans were lifted. And that’s the key word - refined. The music had to be changed before it would be considered appropriate for mass. If you hear or have performed secular polyphonic works from the time period, it’s more jocular and “bouncy”. Most sacred polyphonic works are the opposite.

Many hymns had it’s origins in actual secular melodies - some even based from drinking songs or common folk melodies. Again, the music though was refined, and some to the point where it isn’t recognizable as a secular piece of music anymore.

“Greensleeves” (aka “What Child is This”) is an English folk song and melody. It is a known perpetuated myth that the song was written by Henry VIII. But again, another example of a hymn taking a melody from a folk song and incorporating it as a hymn.

Protestants and Catholics do share their hymn melodies and sometimes the texts. Once the music is evaluated to be determined if it was refined enough to be appropriate for mass, the text then needs to be scrutinized and evaluated to be sure that it doesn’t go against Church teaching.

That is what needs to be done with P&W music and other secular styles that is used in LT masses. It’s style might be secular in origin, but it also needs to be analyzed as to how and if it can be refined enough for appropriateness for mass. Without destroying the integrity of that kind of style, I don’t believe it can be refined, which is why I would be of the mindset to save this kind of religious music for before or after mass. Use sacred music and other forms of religious music that was successfully refined for mass. I don’t see why there would be a problem of having a mix like this for LT masses. It wouldn’t be getting rid of their P&W and other religious rock songs before or after mass. At the same time, it would also be perpetuating and using the sacred and traditional music of the Church during the mass so that it will be a part of them as well.

 

[brigid12]

As someone who was a “teen” just 6 months ago, I say dispense with the “Life-Teen” novelty and rediscover the authentic western Catholic tradition - the Traditional Latin Mass. Nothing else will do. Transcendence, mystery, and tradition in the liturgy is sorely needed.

Cradle, maybe you can answer Sarabande’s question since you have been working in it? And if you don’t know of any parish doing the chant, EF, etc., then what’s your opinion of why that is so?

 

[VociMike]

Cradle, maybe you can answer Sarabande’s question since you have been working in it? And if you don’t know of any parish doing the chant, EF, etc., then what’s your opinion of why that is so?

OK, now I’m getting curious too. Somebody suggested that there were about 52,000 Sunday LifeTeen Masses in the past year. How many of them, approximately, gave Gregorian chant pride of place, as required by Vatican II? How many of them featured sacred polyphony, which is also held up for special esteem by Vatican II?

 

[benedictgal]

OK, now I’m getting curious too. Somebody suggested that there were about 52,000 Sunday LifeTeen Masses in the past year. How many of them, approximately, gave Gregorian chant pride of place, as required by Vatican II? How many of them featured sacred polyphony, which is also held up for special esteem by Vatican II?

Having looked at the guidebook they use for the Mass, I seriously doubt that anybody has done that. The book seems to go hand in hand with the OCP songbook Spirit and Song.

I could, I hope, be wrong. Maybe some LifeTeen program out there would be willing to buck the trend and try something Traditional for a change. I sincerely hope that would happen (or is happening).

But, the bottom line is that the ones who ultimately make that decision are the Adult Core leaders and not the kids, themselves. The adults lay out the program so the kids pretty much are exposed to what the adults put in front of them.

 

[cradlecatholic4]

Thanks for the pat on the back for service . I truly feel called to serve the Lord in the youth ministry. But Wow – I have to say I am some what surprised at the response. I have heard Mary Did you Know sung at many masses, aside from Life Teen. Does that mean we should throw them out the door too? I have to admit I have not dissected every word of every sentence in the song. I believe it to be a beautiful song. I have always said, Catholics have to get over their way of thinking that it has to be Catholic or it isn’t right. When we draw lines it the sand, we alienate ourselves from every other faith that “doesn’t see eye to eye with the Catholic church”. And that my brothers and sisters in Christ will never bring about the unity among different faiths. I am not advocating walking away from church teachings. But, it doesn’t alway have to be a Catholic thing to be the right thing!

