Defending the Holy Spirit, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement

[guanophore]

So because they’re more recent they automatically over rule what the other popes have said and are right, that’s not a very good understanding of catholic theology.

One has to wonder about the understanding of Catholic Theology a person has who does not recognzie or submit to the authority of the successor of Peter.

The sovereign pontiff is the most fruitful source of canon law; he can abrogate the laws made by his predecessors or by Ecumenical councils; he can legislate for the whole church or for a part thereof, a country or a given body of individuals; if he is morally bound to take advice and to follow the dictates of prudence, he is not legally obliged to obtain the consent of any other person or persons, or to observe any particular form; his power is limited only by Divine law, natural and positive, dogmatic and moral. (Boniface VIII. c. i, “De Constit.” in VI)

Any Christian, most especially a Christian who claims to be Catholic, yet considers the speeches of the Pope to contain “no authority” is concerning.

It is also curious that all the Charismatics on this thread acknowledge the instructions of the Pope on these matters, and the non-Charismatic does not!

 

[guanophore]

‘Baptism of the Holy Spirit’ could be heretical in Catholicism. What are you getting at ‘services’ where this occurs, that you don’t get at your Catholic Baptism or Confirmation?

This is a very good point. However, it is not the experience of being prayed for and the effects that are “heretical”. Their understanding of them is sometimes based, as jmj has pointed out, heterodox ideas. I think the explanation of what happens at these services is best described by the document from the Congregation of the Docrtine of the Faith.

The constant inference is: there's something missing in traditional Catholicism from 70AD to 1970 and this Gnostic-style seeking after 'experiences' is going to supply it.

Can you give a source fo an “inference” of this kind? I am not familiar with any.

Can you also explain “Gnostic-Style seeking”? Does this passage describe “Gnostic Style Seeking” the way you are using this term.

On Saturday a member of the Chapel Hill Prayer Group came to speak on Acts, chapter 2. All we were told was that she was a Protestant friend of our professors. Although her presentation was very simple, it was filled with spiritual power. She spoke about surrendering to Jesus as Lord and Master. She described the Holy Spirit as a Person who empowered her daily. Here was someone who really seemed to know Jesus intimately and personally! She knew the power of the Holy Spirit like the Apostles did. I knew I wanted what she had and I wrote in my notes, “Jesus, be real for me.”

I can certainly testify that something was missing in my personal life. I was not able to walk in the power of the faith I read about in the book of Acts.

In the Renewal (what a presumptuous term, on the back of such trivial effects),

I don’t think those of us whose lives have been transformed by learning how to walk closer with God would consider the effects “trivial”. Not everyone was affected immediatly by historic Monastic Reforms, either, but that did not make them “trivial”.

it’s purported that the Third Person of the Trinity, God in fact, is acting upon people in a showy and trivial way.

I am sure it may be perceived this way by some, but for the persons whose lives have been transformed by the renewing of their minds find this experience deep and meaningful. The HS is not “showy”, or “trivial”, so it stands to reason that phenomenon like this are not grounded in Him.

If He truly was in this movement, we would hear some clear, powerful and affecting teachings and see marvellous miracles, as exhibited by the Apostles. Not people whipping themselves up into ecstacy, sentiment and people gibbering.

Yes, I think we can all agree that people whipping themselves up into ecstacy, sentiment, and gibbering are outside the purposes of God. These expressions characterize the abuses of the Holy Spirit’s Gifts among our separated brethren. The Catholic Charismatic Renewal does not promote or encourage these abuses.

This is like what is happening at Medjugorje: the thrust here is that Church is wrong and the locals are right...

The effects are trivial and divisive.

Not sure what “movement” you are tracking here. The HS always working toward unity.

It's also ludicrous to come into this subforum and say this is traditional, as it is to say CITH or whatever your favourite novelty, is traditional, when traditionalists understand that thing to mean the opposite.

I see your point. For Charismatics, “Tradition” begins with the New Testament Church, not in the Middle Ages. There fore, what we seen in the NT is part of Sacred Tradition.

But I guess if you say it long enough and loud enough, some people might believe you, until, like the Pro Multis controversy, the Barque of Peter eventually corrects its course and sails serenely on.

