Defending the Catholic Faith

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No, the Deck would not be slanted. What you are doing is basing your faith on St. Paul, not on St. Paul’s understanding of Jesus, which was based on Jesus himself
All of Scripture is God breathed. The OT is pointing to Jesus Christ Himself according to Jesus Himself. Does this mean you want to have a friendly card game with your Protestant sibling? The deck is the entire Scriptures. But the deck of cards is stacked for the Protestant who hold to sola scriptura in our poker game of truth. We can use either cannon too? You can pick your own sword in our friendly sword fight. :signofcross::knight1::knight2::hug1:
 
this is a confusing statement :confused:.

If your faith is in Jesus Christ and the in errancy of scripture then having faith in St. Paul’s words documented in scripture IS based on Jesus Himself.
The problem with 2nd, and others like him, is that they define their faith ONLY by the words of St. Paul, which may, on the surface, conflict with those of Jesus. The Catholic approach is to read the epistles from the position of the Gospels and understand them as such.

For example, what is required to get to heaven? According to some, faith in Jesus Christ is all. However, according to Jesus, baptism and good works are a part of it as well. Good works seem to be a problem according to Paul.

Basically, and 2nd must know this on some level, Protestantism is a misreading of the Letters of Paul.

Why did Luther want to leave out the Letter of James? Why do some dislike Second Peter? Why is the passage from Matthew that Zerinus posted so problematic to so many Protestants?
 
The problem with 2nd, and others like him, is that they define their faith ONLY by the words of St. Paul, which may, on the surface, conflict with those of Jesus. The Catholic approach is to read the epistles from the position of the Gospels and understand them as such.

For example, what is required to get to heaven? According to some, faith in Jesus Christ is all. However, according to Jesus, baptism and good works are a part of it as well. Good works seem to be a problem according to Paul.

Basically, and 2nd must know this on some level, Protestantism is a misreading of the Letters of Paul.

Why did Luther want to leave out the Letter of James? Why do some dislike Second Peter? Why is the passage from Matthew that Zerinus posted so problematic to so many Protestants?
The most Calvinistic book in the bible is the gospel of John. And John chapter 6 and James chapter 2 are two of my favorite chapters in the Bible. :signofcross::knight1::knight2:

John 6

22 On the next day the crowd that remained on the other side of the sea saw that there had been only one boat there, and that Jesus had not entered the boat with his disciples, but that his disciples had gone away alone. 23 Other boats from Tiberias came near the place where they had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. 24 So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor his disciples, they themselves got into the boats and went to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.

25 When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you come here?” 26 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. 27 Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” 30 So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread [3] the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus [4] said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.
 
The most Calvinistic book in the bible is the gospel of John. And John chapter 6 and James chapter 2 are two of my favorite chapters in the Bible. :signofcross::knight1::knight2:

John 6

22 On the next day the crowd that remained on the other side of the sea saw that there had been only one boat there, and that Jesus had not entered the boat with his disciples, but that his disciples had gone away alone. 23 Other boats from Tiberias came near the place where they had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. 24 So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor his disciples, they themselves got into the boats and went to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.

25 When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you come here?” 26 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. 27 Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” 30 So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread [3] the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus [4] said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.
Oh my. The most CATHOLIC Book is John and the passage you quote is the most CATHOLIC. For the sake of discussion, why do you think John is Calvinistic?
 
Oh my. The most CATHOLIC Book is John and the passage you quote is the most CATHOLIC. For the sake of discussion, why do you think John is Calvinistic?
Please read John chapter 6 again and try to see what I see. Did you want to start that poker game of truth?
 
The problem with 2nd, and others like him, is that they define their faith ONLY by the words of St. Paul, which may, on the surface, conflict with those of Jesus. The Catholic approach is to read the epistles from the position of the Gospels and understand them as such.

For example, what is required to get to heaven? According to some, faith in Jesus Christ is all. However, according to Jesus, baptism and good works are a part of it as well. Good works seem to be a problem according to Paul.

Basically, and 2nd must know this on some level, Protestantism is a misreading of the Letters of Paul.

Why did Luther want to leave out the Letter of James? Why do some dislike Second Peter? Why is the passage from Matthew that Zerinus posted so problematic to so many Protestants?
I don’t think Good works seemed to be a problem to Paul, only when you became justified by them. James and Paul are in agreement in that, when you have justifying faith that is from God (not the devilish faith the the demons have and yet tremble), then good works are an evidence of love for God.

The works in and of them self are not what justifies but rather a necessary branch that grows from the tree of love for God.