Benedictal & others of like mind, where is that the “Life Teen movement” has mistreated the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? Some specifics would either help me respond or identify where there is error in an LT mass. There was a time when all the teens gathered around the altar during all LT masses. When the bishops asked us to cease, we obediently ceased.

I am so deeply concerned over those in the church that say here is the box and if you do anything outside of the box you’re a heretic or involved in an attempt to overthrow papal authority. So, with all due respect, please tell me where LT has butchered the sacrifice of the mass. That my friend is a question worth responding.

With regard to music, we do have drums, guitar, tambourine, and a keyboard. But who do you think is playing the instruments? 15-18 year old Catholics who are using their God given talents to do what? “Praise and Worship” Him! Now that might not be to your liking, and some bishops may not like it. But how does that take away from the sacrifice of the mass? We acknowledge the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith and the mass.

Look forward to your response.

 

[VociMike]

With regard to music, we do have drums, guitar, tambourine, and a keyboard. But who do you think is playing the instruments? 15-18 year old Catholics who are using their God given talents to do what? “Praise and Worship” Him! Now that might not be to your liking, and some bishops may not like it. But how does that take away from the sacrifice of the mass? We acknowledge the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith and the mass.

Look forward to your response.

My response is just to repeat my question. Out of 52,000 LifeTeen Masses in a year, roughly how many heed the Vatican II requirement to give Gregorian Chant pride of place? How many heed Vatican II in that sacred polyphony is also to be particularly esteemed?

Now please don’t tell me that 15-18 year olds can play instruments but they can’t sing. So what’s up? LifeTeen isn’t opposed to Vatican II, is it?

 

[benedictgal]

I was doing some research on LifeTeen when I came across this statement that Jimmy Akin made on his website regarding the movement. Inasmuch as these comments were made in 2004, after Rome told LifeTeen to fix the problems concerning the Mass, His comments concern the reaction that some of the leaders of the LifeTeen movement had to the decision from the Holy See. I believe that they are appropriate for the discussion at hand:

This illustrates the problem that is generated when individuals diverge from Church law (or teaching). Doing so encourages people to think and act in objectively problematic ways and to form emotional attachments to things that are at variance with the Church’s praxis (or doctrine). Consequently, people are set up for a rude awakening when they find out that what they have been taught or habituated to is not, in fact, what the Church requires.

Young people are particularly vulnerable to such disappointements due to the intellectual and emotional conditions to which they are subject. Some may feel such sharp disappointment that it may injure their inner adherence to the Church, which could lead to lapses in the practice of the faith or outright rebellion and alienation from it.

It is much better for all if programs are built on a solid foundation from the beginning, for a house built without a solid foundation will encounter problems.

This brings me to my original question, and I direct this to the Adult core leaders who may be reading this. When and why didi LifeTeen decide to make amendments to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? Was it really necessary to make these changes?

The thing is that when we try to amend the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to fit our own needs, we have completely missed the boat as to what the liturgy really is. The Mass is supposed to draw us into the Divine Majesty of God. It is supposed to lift the veil between heaven and earth and unite the entire Church, those seen and unseen. Are the kids even aware of that? Furthermore, the music is supposed to draw us into the mysteries that are unfolding before us and to help us focus on what is happening. During the Mass, we are just as present at the Upper Room, at Calvary and at the tomb as were the Blessed Mother, the Apostles and St. Mary Magdalene. Do the kids understand that?

 

[benedictgal]

Thanks for the pat on the back for service . I truly feel called to serve the Lord in the youth ministry. But Wow – I have to say I am some what surprised at the response. I have heard Mary Did you Know sung at many masses, aside from Life Teen. Does that mean we should throw them out the door too? I have to admit I have not dissected every word of every sentence in the song. I believe it to be a beautiful song. I have always said, Catholics have to get over their way of thinking that it has to be Catholic or it isn’t right. When we draw lines it the sand, we alienate ourselves from every other faith that “doesn’t see eye to eye with the Catholic church”. And that my brothers and sisters in Christ will never bring about the unity among different faiths. I am not advocating walking away from church teachings. But, it doesn’t alway have to be a Catholic thing to be the right thing!

