Defending the Catholic Faith

[benedictus2]

The paradox which Reformed Christians face is the same one that Catholic theologians face.

True. How to reconcile grace and free will.

I think if you study the different allowable views in the origin of evil by Catholic theologians, you would find that their beliefs are probably closer to me than your own personal view.

But the view of different Cathollic theologians is not necessarily the view of the Catholic Church. In the end, the theologian’s view still needs to pass by Magisterial teaching.

All I ask is to honestly represent what Reformed Christians actually believe on the subject. Here’s help to understand where I am coming from:

All I ask is you consider what I said about extending your conclusions further. Because you will find that the premise you hold to (that is absence of free will) makes God an evil God. You end up with a God who creates man for the sole purpose of persecuting them for all eternity.

Are you comfortable with such a God?

Does square with the God who sol loved the WORLD that He gave His only Son?

Here is the Preface to the Jerusalem Bible which I find most touching:

“The Bible is not a book but a library, joining together dozens of writings, history, stories, poetry and letters. Almost the only common factor is that they all speak to us of God, revealing his nature, his awesome sovereignty and his tender love.”

God is sovereign but God is also LOVE. You forgot to factor the latter into your equation.

 

[benedictus2]

I really sense that many Catholics do not see God to be completely sovereign which confuses me.

Quite wrong there. God is truly sovereign but He made us with free will. It was His Choice as Sovereign being to create us in this manner.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Quite wrong there. God is truly sovereign but He made us with free will. It was His Choice as Sovereign being to create us in this manner.

I think you should study Catholic Theology before you make such statments. Here’s a good start for you.

monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/augustinenewlife.html

**Augustine on the New Life in Christ
Dr. N.R. Needham **
CHAPTER 5.

THE NEW LIFE IN CHRIST

‘Can we possibly, without utter absurdity, maintain that there first existed in anyone the good virtue of a good will, to entitle him to the removal of his heart of stone? How can we say this, when all the time this heart of stone itself signifies precisely a will of the hardest kind, a will that is absolutely inflexible against God? For if a good will comes first, there is obviously no longer a heart of stone.’
Augustine, On Grace and Free Will, 29

‘For we are now speaking of the desire for goodness. If they want to say that this begins from ourselves and is then perfected by God, let them see how they can answer the apostle when he says, “Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God” (2 Cor. 3:5)’

Augustine, Against Two Letters of the Pelagians, 2:18

Please read the entire article in context by clicking on the link!

monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/augustinenewlife.html

 

[benedictus2]

No faith needs defending. You can defend it if you want too, but why would a religion based on the divinity of God, Jesus, and the Spirit, need human defending? In the end, no faith needs defending. You can “attack” my beliefs if you want, but I doubt I’d defend them. Why should I? Your not going to gain anything, your going to lose time you could have spend practicing your faith, or bettering yourself.

Defence of one’s faith is important unless you do not believe that your faith is important enough to share. Defending one’s faith is part of practicing one’s faith. One has to be able to explain why one has the Truth.

This is also because not all opinions are equal.

 

[benedictus2]

I think you should study Catholic Theology before you make such statments. Here’s a good start for you.

monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/augustinenewlife.html

Augustine on the New Life in Christ
**Dr. N.R. Needham **
CHAPTER 5.

THE NEW LIFE IN CHRIST

‘Can we possibly, without utter absurdity, maintain that there first existed in anyone the good virtue of a good will, to entitle him to the removal of his heart of stone? How can we say this, when all the time this heart of stone itself signifies precisely a will of the hardest kind, a will that is absolutely inflexible against God? For if a good will comes first, there is obviously no longer a heart of stone.’
Augustine, On Grace and Free Will, 29

‘For we are now speaking of the desire for goodness. If they want to say that this begins from ourselves and is then perfected by God, let them see how they can answer the apostle when he says, “Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God” (2 Cor. 3:5)’

Augustine, Against Two Letters of the Pelagians, 2:18

Please read the entire article in context by clicking on the link!

monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/augustinenewlife.html

Quite wrong. If I want to study Catholic theology I will go to a Catholic Website.