I don’t think so.

 

[vardaquinn]

‘Baptism of the Holy Spirit’ could be heretical in Catholicism. What are you getting at ‘services’ where this occurs, that you don’t get at your Catholic Baptism or Confirmation?

It is a less of getting something, as experiencing what you’ve already been given through baptism and confirmation. I agree, a misunderstanding of it could lead to heresy.

The constant inference is: there’s something missing in traditional Catholicism from 70AD to 1970 and this Gnostic-style seeking after ‘experiences’ is going to supply it.

It is not that there was something missing. If the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, she has everything she needs already. She has all Her body parts. But it’s one thing to have everything, it’s another thing to use it. It’s one thing to have a nose, it’s another thing to put it to the grindstone. I don’t think the Gnostic reference holds up at all to this… It’s quite the opposite, if anything.

In the Renewal (what a presumptuous term, on the back of such trivial effects), it’s purported that the Third Person of the Trinity, God in fact, is acting upon people in a showy and trivial way. If He truly was in this movement, we would hear some clear, powerful and affecting teachings and see marvellous miracles, as exhibited by the Apostles. Not people whipping themselves up into ecstacy, sentiment and people gibbering.

I am hearing a lot of powerful and affecting teachings, and seeing and hearing of marvelous miracles, as exhibited by the Apostles. I am also seeing people being moved to ecstatic experiences, which are not necessarily a bad thing. I am also seeing people speaking in tongues, which is not “gibbering”. I guess it depends where you go. The Renewal is immature in some areas, and more mature in others.

He may be acting in trivial ways, but He is certainly also acting in tremendous ways. He’s really on the move, because people want to let Him move. Hearts are being claimed for Christ in a powerful way through the Renewal, perhaps in a way unlike anything else at large in Catholicism today. It is the fastest growing movement in the history of Christendom. I don’t see this as trivial at all.

This is like what is happening at Medjugorje: the thrust here is that Church is wrong and the locals are right; the Virgin Mary/Holy Spirit is speaking to us/acting on the participants all the time except, N.B., ‘She’ never says anything original and ‘He’ produces trivial, unoriginal phenomena; a mark, amongst many, of the Satanic origin of the phenomenon.

I don’t know enough about Medjugorje to say anything either way, but I don’t understand your argument here. Are the charismatics acting against the Church? Or is it, rather, the non-charismatics, those who turn away from the charismatic dimension of the faith which the Church proclaims is essential (along with the institutional dimension) to Her very nature?

I am not sure if you were speaking of Medjugorje here, or the CCR. But if the latter, I’d hardly call a movement that has so tremendously led people in a renewed awareness of the presence and power of the Holy Spirit, that has dramatically claimed lives for Christ, as a “satanic phenomena”.

The effects are trivial and divisive.

Bare assertion.

It’s also ludicrous to come into this subforum and say this is traditional, as it is to say CITH or whatever your favourite novelty, is traditional, when traditionalists understand that thing to mean the opposite

Then I am sorry to say that many traditionalists are not traditional. I perceive true traditionalism as living New Testament Christianity, following in the footsteps of the holy Apostles. If you want to be traditional, speak in tongues! That was technically the first thing the Catholic Church ever did. “And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak in different tongues as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim.” Acts 2:4 Why do you think it’s called a “renewal”? Because it’s bring back something from our tradition that has been forgotten and neglected.

But I guess if you say it long enough and loud enough, some people might believe you

Yes, like the Holy Fathers…

 

[Mike30]

Defending the Holy Spirit, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement

For 39 pages now this non sensical thread has shambled along,repeating ad nauseum the same points, the same views, the samequotes, etc, as are always brought up in these charismatic threads. For what it is worth, I posted the title of this thread and I think it clearly shows the mentality of the CCR. If you do not like or accept the movement then in some way you are rejecting and ignoring the Holy Spirit. The implication is that the two are linked linked and therefore those in the movement are more spiritually advanced than those poor benighted souls outside of the movement and have a closer relationship to God.

And I just don’t buy that. Please let this thread die.It is doing no good at all.

