Defending the Holy Spirit, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement

[AntiqueCatholic]

I think what JMJ was saying is that the statements of the Popes about the CR do not have the force of infallible statements i.e. they need not be assented to unquestioningly. They can be critiqued.

Personally, I think the CR falls under the heading of private revelation: a person or persons claims that they are communicating with the supernatural. We are not obliged to believe that they are.

e.g. Mrs Smith, a Catholic, says that the Holy Spirit, the Third person of the Trinity, has done this or that to her. Mr Jones, also a Catholic, is not required to believe this. And futher, I would say, Mr Jones is free to critique Mrs Smith’s assertions.

 

[jmj1984]

I think what JMJ was saying is that the statements of the Popes about the CR do not have the force of infallible statements i.e. they need not be assented to unquestioningly. They can be critiqued.

Personally, I think the CR falls under the heading of private revelation: a person or persons claims that they are communicating with the supernatural. We are not obliged to believe that they are.

e.g. Mrs Smith, a Catholic, says that the Holy Spirit, the Third person of the Trinity, has done this or that to her. Mr Jones, also a Catholic, is not required to believe this. And futher, I would say, Mr Jones is free to critique Mrs Smith’s assertions.

Yeah to be honest I’ve just given up with most of the charasmatics in this discussion and put them on the ignore list, if this was a court of law their case would have been thrown out a few days ago and from a purely theological perspective their lack of knowledge and ignorance about the catholic faith is astounding. Their willingless to engage in ad hominem attacks and jump on other people is not entirely helpful either.

 

[guanophore]

I _think_ what JMJ was saying is that the statements of the Popes about the CR do not have the force of infallible statements i.e. they need not be assented to unquestioningly. They can be critiqued.

I wish that were true. On the contrary, JMJ stated repeatedly that they have “no authority”. The critique was that jmj disagrees with them.

Personally, I think the CR falls under the heading of private revelation: a person or persons claims that they are communicating with the supernatural. We are not obliged to believe that they are.

These are two different issues. The Renewal itself has been supported by the Magesterium. I am not aware of any persons’ expressions that have been approved of in this way. You are right, we are not obliged to believe that anyone claiming to have heard something from God actually has done so. But to reject the authenticity of the Renewal as an approved movement of the Holy Spirit is to reject the teaching of the Magesterium on the matter.

e.g. Mrs Smith, a Catholic, says that the Holy Spirit, the Third person of the Trinity, has done this or that to her. Mr Jones, also a Catholic, is not required to believe this. And futher, I would say, Mr Jones is free to critique Mrs Smith’s assertions.

Yes, of course. But to say that the HS cannot, or does not, speak to people in this way is not ok.

 

[guanophore]

Yeah to be honest I’ve just given up with most of the charasmatics in this discussion and put them on the ignore list, if this was a court of law their case would have been thrown out a few days ago and from a purely theological perspective their lack of knowledge and ignorance about the catholic faith is astounding. Their willingless to engage in ad hominem attacks and jump on other people is not entirely helpful either.

This is actually not such a bad thing, being as how we are in such good company. You also appear to have placed on “ignore” the last three popes, the documents of Vatican 2, the writings of the congregation of the doctrine of the faith, pastoral instruction from the Magesterium, and the contents of the New Testament on Spiritual gifts. This is quite an “ignore” list!

 

[Julia_Mae]

Yeah to be honest I’ve just given up with most of the charasmatics in this discussion and put them on the ignore list, if this was a court of law their case would have been thrown out a few days ago and from a purely theological perspective their lack of knowledge and ignorance about the catholic faith is astounding. Their willingless to engage in ad hominem attacks and jump on other people is not entirely helpful either.

I just would like to point out that the pot/kettle analogy fits quite well here. You will note that the paragraph of yours I quoted is full of ad hom.

Here are my questions: what would you do if you were praying and had a vision? When you pray for healing, do you expect to get it? Do you think it could happen instantaneously? Do you believe miracles happen today? Which ones? Do you believe the Holy Spirit hears all you think? Knows all you wish for and fear?

 

[vardaquinn]

The debate over whether miracles still happen is stupid. They do. End of story. G.K. Chesterton is right on (as always) when he says: “The most astonishing about miracles is that they happen.”

 

[OrthdxyTriumphs]

I have got a lot out of this. I never really thought it through before, but I am considering that Charismatics and Traditionalists are best understood vis a vis their position to the wider Church - what Anglicans would call Latitudinarian. Our respective thinking could be termed Para and Meta Catholic, as I suggested.