Benedictal & others of like mind, where is that the “Life Teen movement” has mistreated the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? Some specifics would either help me respond or identify where there is error in an LT mass. There was a time when all the teens gathered around the altar during all LT masses. When the bishops asked us to cease, we obediently ceased.

I am so deeply concerned over those in the church that say here is the box and if you do anything outside of the box you’re a heretic or involved in an attempt to overthrow papal authority. So, with all due respect, please tell me where LT has butchered the sacrifice of the mass. That my friend is a question worth responding.

With regard to music, we do have drums, guitar, tambourine, and a keyboard. But who do you think is playing the instruments? 15-18 year old Catholics who are using their God given talents to do what? “Praise and Worship” Him! Now that might not be to your liking, and some bishops may not like it. But how does that take away from the sacrifice of the mass? We acknowledge the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith and the mass.

Look forward to your response.

It is very important that the music used at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass reflect the teachings of the Church. Yes, it would be a good idea to dissect the lyrics to make sure that they are in conformity with what the Church believes and teaches. As a Core team member, you have that responsibility since you have the charge of these young people.

Regarding the music, are you not aware that this issue was brought up by the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist. They found the music used at Youth Masses to be a shadow and problematic. This is from the Lineamata (working document):

In other responses some lamented the poor quality of translations of liturgical texts and many musical texts in current languages, maintaining that they lacked beauty and were sometimes theologically unclear, thereby contributing to a weakening of Church teaching and to a misunderstanding of prayer. ***A few responses made particular mention of music and singing at Youth ***Masses. In this regard, it is important to avoid musical forms which, because of their profane use, are not conducive to prayer. Some responses note a certain eagerness in composing new songs, to the point of almost yielding to a consumer mentality, showing little concern for the quality of the music and text, and easily overlooking the artistic patrimony which has been theologically and musically effective in the Church’s liturgy.

So, it’s not just a couple of bishops that have had problems with the type of music used at Youth Masses. The problem got to the point that it was included as a shadow that needed to be brought to light.

This concern drew a response from Pope Benedict XVI in Sacramentum Caritatis, where he notes that:

Liturgical song

1. In the ars celebrandi, liturgical song has a pre-eminent place. (126) Saint Augustine rightly says in a famous sermon that “the new man sings a new song. Singing is an expression of joy and, if we consider the matter, an expression of love” (127). The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129). Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed (130) as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy (131).

Thus, to take a relative viewpoint regarding the use of praise and worship music within the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is to pretty much ignore, in my opinion, the concerns raised both by the Synod Fathers and the Holy Father.

Regarding the “box”, no one has any authority to do with the Mass as they please. The “box” you refer to is no less than the rubrics and norms set forth by the Holy See for the proper celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

The only form of creativity that is allowed is flexibility in choosing the readings and propers of the Mass. But, these must come from the authoritative documents of the Holy See.

I have yet to receive a response to my initial questions regarding LifeTeen and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[Aramis]

My response is just to repeat my question. Out of 52,000 LifeTeen Masses in a year, roughly how many heed the Vatican II requirement to give Gregorian Chant pride of place? How many heed Vatican II in that sacred polyphony is also to be particularly esteemed?

Now please don’t tell me that 15-18 year olds can play instruments but they can’t sing. So what’s up? LifeTeen isn’t opposed to Vatican II, is it?

Pride of place is not a synonym for exclusive use nor mandatory use, nor even may not use others. Your question therefore, is a non-sequitor, as the obligation is not on a per mass basis.

It is akin to asking how many hockey games last season followed the rules on injured officials… the conditions didn’t require them most of the time, so they don’t happen to be acted upon.

 

[kage_ar]

I have heard Mary Did you Know sung at many masses, aside from Life Teen. Does that mean we should throw them out the door too? I have to admit I have not dissected every word of every sentence in the song. I believe it to be a beautiful song. I have always said, Catholics have to get over their way of thinking that it has to be Catholic or it isn’t right. When we draw lines it the sand, we alienate ourselves from every other faith that “doesn’t see eye to eye with the Catholic church”. .