 

[vardaquinn]

For 39 pages now this non sensical thread has shambled along,repeating ad nauseum the same points, the same views, the samequotes, etc, as are always brought up in these charismatic threads. For what it is worth, I posted the title of this thread and I think it clearly shows the mentality of the CCR. If you do not like or accept the movement then in some way you are rejecting and ignoring the Holy Spirit. The implication is that the two are linked linked and therefore those in the movement are more spiritually advanced than those poor benighted souls outside of the movement and have a closer relationship to God.

And I just don’t buy that. Please let this thread die.It is doing no good at all.

Many of the points brought up by those opposed to the CCR are contrary to Church teaching, and do lead to a rejection and an ignorance of an essential role the Holy Spirit plays in the Church. Nobody in this thread has claimed that those in the movement are necessarily more spiritually advanced than those who are not. This thread may have become very repetitive, and it’s original title may be simply provocative on an argument, but I would not call the majority of the posts “non-sensical”. It brings up very important discussion, on an issue there is immense confusion on.

I believe this thread is doing good, and I’m sure other participants will agree from both sides of the divide.

 

[vardaquinn]

This was just recently released, from the Holy Father. youtube.com/watch?v=DihJ9S-nvrE&feature=relmfu

 

[TrueLight]

I just thought I’d mention that as I was being received into the Church this afternoon, , I was kneeling on some steps and suddenly my body started to shake. It started from the bottom and was slowly rising up my body. I said to myself “Truelight, get it together”.

Now I suppose if I gave in to it, who knows where I could have ended. Probably sprawled on the ground from falling down the steps.

 

[jmj1984]

I just thought I’d mention that as I was being received into the Church this afternoon, , I was kneeling on some steps and suddenly my body started to shake. It started from the bottom and was slowly rising up my body. I said to myself “Truelight, get it together”.

Now I suppose if I gave in to it, who knows where I could have ended. Probably sprawled on the ground from falling down the steps.

Happy you were received,

 

[ClayPots47]

I have to disagree with you here, Clay.

Just because a debate is heated, does not mean it’s nasty. Varda and JMJ are coming from two very different starting points. Guarna and I, in comparison, seem to occupy the position of “moderates on the left and right” relative to those two. Most of the posts have both argued the points cogently, certainly by the standards of an internet forum!

I have got a lot out of this. I never really thought it through before, but I am considering that Charismatics and Traditionalists are best understood vis a vis their position to the wider Church - what Anglicans would call Latitudinarian. Our respective thinking could be termed Para and Meta Catholic, as I suggested.

It has also got me thinking about the nature of grace, certainly a live issue by any fair measure. Unless of course one disagrees with giants like Calvin, Luther, Molina and the rest!

Ultimately all conviction is personal. At best, we happen to hold the same opinions as some others do. That’s not bad, however. I don’t know that the purpose of these threads is to convince or convert each other. It’s a chance to poke out of our shells a little. I mean, given my traditionalist inclinations, where am I likely to engage in extended discussion with Charismatic Catholics? Where are they likely to find someone who doesn’t think it’s right to eat anything after midnight?

I’m not asking anyone to change their spirituality or their beliefs, nor am I offering to change mine. I’m learning, and I am finding common ground.

540 some posts filled with scriptural reference, religious literature, lives of the saints, documents both recent and medieval! I give this thread an A plus.

Well, I never said it was nasty, I stated it was fruitless. There are several threads on this subject currently, and many, many more archived. They all end up in acrimonious debate, often at least one warning from a moderator, and at least one participant getting either suspended or banned ( I have seen 4 or 5 Traditionalists, and at least 1 Charismatic banned as a result if these acrimonious threads). They all end up getting focused on the charisms, with tongues being the topic du jour. There is not much of anything new, that hasn’t been already said in an existing or archived thread, ad nauseum. The same arguments are repeated.

Not all the Traditionalists are in agreement with each other (some have questioned why there should be a conflict, as they are both Traditionalists and Charismatics). The Charismatics aren’t in agreement either. I don’t agree with some of the debates that Charismatics in these threads are raising with Traditionalists, but rather than divert the thread and voice where I disagree, I prefer to focus on the Traditionalists that operate on the premise that the CCR is a heretical spirituality that comes from Satan, and therefore does not belong in the RCC. That is more dangerous than the minor disagreements I might have with what other Charismatics might say.