Monergism is a protestant website so it is quite ill-equipped to explain what we Catholics believe. Simply quoting St Augustine does not quite do it since Protestants are quite adept at mis-representing what Augustine said.

Take you for example, look at your by line on the quote of Pope Benedict. You very conveniently truncated what Pope Benedict said and any one looking at that will come to the most erroneous conclusion. That to me signifiies ill intent because you easily fit in the rest of the quote but you have not. There is a very subtle aim to deceive.

 

[raqrodriguez]

it’s often hard to tell the difference between honest questions and trolling.

If yours is the former, then why ignore what someone (the ca tract writers) went to great lengths to prepare for you?

Things get heated in arguments, internet or otherwise. It’s of no help to quote somebody’s (possibly angry) quote with no context and ask for opinions on that quote.

Every one of us has a flawed and imperfect understanding of christ and the gospel. A literal reading of st. Paul would thus send us all to hell in a handbasket. But paul isn’t really condemning those who misunderstand. He’s condemning those who would seek to change the gospel and bend it to their own interests. Have you done that? I certainly don’t know, and it isn’t my job to find out. That’s god’s job.

What i do know is that if you subscribe to one of the theological novelties invented in the last 500 years, then you misunderstand at least part of christianity. That’s ok, i’m sure i misunderstand quite a bit of it too. After all, i’m not dead yet. We both need to invest the time we have here on earth in getting to know jesus better and choosing to allow him to conform us to him.

So the question really becomes: “at what level of erroneous belief does a person cease to be a christian, but instead becomes a believer in a difference gospel?” right?
The only accurate answer would have to be… It depends!

wow i loved this reply!!! Bravo!

 

[raqrodriguez]

we are saved by the grace of God.
God has given us the Church , which is the “bride of Christ” to lead us and teach us in the faith, so that we may hear the word.
God instituted the Church so that the faithful should have guidence.

those who are saved are those who hear the word and believe. and who do the will of God

the most important part of this is , of course, believing that Jesus Christ is Lord, the only begotten son of God. He tells us that the will of God is to Preach HIS Gospel, to follow the teachings as revealed through the Apostles, etc. (which includes a church. the bride of Christ)

the central tenets of the faith are written in the Apostles Creed. (born of the Virgin Mary, etc)

Protestants, historically,
have chosen to drop books from the Bible that make them uncomfortable… (including books that include statements about Purgatory) this is one of the most notable things that makes us suspect a false Gospel in many protestant churches The King James Bible was specifically (and by direct instruction) re translated to make it fit Protestant ideas.

they have chosen to break away form the Vicar of Christ… Christs appointed successor to the Apostle Peter. who is charged to “feed my sheep” and Shephard the flock…
Losing most of the Apostolic Succession in the same breath…

many of them have stopped celebrating the Sacrifice of the Eucharist… which was instituted by Christ himself… and many of those that still do make some observance of it no longer believe that it is truly Christ present with us.

on minor points? (or more minor)
Defamed, and lost respect for His (and our ) Mother Mary
promulgated or at least ignored murder/abortion
and more.

WE are the flock. We should heed our Shepard until the Lord returns.

and you are being less than clear about what the heck you want. and why you have refused several very excellent references.

AMEN!

 

[benedictus2]

Please let me help my separate brethrens, step brothers, or 1/2 brothers, and I will help you understand the gospel according to the Scriptures. Now, if the gospel according to the Scriptures is not the Catholic Gospel, then someone is believing and proclaiming a different gospel.

BUT, the Gospel of the Scripture IS the Catholic Gospel for the simple reason that the Catholic Church was the Church that Christ used to write the Gospel.

Now, the protestants on the other hand came way after (1500 years after ) the Gospels were written and they are trying to understand the Gospel that the Church wrote with the Inspiration of the Holy Sprit.

But since they are trying to interpret it detached from the Catholic Church, then how can they truly understand that which is essentially a Catholic library of Books?

It would be like the long lost great, great, great, great grand daughter of a son who left the family years ago trying to make sense of the book that patriarchs of the family wrote long before their time. Without the aid of those who remained in the family, they have no hope of fully comprehending what has been written.