I really don’t get why traditionalists find the charismatic “thesis” (that the Holy Spirit continues to work in our day and age in awesome ways) to be contradictory to their beliefs. It seems that the “traditional” and “charismatic” views are actually completely complementary! BOTH are antidotes/antitheses to the lukewarm, trite, and cultural Catholicism that is prevalent in most parishes. Both are (ideally) centered on Christ. And both can point to the Magesterium and Sacred Tradition for support.

Pope John Paul II said the charismatic and institutional aspects of the faith are COESSENTIAL! I think much of the problem in this thread is the EITHER/OR approach to theology. Charisms and Tradition are interdependent. Charisms turn to Tradition for their authentication, and Tradition relies on the Church’s ever-present charism to sustain it and protect it from error.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I really don’t get why traditionalists find the charismatic “thesis” (that the Holy Spirit continues to work in our day and age in awesome ways) to be contradictory to their beliefs. It seems that the “traditional” and “charismatic” views are actually completely complementary! BOTH are antidotes/antitheses to the lukewarm, trite, and cultural Catholicism that is prevalent in most parishes. Both are (ideally) centered on Christ. And both can point to the Magesterium and Sacred Tradition for support.

Pope John Paul II said the charismatic and institutional aspects of the faith are COESSENTIAL! I think much of the problem in this thread is the EITHER/OR approach to theology. Charisms and Tradition are interdependent. Charisms turn to Tradition for their authentication, and Tradition relies on the Church’s ever-present charism to sustain it and protect it from error.

I agree completely. I also believe in any group there are extremes. One side at the extreme can harden into fideism, the other side at the extreme can fade into gnosticism. It seems important to avoid characterizing whole sections of the faithful by the actions of the extremes.

 

[SanAgustin]

I didn’t know I was a “Traditionalist”, but I do know I’m not a Charismatic Catholic, however that doesn’t mean I don’t believe “that the Holy Spirit continues to work in our day and age in awesome ways”. I actually do believe that, but the “awesome ways” in my view may vary from what you think is “awesome”. And therein lies the problem.

 

[TrueLight]

I actually do believe that, but the “awesome ways” in my view may vary from what you think is “awesome”. And therein lies the problem.

 

[Melchior_1]

I really don’t get why traditionalists find the charismatic “thesis” (that the Holy Spirit continues to work in our day and age in awesome ways) to be contradictory to their beliefs. It seems that the “traditional” and “charismatic” views are actually completely complementary! BOTH are antidotes/antitheses to the lukewarm, trite, and cultural Catholicism that is prevalent in most parishes. Both are (ideally) centered on Christ. And both can point to the Magesterium and Sacred Tradition for support.

Pope John Paul II said the charismatic and institutional aspects of the faith are COESSENTIAL! I think much of the problem in this thread is the EITHER/OR approach to theology. Charisms and Tradition are interdependent. Charisms turn to Tradition for their authentication, and Tradition relies on the Church’s ever-present charism to sustain it and protect it from error.

 

[guanophore]

I really don’t get why traditionalists find the charismatic “thesis” (that the Holy Spirit continues to work in our day and age in awesome ways) to be contradictory to their beliefs. It seems that the “traditional” and “charismatic” views are actually completely complementary! BOTH are antidotes/antitheses to the lukewarm, trite, and cultural Catholicism that is prevalent in most parishes. Both are (ideally) centered on Christ. And both can point to the Magesterium and Sacred Tradition for support.

Pope John Paul II said the charismatic and institutional aspects of the faith are COESSENTIAL! I think much of the problem in this thread is the EITHER/OR approach to theology. Charisms and Tradition are interdependent. Charisms turn to Tradition for their authentication, and Tradition relies on the Church’s ever-present charism to sustain it and protect it from error.

If you read this thread it will become clear to you. Some traditionalists dont accept the teachings of the Pope, the documents of Vatican 2, the Magesteial instruction, and even teh New Testament as representing authority and Tradition. They cling to the erroneous idea that the Renewal is part of the poisoned well of Protestant heresies.

 

[Denise1957]

If you read this thread it will become clear to you. Some traditionalists dont accept the teachings of the Pope, the documents of Vatican 2, the Magesteial instruction, and even teh New Testament as representing authority and Tradition. They cling to the erroneous idea that the Renewal is part of the poisoned well of Protestant heresies.