I’m not even sure why this thread is still in this forum, as recently the forum moderators made some changes as to what belongs in the Traditional Catholic forum, and what belongs in other forums; and it seemed that threads discussing the CCR were going to be relocated to a more appropriate forum (This thread probably belongs in Spirituality or maybe Apologetic). For once, I would like the detractors that inhabit these threads with arguments against the CCR to explain why they feel such a need to do this, and exactly what they hope to accomplish? From the air of superiority evident in the post of some, I would say they are on an ego trip. I’ve seen this same behavior on threads about COTT vs CITH and EMHC and kneeling vs standing when receiving HC; but the most vehement threads often tend to be the ones about the CCR with a focus on tongues (even though there are 8 more charisms listed by St Paul plus many others, many far more important than tongues; tongues is a hot button issue, so that’s where the focus ends up.

More power to you if you found something positive in this thread, I just see as the same ugliness I’ve seen before; with a few gems buried in the muck and mire. I just don’t understand the need to engage in endless debates when the RCC allows the CCR, CITH, EMHC and standing for HC; especially since no one has to accept or follow any of those. At the end of the day, Rome has spoken; and until/unless Rome changes her mind; the CCR, CITH, EMHC and standing for HC are allowed.

 

[ClayPots47]

Originally Posted by vardaquinn
I would ultimately probably agree with you though, the Holy Spirit can work the charisms based on the needs of a community - even if the person is absolutely unaware of it. I’m willing to bet most, if not all, of the people on this thread have used the charisms in some way or another and probably without their knowledge.

An unsubstantiated assumption and then an absurdity. A rather bad tempered response I must say. Your entire argument revolves around ad hominem attacks, lies and an inability to accept facts. This is a lie, a lie you keep repeating so you cannot claim to be in good faith as I have refuted it numerous times. This must have been the sixth time you’ve repeated this lie. It seems you are suffering from a full on denial of reality. (Recognize the jmj-isms?)

 

[ClayPots47]

I found it, thanks.

newadvent.org/cathen/03588e.htm

My message was for jmj, who did not include the link. It is a violation of the forum rules to quote this without the reference.

You were asking about the one about Father Raniero Cantalamessa’s talk on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Anywhoo, I did find it. Baptism in the Holy Spirit
by Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, OFMCap

 

[ClayPots47]

One has to wonder about the understanding of Catholic Theology a person has who does not recognzie or submit to the authority of the successor of Peter.

The sovereign pontiff is the most fruitful source of canon law; he can abrogate the laws made by his predecessors or by Ecumenical councils; he can legislate for the whole church or for a part thereof, a country or a given body of individuals; if he is morally bound to take advice and to follow the dictates of prudence, he is not legally obliged to obtain the consent of any other person or persons, or to observe any particular form; his power is limited only by Divine law, natural and positive, dogmatic and moral. (Boniface VIII. c. i, “De Constit.” in VI)

Any Christian, most especially a Christian who claims to be Catholic, yet considers the speeches of the Pope to contain “no authority” is concerning.

It is also curious that all the Charismatics on this thread acknowledge the instructions of the Pope on these matters, and the non-Charismatic does not!

I’m having a deja vu moment! Didn’t I just quote this in post #569? Hehehe… I have forum member JReducation to thank for that. He used it with another Trad arguing that the teaching of Trent that only priests could touch the Eucharist and therefore distribute HC, could not be changed by any other popes. Brother JR and I told him he was incorrect, and Brother JR explained how that teaching was changed and by what authority. In his excellent reply was that quote. I thought it apropos to this thread and this argument, as you did too.

 

[guanophore]

"vardaquinn:

I would ultimately probably agree with you though, the Holy Spirit can work the charisms based on the needs of a community - even if the person is absolutely unaware of it. I’m willing to bet most, if not all, of the people on this thread have used the charisms in some way or another and probably without their knowledge.

An unsubstantiated assumption and then an absurdity.

It is not an unsubstantiated assumption, nor is it absurd. The scriptures are clear that the HS gives everyone gifts according to His will, and they are for the benefit of the community. Therefore, anyone who is serving in the Church in any capacity is using their charism, whether they recognize it, or not.