This is the reason why a lot of protestant converts credit the writings of the Church Fathers for their reason for converting.

 

[2nd_Adam]

BUT, the Gospel of the Scripture IS the Catholic Gospel for the simple reason that the Catholic Church was the Church that Christ used to write the Gospel.

Now, the protestants on the other hand came way after (1500 years after ) the Gospels were written and they are trying to understand the Gospel that the Church wrote with the Inspiration of the Holy Sprit.

But since they are trying to interpret it detached from the Catholic Church, then how can they truly understand that which is essentially a Catholic library of Books?

It would be like the long lost great, great, great, great grand daughter of a son who left the family years ago trying to make sense of the book that patriarchs of the family wrote long before their time. Without the aid of those who remained in the family, they have no hope of fully comprehending what has been written.

This is the reason why a lot of protestant converts credit the writings of the Church Fathers for their reason for converting.

Please proclaim the Catholic gospel to me if you can.

 

[bookgirl32]

Please proclaim the Catholic gospel to me if you can.

You can go to any Bible and read the books yourself. They’re called Matthew, Mark, Luke and John .

 

[guanophore]

Please proclaim the Catholic gospel to me if you can.

You can go to any Bible and read the books yourself. They’re called Matthew, Mark, Luke and John .

2nd, this is another good example of the same phenomena that has happened several times now. You appear to be looking for a Readers’ Digest (condensed) version of the saving message of Christ. However, when you ask Catholics about the Gospel, they will give you a response about the four books of the NT that are called by the names “Gospel”. Excerpts are read from them daily at Mass.

Catholics consider that the whole message of Christ is the “good news”, and since we don’t consider salvation to be something that occurs at one point in time, for all time, we don’t distill the message to condensed form. When Jesus gave the great commission, He instructed the Apostles to “teach them all that I have commanded”. We look upon the Gospel as a unified whole, indivisible.

 

[zerinus]

It takes a true man to bash someone else’s religion. I guess I’ll be the bigger man and walk away from you, but hey, sure, I’m chickening out, or wait, maybe, just maybe I would prefer to not have a bunch of people attack me because I’m different? Cya later, good luck with thinking your lovely church is superior to my beliefs, cause in the end, won’t do you any good to believe your superior to others, except maybe you might not get to go to that big place in the above, you might end up with me in the below.

You seem to have a problem. I have nothing against your religion. I was not arguing against your religion. I expect everybody’s religion, especially those that are worth defending and dying for, as the Apostles did for theirs. I was merely responding to your incorrect advice that one should not defend one’s religion. That may be true of your religion, but not necessarily of every other religion. You decide what kind of religion you want to join; and I respect your choice. But it does not follow that what is good advice for your religion is good advice for my religion. Your mistake was in thinking that what is good for your religion is good for my religion. I was merely pointing out that that was not the case. I was not arguing against your relilgion.

 

[VARC]

No faith needs defending. You can defend it if you want too, but why would a religion based on the divinity of God, Jesus, and the Spirit, need human defending? In the end, no faith needs defending. You can “attack” my beliefs if you want, but I doubt I’d defend them. Why should I? Your not going to gain anything, your going to lose time you could have spend practicing your faith, or bettering yourself.

I can almost sympathize with your point of view. God’s a big boy. He doesn’t need little ole me to fight His battles for Him. It probably looks kind of funny for someone so insignificant and minuscule to rush to the defense of someone so mighty and powerful. It doesn’t even work that way on Earth. If my wife stood up and defended my honor I would feel somewhat emasculated. :twocents:

 

[zerinus]

Please proclaim the Catholic gospel to me if you can.

There is no such thing as the “Catholic gospel”. It is either the gospel of Jesus Christ or it isn’t. Here is how the Book of Mormon and other LDS scriptures answer that question:

3 Nephi 27:

13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.
14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—
15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.
16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.
17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.
18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.
19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.
20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;
22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day.

D&C 33:

11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
12 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;
13 And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.
14 And ye shall remember the church articles and covenants to keep them.