But you and the other hardline advocates of widespread use of the extraordinary gifts are dishonest in your misrepresentation of what constitutes ‘teaching of the pope,’ and ‘documents of Vatican 2,’ and ‘magisterial instruction,’ and even the New Testament.’

And you also don’t want accept what Church teaching has always been regarding the differences and use of the ordinary and extraordinary gifts, and what they are for.

When my siblings and I were teenagers, and my mom would become annoyed by the stupid things we would sometimes do, she would become philosophical about it and say…“Oh, she’s just going through a phase!”

Well, that’s what I think the advocates of CCR are doing: they are going through a “phase,” and the Church allows them to do so, just as a parent would be patient with a son or daughter who is going through a difficult time, and needs to be allowed to do so, as long as they don’t harm themselves or others. Please try to keep in mind that many Catholics have strong faith without having to resort to seeking out the extraordinary gifts such as speaking in tongues and prophesying. It would seem that the advocates of CCR cannot have a strong faith without these things. Hopefully it’s just a phase.

 

[vardaquinn]

@OrthdxyTriumphs: I agree with your post… but as yet, I am the only traditionalist I have encountered who is also charismatic.

But you and the other hardline advocates of widespread use of the extraordinary gifts are dishonest in your misrepresentation of what constitutes ‘teaching of the pope,’ and ‘documents of Vatican 2,’ and ‘magisterial instruction,’ and even the New Testament.’

Have we? Amen, amen I say to you - I have never intended to be dishonest in my presentation of Church teaching on this matter. I think it may you, and others, who have ignored what this has said.

Well, that’s what I think the advocates of CCR are doing: they are going through a “phase,” and the Church allows them to do so, just as a parent would be patient with a son or daughter who is going through a difficult time, and needs to be allowed to do so, as long as they don’t harm themselves or others.

Not what it sounds like. Especially if the Church is saying stuff like “the charismatic dimension is co-essential to the very nature of the Church”. Funny thing to be all “Oh well, we’ll be patient with them as they go through this phase” and then say “but what they’re going through in this phase is kind of essential…”

Please try to keep in mind that many Catholics have strong faith without having to resort to seeking out the extraordinary gifts such as speaking in tongues and prophesying.

I’m glad to hear it! I should hope many charismatics have so strong a faith! However, one the one hand, others do not have so strong a faith. Look at St. Thomas in the Gospels. He needed to see before he could believe. It’s far better to believe without seeing, but what’s most important was that he believed. Think about it - Jesus let him stick his hands in his side, and poke his fingers through the holes in his hand! How disrespectful is that! But Jesus knew what was important: that Thomas believed. So He let him do it.

On the other hand, a strong faith must be maintained, and it is maintained through engaging in the supernatural. Prayer, sacraments, scripture, spiritual reading, works of mercy, charisms… all these are there to boost up our growth in faith.

And on the other hand (yes, I have three hands… ), even if you have the strongest faith of all, it’s just stupid to say no to more of the presence and power of God. It’s just plain stupid to say “I don’t need that”. That’s a form of pride, I think. To say “I have such a strong faith myself, don’t need anything else”. Maybe you don’t, but why on earth would turn away from anything God has to offer that could possibly help you get holier? He’s offering it! I want everything I can get, because I know I need every little help I can possibly get. David Mangan, one of the “original charismatics” from the Dusqueyne retreat, said “If God’s giving, I’m taking - and I’m getting in line twice.”

This is part of what I am calling “The Philosophy of Moreness”. In this day and age, we’ve lost a wholistic view of the world. We’ve lost sight of the truth spoken by Hamlet in Shakespeare’s famous play: “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamed of in your philosophies”. God is bigger than we think! Believe it!

 

[Julia_Mae]

Please try to keep in mind that many Catholics have strong faith without having to resort to seeking out the extraordinary gifts such as speaking in tongues and prophesying. It would seem that the advocates of CCR cannot have a strong faith without these things. Hopefully it’s just a phase.

Denise, what if we don’t “seek them out” but just have them? You have a gift of the Spirit. I don’t which one(s) but I know you do. We all do and we have these things through the Wisdom and Grace of God to benefit one another.

I must acknowledge the extremes are pretty far out, but it’s also important not to cut out the heart to get rid of a few warts.

It’s no good to have a gift of healing, if there is no way to offer that to another. The Church hasn’t given us the parameters and structure to use the gifts we have. Healing isn’t just something priests do, and most don’t have that gift, anyway.