And it is perfectly possible that a person can have charism function through them and not know it. A person can pray for another, who may then experience a miracle in their lives or a healing, but this information may never get back to the person who prayed.

Acts 19:11-12

11 And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.

Paul may never have known the destination of his clothing, or the effects of it upon others. This is the HS working through Paul.

A rather bad tempered response I must say. Your entire argument revolves around ad hominem attacks, lies and an inability to accept facts. This is a lie, a lie you keep repeating so you cannot claim to be in good faith as I have refuted it numerous times. This must have been the sixth time you've repeated this lie. It seems you are suffering from a full on denial of reality. (Recognize the jmj-isms?)  :rolleyes:

jmj claims to be able to read the hearts of others jmj has never met. This is extraordinary, don’t you think? Contrary to their own testimony, jmj believes they were seeking after gifts and sensationalisms, rather than a deeper walk with God. Jmj knows more even than the person attending the event! For example:

She spoke about surrendering to Jesus as Lord and Master. She described the Holy Spirit as a Person who empowered her daily. Here was someone who really seemed to know Jesus intimately and personally! She knew the power of the Holy Spirit like the Apostles did. I knew I wanted what she had and I wrote in my notes, “Jesus, be real for me.”

Jmj knows that this woman was really not seeking an empowered Christian life, or to know Jesus personally and intimately, or for Jesus to be "real "in her life. On the contrary, it has apparently been supernaturally revealed by God to jmj that this woman was really just “obsessed with gifts”. So, jmj knows the thoughts of her heart better than she does. Maybe even bilocation has occured, so that jmj could read the journal itself, and therefor has seen that this note “Jesus, be real for me” was crossed out, and replaced with “Jesus, I just want gifts, not you”.

 

[guanophore]

I’m having a deja vu moment! Didn’t I just quote this in post #569? Hehehe… I have forum member JReducation to thank for that. He used it with another Trad arguing that the teaching of Trent that only priests could touch the Eucharist and therefore distribute HC, could not be changed by any other popes. Brother JR and I told him he was incorrect, and Brother JR explained how that teaching was changed and by what authority. In his excellent reply was that quote. I thought it apropos to this thread and this argument, as you did too.

One of the things I find most disconcerting on this thread is the outright rejection of the ordinary Magesterium of the Church instruction on the Charismatic Renewal, and the continued assertion that the pastoral guidance of the Pope and those he has appointed have “no authority”.

 

[guanophore]

Defending the Holy Spirit, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement

For 39 pages now this non sensical thread has shambled along,repeating ad nauseum the same points, the same views, the samequotes, etc, as are always brought up in these charismatic threads. For what it is worth, I posted the title of this thread and I think it clearly shows the mentality of the CCR. If you do not like or accept the movement then in some way you are rejecting and ignoring the Holy Spirit. The implication is that the two are linked linked and therefore those in the movement are more spiritually advanced than those poor benighted souls outside of the movement and have a closer relationship to God.

And I just don’t buy that. Please let this thread die.It is doing no good at all.

What are you saying? You are the one who started the thread, and chose the title?!

If you already knew it was going to be “non sensical, shampeld, and repeating ad nauseum”, why did you start it?

It is false that it is “the mentality of the CCR that if you are on involved you are rejecting or ignoring the Holy Spirit”. In fact, you cannot produce any document published by, in, or for the Catholic Charismatic Renewal that indicates this because IT IS NOT TRUE!

It is true that there are many of our separated brethren who have embraced this heretical viewpoint, as they have embraced other heresies such as Sola Scriptura. But it is not right to judge a work of God by those who depart from it. That is like saying that the TEaching of Jesus is invalid, because Judas did not believe HIm, or follow Him.

 

[ClayPots47]

It is not an unsubstantiated assumption, nor is it absurd. The scriptures are clear that the HS gives everyone gifts according to His will, and they are for the benefit of the community. Therefore, anyone who is serving in the Church in any capacity is using their charism, whether they recognize it, or not.

And it is perfectly possible that a person can have charism function through them and not know it. A person can pray for another, who may then experience a miracle in their lives or a healing, but this information may never get back to the person who prayed.