D&C 39:

5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me.
6 And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.

I don’t know if the Catholics agree with that definition of the gospel or not. If they do, then your question has been answered. If they don’t, then here is their chance (and yours) to explain why.

 

[benedictus2]

Please proclaim the Catholic gospel to me if you can.

I did - a few posts before. But to answer. Simply pick up a Catholic Bible

 

[benedictus2]

2nd, this is another good example of the same phenomena that has happened several times now. You appear to be looking for a Readers’ Digest (condensed) version of the saving message of Christ.

Perhaps 2nd can tell me which edition of the Reader’s Digest to make my reading easier

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd, this is another good example of the same phenomena that has happened several times now. You appear to be looking for a Readers’ Digest (condensed) version of the saving message of Christ. However, when you ask Catholics about the Gospel, they will give you a response about the four books of the NT that are called by the names “Gospel”. Excerpts are read from them daily at Mass.

Catholics consider that the whole message of Christ is the “good news”, and since we don’t consider salvation to be something that occurs at one point in time, for all time, we don’t distill the message to condensed form. When Jesus gave the great commission, He instructed the Apostles to “teach them all that I have commanded”. We look upon the Gospel as a unified whole, indivisible.

The gospel was preached by the Apostle to people. It is not a condensed version,but it is the great news of God which is proclaimed. I guess Catholic are not considered to be evangelical by the definition of the word of bringing the good news to sinners…

 

[2nd_Adam]

Perhaps 2nd can tell me which edition of the Reader’s Digest to make my reading easier

You guys really need to read the Bible.

…Faith is the root, the necessary beginning. Hope is the stem, the energy that makes the plant grow. Love is the fruit, the flower, the visible product, the bottom line. The plant of our new life in Christ is one; the life of God comes into us by faith, through us by hope, and out of us by the works of love. That is clearly the biblical view, and when Protestants and Catholics who know and believe the Bible discuss the issue sincerely, it is amazing how quickly and easily they come to understand and agree with each other on this, the fundamental divisive issue. Try it some time with your Protestant friend.

But many Catholics to this day have not learned the Catholic and biblical doctrine. They think we are saved by good intentions or being nice or sincere or trying a little harder or doing a sufficient number of good deeds. Over the past twenty-five years I have asked hundreds of Catholic college students the question: If you should die tonight and God asks you why he should let you into heaven, what would you answer? The vast majority of them simply do not know the right answer to this, the most important of all questions, the very essence of Christianity. They usually do not even mention Jesus!

Until we Catholics know the foundation, Protestants are not going to listen to us when we try to teach them about the upper stories of the building… PETER KREEFT (see second link).

 

[Tantum_ergo]

If it wouldn’t be too much trouble, it would be interesting if Adam started a thread called, “The Protestant gospel that I profess”.

He could then give a pithy few paragraphs (probably a nice number like 6 or so) which ‘encompass’ the message, kind of like the “Tulip” format.

Then when we start asking about a particular Scriptural passage (or indeed, the 'lack’of a Scriptural passage, such as the lack of anything in Scripture about how the Jewish Sabbath would be turned into the Christian Sunday, or why people charge interest, etc.) then he could either ignore them because they are not ‘pertinent to the gospel message’ or attempt to turn the subject into a bash against Catholics (by preference) but with faint ‘damns’ against any fellow Protestant if said subject did not ‘jibe’ with his 'the gospel of 2nd Adam".

Have to admit that the picture of the “Readers Digest Condensed version of Catholicism” is still making me laugh. Especially since I seem to recall that back somewhere in the 70s or 80s they actually came out with a “reader’s Digest Condensed Bible”. . . Aha, yes, it was 1982.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

2nd Adam. . .might I ask, with due deference and respect, that you kindly STOP telling us bilge that you claim that we believe???

No, I do not think we are saved by good intentions. No Catholic of my acquaintance thinks it either.

So you have asked 'hundreds of Catholics" questions about their faith and they don’t answer to YOUR satisfaction?

Well, until you are proven to be JESUS CHRIST, I don’t think that any of us have to meet your personal requirements that you claim to be His.