 

[Mike30]

What are you saying? You are the one who started the thread, and chose the title?!

If you already knew it was going to be “non sensical, shampeld, and repeating ad nauseum”, why did you start it?

It is false that it is “the mentality of the CCR that if you are on involved you are rejecting or ignoring the Holy Spirit”. In fact, you cannot produce any document published by, in, or for the Catholic Charismatic Renewal that indicates this because IT IS NOT TRUE!

It is true that there are many of our separated brethren who have embraced this heretical viewpoint, as they have embraced other heresies such as Sola Scriptura. But it is not right to judge a work of God by those who depart from it. That is like saying that the TEaching of Jesus is invalid, because Judas did not believe HIm, or follow Him.

Actually I didn’t start the thread, but I suppose that facts can sometimes get in the way and just be ignored. Since it appears that you totally misunderstood what I wrote I’ll take the time to explain it to you, Hows that?

It is false that it is “the mentality of the CCR that if you are on involved you are rejecting or ignoring the Holy Spirit”. In fact, you cannot produce any document published by, in, or for the Catholic Charismatic Renewal

I didn’t say that. What I said was that it appears that some members of the CCR or heck,maybe the whole movement believes that if you do not embrace the CCR then you are rejecting and ignoring the Holy Spirit and denying the existance and validity of the charisms.

I also said the thread has shambled along like some Franenstienien monster and shows no sign of slowing down. Since nothing at all of any substance whatsoever is being said why keep it going except as a soapbox for airing yours and other viewpoints? It is indeed nonsencical to the highest degree. Nobodys views are being changed and the endless repetitive nature of the postings gets very tiring indeed. Once evrything has been said,why keep repeating it over and over again ad nauseum?

Also there seems to be the belief or at least the impression given is that only through the CCR can the charisms be unlocked. Of course that is totally unture In fact the CCR really isn’t necessary at all in conjunction with the charisms at all,a fact that some of the supporters apparently don’t realize or choose to ignore…

And in conclusion I submit to you. Show me an encyclical,a Papal Bull,a catechism entry,anything coming from the Popes that states the Church as a whole should embrace the movement.The CCR not the charisms. They are two totally separate things. Something that shows the CCR itself is to be embraced. Speeches given to private audiences comprised of charismatics don’t count because only they were being addressed. Neither do totally unfounded statements which claim this Pope or that Pope spoke or prayed in tongues in concert with the CCR. Something hard, cold and factual.

And please don’t bring up Corinthians. Remember why that was written in the first place. To address errors that had arisen in which some apparently felt that they were spiritually superior,to others just as apparently do some of the supporters of the CCRas well as sadly some traditionalists on this very thread

 

[Julia_Mae]

I also said the thread has shambled along like some Franenstienien monster and shows no sign of slowing down. Since nothing at all of any substance whatsoever is being said why keep it going except as a soapbox for airing yours and other viewpoints?

Actually, that would be the best possible use of cyberspace in a forum, other than prayer threads. Airing our viewpoints brings information to each side. Every person who identifies themselves as “charismatic” is not going off to dancing Masses with tamborines and everyone fainting in heaps while speaking gibberish.

Some of us are the quiet old ladies praying before Mass instead of calling loudly across the nave to our friends. Some of us have gifts we are not parading around, some of us have had experiences that we neither made up nor were the result is “locking our knees.” Some of is us are contemplative as well, some of us are quite traditional. There wasn’t anyone more charismatic than Padre Pio.

The Holy Spirit is real. God is real. You’d be surprised how many people think the Church is a lot of humans and human made stuff with the Eucharist in it and God someone we’ll encounter when we die. But the real way it works is: when we open to God He comes. He comes through us to one another. He comes and changes us, renews us, uses us, and makes His home in us.

Sharing our experiences is a good thing. Thinking we have to “decide” or someone has to be “right” isn’t very useful.

 

[Denise1957]

Fr. William Most writes on EWTN about the differences between the sanctifying category of grace (actual and habitual grace - the seven gifts fall into the habitual category), and the charismatic category, which includes both ordinary and extraordinary. He says that the ordinary charismatic gifts are “widely given,” and the extraordinary gifts (of healing, or tongues, or miracles) are given when and to whom the Spirit wills, and that they are not routine today.

He writes:

"Grace is a gift from God to us. There are two great categories or groups of graces: sanctifying, and charismatic.