During Mass, we should NEVER sing a song, or hear words spoken, that deny Mary’s Fiat. Yes, Mary knew. An angel appered to her, told her, and she agreed. Mary was spouse of the Holy Spirit, she was not accosted by Him, yes she knew.

Mary was born without sin, we are to call her blessed, not stupid.

The song you sing implies that she was an unwitting imbecil. It is a slap to our Holy Mother.

 

[VociMike]

Pride of place is not a synonym for exclusive use nor mandatory use, nor even may not use others. Your question therefore, is a non-sequitor, as the obligation is not on a per mass basis.

I never suggested any of the above, so it is your answer that is a non sequitur. I simply asked (repeating for the 3rd time, for clarity) how many of the roughly 52,000 LifeTeen Masses a year give Gregorian Chant pride of place, as required by Vatican II, or employ sacred polyphony, held up for special esteem by Vatican II. Surely there must be some, right? Assuming that the LifeTeen movement abides by the clear words of Vatican II. Why get so defensive regarding the question?

 

[Solomon_Wisdom]

We don’t have “Life Teen” or anything similar in the UK.

Sadly we don’t have many teens attending regular mass either. In the UK the Church doesn’t seem to engage teens particularly well (comapred with my Methodist upbringing which did a great deal with teens, but it could be that the times have changed rather than something better about the Methodist engagement of teens).

But I don’t think there is a simple answer. I have two teenage daughters and one loves modern worship songs and the other much prefers very traditional music and liturgy. And perhaps that is the real warning - never think that one solution will fit everyone.

Personally I don’t know if the solution is some more teen-oriented worship or is better catechesis and better understanding of what the mass is (or all of those things). But we certainly do have a problem, and the solution must start with being able to acknowledge that.

 

[FCEGM]

Thanks for the pat on the back for service . I truly feel called to serve the Lord in the youth ministry. But Wow – I have to say I am some what surprised at the response. I have heard Mary Did you Know sung at many masses, aside from Life Teen. Does that mean we should throw them out the door too? I have to admit I have not dissected every word of every sentence in the song. I believe it to be a beautiful song. I have always said, Catholics have to get over their way of thinking that it has to be Catholic or it isn’t right. When we draw lines it the sand, we alienate ourselves from every other faith that “doesn’t see eye to eye with the Catholic church”. And that my brothers and sisters in Christ will never bring about the unity among different faiths. I am not advocating walking away from church teachings. But, it doesn’t alway have to be a Catholic thing to be the right thing!

“Mary, Did You Know”, however charming the melody, expresses doctrines opposed to the Church’s teaching regarding the Blessed Virgin. You have - with great devotion, I’m sure - taken on the responsibility to help form our youth in the Catholic Faith. When Catholic parents entrust their children to the instructors in the LifeTeen program, they want the Catholic Faith - and nothing that contradicts it - taught to their children who are not yet able to discern very well the true from the false. Unity in Faith does not come about by watering-down or ill-expressing the Faith of the Church, but by expressing it accurately and with charity.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

I am so deeply concerned over those in the church that say here is the box and if you do anything outside of the box you’re a heretic or involved in an attempt to overthrow papal authority.

Cradlecatholic,

I don’t think anyone here has said that deviations make one a heretic or indicate a desire to overthrow papal authority.

And sometimes boxes can be useful. They can protect cherished memories from corrosive effects of fad or trend. They can keep treasures from falling out and rolling away.

God bless,
VC

 

[brigid12]

During Mass, we should NEVER sing a song, or hear words spoken, that deny Mary’s Fiat. Yes, Mary knew. An angel appered to her, told her, and she agreed. Mary was spouse of the Holy Spirit, she was not accosted by Him, yes she knew.

Mary was born without sin, we are to call her blessed, not stupid.

The song you sing implies that she was an unwitting imbecil. It is a slap to our Holy Mother.

Cradlecatholic,

I don’t think anyone here has said that deviations make one a heretic or indicate a desire to overthrow papal authority.

And sometimes boxes can be useful. They can protect cherished memories from corrosive effects of fad or trend. They can keep treasures from falling out and rolling away.

God bless,
VC

:yup: