Defending the Catholic Faith

[2nd_Adam]

Well, this is why I spend so much time here. I learn something new every day!

Of course you would have to, otherwise you would not be able to cling to the fruits of it. It is similar to Catholics calling the Fall of Adam “oh necessary sin of Adam”.

However, God never “causes” sin, separation, division, devouring of the members of His Body and departure from what He instituted. There were plenty of sins on both sides of the Reformation. None of them were “caused by God”.

Just like Joseph, God does allow evil to happen for His reasons. He is never the author of evil, but yet He allows and permits evil acts to happen through divine providence. So, the Reformation was the will of God by allowing, permitting, or even raising up Luther for His divine purpose. Evil is quite the mystery… because God knew Adam and Eve would fall in the condition that He put them in. Could God have destroyed the Serpent prior to the Fall? Of course! Did God have to command Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge? Or course not. Here’s why I think the Reformed Faith is able to see God in a greater light than Catholic theology. I would say that God does everything for His own glory. And what God does is glorious, worthy of all our praise, love and affection… because God is awesome, amazing, prefect, and Holy… and in Him there is not darkness and all because His is completely pure. God is light. Catholic theology (IMO), exhalts man at the expense of a completely sovereign God. Free will is a humanistic idea which is a non-scriptural concept.

 

[zerinus]

Just like Jospeh, God does allow evil to happen for His reasons. He is never the author of evil, but yet He allows and permits evil acts to Heaven through providence. So, the Reformation was the will of God by allowing or even raising up Luther for His divine purpose.

What was that divine purpose?

 

[benedictus2]

There was a movement that came out of a Reformed circles about 6 years ago, which went beyonnd Reformed distinctives. The movement had a few nicknames. One of the nickname to this sub group was called a Catholic Calvinism. I still believe that the Reformation was caused by God.

No it was not caused by God. But He did allow it. Same way He allowed Adam to sin. Free will you know.

 

[benedictus2]

Just like Joseph, God does allow evil to happen for His reasons. He is never the author of evil, but yet He allows and permits evil acts to happen through divine providence. So, the Reformation was the will of God by allowing, permitting, or even raising up Luther for His divine purpose. Evil is quite the mystery… because God knew Adam and Eve would fall in the condition that He put them in. Could God have destroyed the Serpent prior to the Fall? Of course! Did God have to command Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge? Or course not. Here’s why I think the Reformed Faith is able to see God in a greater light than Catholic theology. I would say that God does everything for His own glory. And what God does is glorious, worthy of all our praise, love and affection… because God is awesome, amazing, prefect, and Holy… and in Him there is not darkness and all because His is completely pure. God is light. Catholic theology (IMO), exhalts man at the expense of a completely sovereign God. Free will is a humanistic idea which is a non-scriptural concept.

Actually, your idea shows an evil, psychopathic God. If free will is a non-scriptural idea then God created man for the express purpose of sending them to hell. So now we have a God that is evil. God that IS NOT love at all.

I doubt that is the kind of God that scripture speaks of .

I suggest that when you come up with this explanations, you extend them fully so you can see where exactly it leads.

God did not raise Luther to cause the breaking of His Body, but having created Luther and knowing He is pridefull and wilfull enough to do that, then He puts in a wonderful solution to it.

Much in the same way that though Adam has sinned, Christ’s redemption brings man to a state higher than before the fall. But it still means that Adam sinned. And sin is not a good thing. It just means that God is able to bring a greater good out of the evil we do. So what Luther did remains evil.

Although we do say in the Exultet, O Felix Culpa.

 

[benedictus2]

The Reformation was not caused by God.

Too right. That would be like saying God caused me to sin

 

[2nd_Adam]

Actually, your idea shows an evil, psychopathic God. If free will is a non-scriptural idea then God created man for the express purpose of sending them to hell. So now we have a God that is evil. God that IS NOT love at all.

I doubt that is the kind of God that scripture speaks of .

I suggest that when you come up with this explanations, you extend them fully so you can see where exactly it leads.

God did not raise Luther to cause the breaking of His Body, but having created Luther and knowing He is pridefull and wilfull enough to do that, then He puts in a wonderful solution to it.

Much in the same way that though Adam has sinned, Christ’s redemption brings man to a state higher than before the fall. But it still means that Adam sinned. And sin is not a good thing. It just means that God is able to bring a greater good out of the evil we do. So what Luther did remains evil.

Although we do say in the Exultet, O Felix Culpa.

The paradox which Reformed Christians face is the same one that Catholic theologians face. I think if you study the different allowable views in the origin of evil by Catholic theologians, you would find that their beliefs are probably closer to me than your own personal view. All I ask is to honestly represent what Reformed Christians actually believe on the subject. Here’s help to understand where I am coming from:

monergism.com/

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by zerinus
The Reformation was not caused by God.

Too right. That would be like saying God caused me to sin

I really sense that many Catholics do not see God to be completely sovereign which confuses me.

 

[guanophore]

Just like Joseph, God does allow evil to happen for His reasons. He is never the author of evil, but yet He allows and permits evil acts to happen through divine providence. So, the Reformation was the will of God by allowing, permitting, or even raising up Luther for His divine purpose.

No, 2nd. I don’t think God raised up Luther for a divine purpose. God’s purposes do not create division, separation, and falling away from His previous Revelation.

 Catholic theology (IMO), exhalts man at the expense of a completely sovereign God.

I am confused about this statement. Perhaps you can elaborate?

Free will is a humanistic idea which is a non-scriptural concept.

LOL.

You are right, this is a radical departure that Reformed Theology makes from what Jesus taught.

In fact, the nature of free will is part of the image of God in which we are created. It predated modern humanism by millenia!

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

Deu 30:20 loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days-…

What you are suggesting is that God is just teasing humanity, by pretending that there is a choice, when there is not.

The biggest fallacy of this approach is the nature of Love itself, which is free, giving, and is always affirming self donation. If it is not possible to choose then it is not really love.

 

[guanophore]

I really sense that many Catholics do not see God to be completely sovereign which confuses me.

Actually, I think what you are seeing is what the Apostles believed and taught, which was not Total Depravity. God is completely sovereign, but in His sovereignty, He has created man so that man may choose.

 

[Selene]

Just like Joseph, God does allow evil to happen for His reasons. He is never the author of evil, but yet He allows and permits evil acts to happen through divine providence. So, the Reformation was the will of God by allowing, permitting, or even raising up Luther for His divine purpose. Evil is quite the mystery… because God knew Adam and Eve would fall in the condition that He put them in. Could God have destroyed the Serpent prior to the Fall? Of course! Did God have to command Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge? Or course not. Here’s why I think the Reformed Faith is able to see God in a greater light than Catholic theology. I would say that God does everything for His own glory. And what God does is glorious, worthy of all our praise, love and affection… because God is awesome, amazing, prefect, and Holy… and in Him there is not darkness and all because His is completely pure. God is light. Catholic theology (IMO), exhalts man at the expense of a completely sovereign God. Free will is a humanistic idea which is a non-scriptural concept.

Hello 2nd Adam

It is man who chooses to do evil, and God allows man to make those choices because He values man’s free will. The Reformation was never willed by God nor was the Fall of man willed by God. The freedom to choose came was given to man so that man can choose to love and worship God out of his own free will. God does not force anyone to follow Him, which is why He gave mankind free will. He wants man to choose to follow Him. Free will is found in Scripture.

Joshua 24:15 If it does not please you to serve the Lord, decide today whom you will serve, the gods your fathers served beyond the river or the gods of the Amorites in whose country you are dwelling. As for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.

Peace be with you,
Selene

 

[StormSurfer]

No faith needs defending. You can defend it if you want too, but why would a religion based on the divinity of God, Jesus, and the Spirit, need human defending? In the end, no faith needs defending. You can “attack” my beliefs if you want, but I doubt I’d defend them. Why should I? Your not going to gain anything, your going to lose time you could have spend practicing your faith, or bettering yourself.

 

[2nd_Adam]

No faith needs defending. You can defend it if you want too, but why would a religion based on the divinity of God, Jesus, and the Spirit, need human defending? In the end, no faith needs defending. You can “attack” my beliefs if you want, but I doubt I’d defend them. Why should I? Your not going to gain anything, your going to lose time you could have spend practicing your faith, or bettering yourself.

I think Scripture would disagree with your posting. You can start with Jude 1:3.

Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

 

[zerinus]

No faith needs defending. You can defend it if you want too, but why would a religion based on the divinity of God, Jesus, and the Spirit, need human defending? In the end, no faith needs defending. You can “attack” my beliefs if you want, but I doubt I’d defend them. Why should I? Your not going to gain anything, your going to lose time you could have spend practicing your faith, or bettering yourself.

Do you believe in teching or preaching your rligion? Do you think that your religion is a good thing? Do you think that it would be a good idea if others joined your religion? Do you think it would do them good if they did? If so, would you actively want to persuade them to join your religion, or at least to give them correct information about it?

 

[StormSurfer]

I think Scripture would disagree with your posting. You can start with Jude 1:3.

Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

Scripture may dis-agree with me, but do you?

I have found my faith, and apparently you have too, and I wish you luck with yours. I don’t blame you if you don’t wish me the same.

Do you believe in teching or preaching your rligion? Do you think that your religion is a good thing? Do you think that it would be a good idea if others joined your religion? Do you think it would do them good if they did? If so, would you actively want to persuade them to join your religion, or at least to give them correct information about it?

I don’t preach my religion, I will tell you what it is, and why I believen it, if you ask, not for just saying. I would never go door to door to try to convert people to Taoism or Shinto. If they are curious, they might run it to it on their google search, if not, then good luck with them. I don’t care if your Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, or Muslim, if you tolerate me, I will tolerate you in return.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Scripture may dis-agree with me, but do you?

I have found my faith, and apparently you have too, and I wish you luck with yours. I don’t blame you if you don’t wish me the same.

Since you are a Catholic Christian, I am warning you that your statement might cause the wrath of Orthodox Catholics coming down on you.

 

[StormSurfer]

Since you are a Catholic Christian, I am warning you that your statement might cause the wrath of Orthodox Catholics coming down on you.

I am not a Catholic Christian. I am not a Christian. I do not know where you are getting this from, I am a follower of Taoism (Daoism) and Shinto.

 

[zerinus]

I don’t preach my religion, I will tell you what it is, and why I believen it, if you ask, not for just saying. I would never go door to door to try to convert people to Taoism or Shinto. If they are curious, they might run it to it on their google search, if not, then good luck with them. I don’t care if your Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, or Muslim, if you tolerate me, I will tolerate you in return.

Thank you. That is a fundamental difference between the philosophies of the two types of religions. The Christian religion is something that must be preached. Jesus’ commandment was, “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned” (Mark 16:15–16). All the Apostles were preachers of the Gospel, and all of them suffered terrible persecutions because of it. In fact they gave their lives for it. Now in your religious tradition that apparently is not a requirement. And that is a very big difference between the two. That means that what is good for your religion may not be good for my religion.

Even in the case of your religion, you didn’t really answer my question properly. Do you believe in giving correct information to people about your religion? Apparently you do, otherwise you wouldn’t be here. Your post in this very thread is an attempt at giving correct information about your religion that may be the subject of misunderstanding by others. Well, giving correct information about your religion is one step away from defending it against incorrect information given about it by others.

 

[StormSurfer]

Thank you. That is a fundamental difference between the philosophies of the two types of religions. The Christian religion is something that must be preached. Jesus’ commandment was, “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned” (Mark 16:15–16). All the Apostles were preachers of the Gospel, and all of them suffered terrible persecutions because of it. In fact they gave their lives for it. Now in your religious tradition that apparently is not a requirement. And that is a very big difference between the two. That means that what is good for your religion may not be good for my religion.

Even in the case of your religion, you didn’t really answer my question properly. Do you believe in giving correct information to people about your religion? Apparently you do, otherwise you wouldn’t be here. Your post in this very thread is an attempt at giving correct information about your religion that may be the subject of misunderstanding by others. Well, giving correct information about your religion is one step away from defending it against incorrect information given about it by others.

I am not here to give correct information, I am here to talk to a old friend that I trust. I know exactly what would happen if I came here to teach of my beliefs. I’d be bashed, and spat on by ye people of faith. Yes, I know this cause I tried it once, and it happened. I don’t even try to explain my beliefs to 90% of people because in the end, they just rely on ignorance and bigotry.

I posted in this thread to point out my stance on why people shouldn’t have to defend their faith against others. Who cares? Their human, they’ll be dead probably within 100 years and never be seen on this Earth again.

 

[zerinus]

I am not here to give correct information, I am here to talk to a old friend that I trust. I know exactly what would happen if I came here to teach of my beliefs. I’d be bashed, and spat on by ye people of faith. Yes, I know this cause I tried it once, and it happened. I don’t even try to explain my beliefs to 90% of people because in the end, they just rely on ignorance and bigotry.

That sounds like chickening out! It would be like Paul saying, “I am not going to preach the gospel because everywhere I go I get whipped, spat upon, beaten, tormented—and eventually killed!” Well, he didn’t say that. This is what he said:

2 Corinthians 4:

8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

2 Corinthians 11:

23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

And finally:

2 Timothy 4:

6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

If Paul had followed your example, he wouldn’t have done much preaching of the gospel!

I posted in this thread to point out my stance on why people shouldn’t have to defend their faith against others. Who cares? Their human, they’ll be dead probably within 100 years and never be seen on this Earth again.

Well, that is your stance. Maybe your religion doesn’t require more. Maybe it doesn’t deserve more! If your religion doesn’t deserve preaching or defending, or even sacrificing one’s life for; it doesn’t mean that no other religion does. In fact, I would go so far as to say that a religion that isn’t worth dying for, isn’t worth living for! If your religion for you is not worth fighting for, or even dying for, then my advice to you would be to look for a different one.

 

[StormSurfer]

That sounds like chickening out! It would be like Paul saying, “I am not going to preach the gospel because everywhere I go I get whipped, spat upon, beaten, tormented—and eventually killed!” Well, he didn’t say that. This is what he said:

2 Corinthians 4:

8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

2 Corinthians 11:

23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

And finally:

2 Timothy 4:

6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

If Paul had followed your example, he wouldn’t have done much preaching of the gospel!

Well, that is your stance. Maybe your religion doesn’t require more. Maybe it doesn’t deserve more! If your religion doesn’t deserve preaching or defending, or even sacrificing one’s life for; it doesn’t mean that no other religion does. In fact, I would go so far as to say that a religion that isn’t worth dying for, isn’t worth living for! If your religion for you is not worth fighting for, or even dying for, then my advice to you would be to look for a different one.

It takes a true man to bash someone else’s religion. I guess I’ll be the bigger man and walk away from you, but hey, sure, I’m chickening out, or wait, maybe, just maybe I would prefer to not have a bunch of people attack me because I’m different? Cya later, good luck with thinking your lovely church is superior to my beliefs, cause in the end, won’t do you any good to believe your superior to others, except maybe you might not get to go to that big place in the above, you might end up with me in the below.