Like Abraham, justified of His faith, yet his actions proved His faith to be real, unlike the one’s who claim to know Jesus yet walk in darkness.

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
 
I don’t think Good works seemed to be a problem to Paul, only when you became justified by them. James and Paul are in agreement in that, when you have justifying faith that is from God (not the devilish faith the the demons have and yet tremble), then good works are an evidence of love for God.

The works in and of them self are not what justifies but rather a necessary branch that grows from the tree of love for God.

Like Abraham, justified of His faith, yet his actions proved His faith to be real, unlike the one’s who claim to know Jesus yet walk in darkness.

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
All of that is correct, but that is not how so many people approach it.

Perhaps my position is formed from discussing with Muslims, but if you cannot defend 100% of your faith using just Jesus, there are issues.
 
James chapter 2, Romans 8, and the Apostle John are all in harmony in regards to true faith which saves and transforms a sinner to the image of Christ:

1 John 3:10

By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
 
Please read John chapter 6 again and try to see what I see. Did you want to start that poker game of truth?
What I see is the Real Presence in the Eucharist and the promise of Jesus to give us his flesh to eat and blood to drink.
 
All of that is correct, but that is not how so many people approach it.

Perhaps my position is formed from discussing with Muslims, but if you cannot defend 100% of your faith using just Jesus, there are issues.
You cannot limit Scripture revelation to only to the four gospel accounts. Please look at my first link on my signature by Pope Benedict. Heck, the entire OT starting with Genesis 3 is pointing to Jesus Christ!
 
You cannot limit Scripture revelation to only to the four gospel accounts. Please look at my first link on my signature by Pope Benedict. Heck, the entire OT starting with Genesis 3 is pointing to Jesus Christ!
Go quote Paul to a Muslim and tell me the response.

All of Christianity is contained within the Four Gospels. All of the OT prepares the case for Christ and the rest of the New explains better how to live and understand.
 
Go quote Paul to a Muslim and tell me the response.

All of Christianity is contained within the Four Gospels. All of the OT prepares the case for Christ and the rest of the New explains better how to live and understand.
I’m a Calvinist remember. I just proclaim the gospel in love to all who will listen, and let God the Holy Spirit convert whom He wills. The elect Muslim and the elect Mormon will be able to see the true Jesus Christ by the enabling work of God, and leave Islam and leave Mormonism for Christianity. Now does God lead new converts to Catholic, Protestant, Anglicans, Orthodox communites? Sure!

Apologetics is overrated… and it is only by the Spirit of God that pepope are enabled to believe in an effectual way. Do I believe that our Mormon friend zerinus is an elect of God? Well, proclaim the gospel to him and let’s find out?
 
Apologetics is overrated… and it is only by the Spirit of God that pepope are enabled to believe in an effectual way. Do I believe that our Mormon friend zerinus is an elect of God? Well, proclaim the gospel to him and let’s find out?
LOL! Your “gospel” is “another gospel”. Mormons have the genuine article.
 
LOL… okay how about the Catholic gospel, is that a true gospel or a false gospel?
I don’t know of an accurate theological definition of the Catholic gospel; but I am willing to bet that it will come a lot closer to the Mormon definition than the Calvinist one.
 
Is this how you view the gospel–we are children wrath brought upon by Adam’s freely chosen sin and then Christ, punished fully by the Father for our sins–we saved by accepting this sacrifice and legally justified and adopted as children of God?
 
Is this how you view the gospel–we are children wrath brought upon by Adam’s freely chosen sin and then Christ, punished fully by the Father for our sins–we saved by accepting this sacrifice and legally justified and adopted as children of God?
I think so, the gospel in a nutshell could be adoption through propitation, or 2 Cor 5:21? God’s amazing love is manifested through the doctrines of propitation and adoption, to the praise of His glorious grace! I’m not sure if I agree with the word 'accept" in your statement above.
 
I think so, the gospel in a nutshell could be adoption through propitation, or 2 Cor 5:21? God’s amazing love is manifested through the doctrines of propitation and adoption, to the praise of His glorious grace! I’m not sure if I agree with the word 'accept" in your statement above.
All right–replace with “irresistable grace” instead of accept since that implies a choice.

From what I’ve seen with this thread, you asked in OP how your gospel differed from the Catholic one and now I’ve responded with your definition of the gospel, how can you expect Catholic parrot forensic justification, total depravity, etc. when Catholics believe in free will, infused grace, etc. as such and then exhort us to preach the “gospel”?

It would seem the deck was stacked from the OP.

However, this begs yet another question…
 
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