Sanctifying graces are aimed at making the recipient holy. They include: actual grace, a grace He sent me at this moment, to lead me and enable me to do a particular good thing here and now, and habitual grace (also called sanctifying) which actually does make the recipient holy. It gives the soul the radical ability to take in the face to face vision of God in the next life. Increase in sanctifying grace means an increase in that capacity - for since the vision is infinite, our capacity can never reach the limit of growth.

The other category is called charismatic. These graces are not aimed directly at making the recipient holy. They are for some other sort of benefit to the individual or the community. There are two kinds again: ordinary and extraordinary.

Where do the gifts of the Holy Spirit fit in? There are two groups of them, one in sanctifying, the other one in the charismatic category.

In the sanctifying category we find the seven gifts, which are given along with sanctifying (habitual) grace.

In the charismatic category we find both the ordinary gifts - e.g., the gift to be a good parent or a good teacher - and the extraordinary gifts, those which are or seen as miraculous, such as the gifts of healing, of tongues, or miracles. The ordinary charismatic gifts are widely given. The extraordinary gifts are given when and to whom the spirit wills, as St. Paul tells us in 1 Cor 12. 11. They are not routine today, though they were in the first generation Church, as we see from 1 Cor 12-14."

Julia Mae, I can’t answer your question regarding “having” gifts (extraordinary gifts, you mean?) without seeking them out. But I’d look to what the Church has always taught regarding ordinary and extraordinary graces, and what the differences and categories are.

The above quote is from EWTN, written by Fr. William Most, and it gives a good description of the types of graces and what category they fall into. For some reason that I don’t understand, advocates of CR don’t pay any attention to what the Church has always taught regarding graces.

Here’s a link to the article:

ewtn.com/library/scriptur/gifts.txt

 

[guanophore]

But you and the other hardline advocates of widespread use of the extraordinary gifts are dishonest in your misrepresentation of what constitutes 'teaching of the pope,' and 'documents of Vatican 2,' and 'magisterial instruction,' and even the New Testament.'

How so?

And you also don’t want accept what Church teaching has always been regarding the differences and use of the ordinary and extraordinary gifts, and what they are for.

What makes you think not? Is there any post in this thread where I have taken such a position?

.“Oh, she’s just going through a phase!”

Well, that’s what I think the advocates of CCR are doing: they are going through a “phase,” and the Church allows them to do so, just as a parent would be patient with a son or daughter who is going through a difficult time, and needs to be allowed to do so, as long as they don’t harm themselves or others.

Yes, I am sure this is true. As has been stated, there should be no “renewal”. We are all called to live a full and powerfully spirit filled life.

Please try to keep in mind that many Catholics have strong faith without having to resort to seeking out the extraordinary gifts such as speaking in tongues and prophesying.

As I have repeatedly affirmed. But your accusation is disingenuous. People in the renewal are not “seeking extraordinary gifts”. We are seeking a deeper walk with God. The gifts just happened to come along in the process.

It would seem that the advocates of CCR cannot have a strong faith without these things. Hopefully it’s just a phase.

I think that some cannot, or did not. The NT is clear that such gifts are given to novices in the faith to build them up for the work of God.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Julia Mae, I can’t answer your question regarding “having” gifts (extraordinary gifts, you mean?) without seeking them out.

Here’s the thing. The word “extraordinary” is only applied because the manifestation of the gift seems so obviously miraculous. But when Saint Paul speak of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1 Cor 12, he starts with: “the expression of wisdom.”

The Church doesn’t make anyone a Doctor because they speak in tongues, they do it because they can express Divine Wisdom. That’s as miraculous an intervention as there is. And, I don’t think any of those Doctors sought out special gifts. Just as I don’t think most charismatics do. We just want to be close to God in the Spirit.

Paul’s list wasn’t exhaustive. Let’s say you have a special devotion to Adoration or serving the elderly. Wherever we feel called, we are called through the Holy Spirit to the work. I think people like myself, we are called by the Spirit to the Spirit and then things emerge.

If a charismatic Catholic has an “extraordinary” gift, it isn’t like it’s their fault, like they ran out and said, “Make me a healer!” You have gifts, you didn’t go get them. You can’t anyway. I mean, it’s impossible. If you have gifts you don’t know about, how will they be of benefit to those around you? Or, perhaps you are very humble and just don’t recognize your own gifts.

Being charismatic isn’t about saying “Gimmee” to God.