Acts 19:11-12

11 And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.

Paul may never have known the destination of his clothing, or the effects of it upon others. This is the HS working through Paul.

Um, that quote by me “An unsubstantiated assumption and then an absurdity”, was not directed at vardaquinn. It was a c&p of something jmj wrote, in response to your post where you wrote sarcastically regarding jmj; "I think this is true. Look, we have learned that jmj has the gift of discernment, and has the ability like Padre Pio to see into the hearts of those in the Renewal. That is how it was revealed that those people were not seeking a deeper life in the Spirit, but just “obsessing over gifts” and “wanting what Protestants had”. " See post #585.

Not sure how you missed that or or why you separated that one sentence from the rest of my reply to you. My entire reply was was intentional sarcasm in reply to yours, hence the reference to “jmj-isms” and the sarcasm smiley.

 

[vardaquinn]

What are you saying? You are the one who started the thread, and chose the title?!

If you already knew it was going to be “non sensical, shampeld, and repeating ad nauseum”, why did you start it?

It is false that it is “the mentality of the CCR that if you are on involved you are rejecting or ignoring the Holy Spirit”. In fact, you cannot produce any document published by, in, or for the Catholic Charismatic Renewal that indicates this because IT IS NOT TRUE!

It is true that there are many of our separated brethren who have embraced this heretical viewpoint, as they have embraced other heresies such as Sola Scriptura. But it is not right to judge a work of God by those who depart from it. That is like saying that the TEaching of Jesus is invalid, because Judas did not believe HIm, or follow Him.

I think you’re getting mixed up, Mike didn’t start the thread.

 

[perro_sarnoso]

Virtual shouting…

Wow we’ve become virtual nit-pickers.

 

[perro_sarnoso]

Pope Paul VI gave his blessings to the renewal of the charisms given by the Holy Spirit within the Catholic Church. Can anyone defend this movement for the sake of the Holy Spirit who is guiding the Church with the charisms which the Church has always possessed? I want to defend this movement as an aftermath of the ‘inspired’ Second Vatican Council. But I don’t know where to start.

I joined the Catholic Charismatic Movement back in it’s early years '75.

What started to happen, and still does, is that there is the tendency of thinking that because Pentecostal and other protestant religions were doing similar things ie: praying in tongues; gift of prophecies; etc etc - that it was ok to [mix and match] religions indistinguishably.

Suddenly, catholics were going to protestant gatherings because “it’s the same thing”. Eventually, catholics started to talk like protestants - being “saved”; being “blessed”, being “in victory” and other typical phrases.

Then, came the shadows of doubt about Mary’s sinlessness and confession and biblical interpretation and other things…

Afterwards came the admonishments to these brothers and sisters about getting too chummy with protestantism…and of course this brought about…separation.

Not all who joined the movement fell into this error. And the catholic church became the stronger and richer because of them that stayed.

It is not the fault of the Holy Spirit…it is us…our own concupiscience…our own pride and lack of submission to the authority of the Catholic church and it’s ministers.

Stay with Rome and with the Pope.

 

[guanophore]

I joined the Catholic Charismatic Movement back in it’s early years '75.

What started to happen, and still does, is that there is the tendency of thinking that because Pentecostal and other protestant religions were doing similar things ie: praying in tongues; gift of prophecies; etc etc - that it was ok to [mix and match] religions indistinguishably.

Suddenly, catholics were going to protestant gatherings because “it’s the same thing”. Eventually, catholics started to talk like protestants - being “saved”; being “blessed”, being “in victory” and other typical phrases.

Then, came the shadows of doubt about Mary’s sinlessness and confession and biblical interpretation and other things…

Afterwards came the admonishments to these brothers and sisters about getting too chummy with protestantism…and of course this brought about…separation.

Not all who joined the movement fell into this error. And the catholic church became the stronger and richer because of them that stayed.
**
It is not the fault of the Holy Spirit…it is us…our own concupiscience…our own pride and lack of submission to the authority of the Catholic church and it’s ministers.

Stay with Rome and with the Pope**.

This really does deserve a “shout out”!

God will lead the Church through the Magesterium infallibly. If charismatics follow their instruction, messes can be cleaned, mistakes corrected, and human concupiscience overcome by His grace.