Defending the Holy Spirit, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement

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Indyann said:
Keep in mind, this is written from the view of the SSPX. We could hardly expect them to approve of ANYTHING post Vat.II.
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That’s a good clarification.

You know, I’m interested in the roots of the movement and how it relates to the roots of the Pentecostal one, which I believe pre-dates it.
 
SanAgustin said:
That’s a good clarification.

You know, I’m interested in the roots of the movement and how it relates to the roots of the Pentecostal one, which I believe pre-dates it.
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I am not sure if this website has been linked or not,but I will link it again.

The Renewal and the Church

The charismatic experience, which began at Duquesne in 1967 and caught on campuses across the United States, soon moved beyond colleges and began to have an impact on regular parishes and other Catholic institutions. Loose organisations and networks were formed. Catholic charismatic conferences began to be held, drawing massive crowds. One conference held at Notre Dame campus in South Bend Indiana drew over 30,000 people. It soon caught the attention of the church.

Leon Joseph Suenens Leon Joseph Suenens, the Cardinal of Malines-Brussels and one of the four moderators of the Second Vatican Council, was one of the first champions of the Charismatic renewal in the Catholic Church. After visiting some of the principal centers he understood “that pentecostal grace was at work, and that it was not a question of a movement - there was no founder, no rule, no precise structure - but the breath of the Spirit, which was vital for many aspects of life and indeed for all movements”.

After presenting his findings to Pope Paul VI, he recommended that the Pope invite the Catholic leaders of this Renewal on a pilgrimage to Rome with a view of witnessing to their faith and their faithfulness to the Church.

In the summer of 1975, some 10,000 Catholic charismatics gathered in St. Peter’s Basilica. Also present were prominent Protestants who were invited to take part as well, thus giving the movement a moving ecumenical dimension. In his homily, Pope Paul VI called the Charismatic Renewal “the good fortune for the Church and the World” and thereby gave his formal seal of approval to the movement.

Cardinal Suenens was asked to oversee the integration of the Catholic Renewal into the heart of the Church. He accepted the mission. From 1974-1986, he also drafted a series of six articles, the “Malines Documents,” which detailed the personalities and ideas he wanted fostered in the Charismatic movement, among them being ecumenism, social action, and the strange phenomenon of “slaying in the spirit.”

Encouraged by the leadership of Pope Paul VI and later by John Paul II, many Catholic bishops of the United States, Canada, Mexico, South America, and Europe wrote pastoral statements supporting and encouraging the Renewal.

Vatican II said this about the charisms: “It is not only through the sacraments and Church ministries that the Holy Spirit sanctifies and leads the people of God. He distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank. ‘The manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone for profit’ (1Cor.12:7). These charismatic gifts, whether they be the most outstanding or the more simple and widely diffused, are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation, for they are exceedingly suitable and useful for the needs of the Church.”

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Indyann said:
The charismatic experience, which began at Duquesne in 1967 and caught on campuses across the United States, soon moved beyond colleges and began to have an impact on regular parishes and other Catholic institutions. Loose organisations and networks were formed. Catholic charismatic conferences began to be held, drawing massive crowds. One conference held at Notre Dame campus in South Bend Indiana drew over 30,000 people. It soon caught the attention of the church.
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The problem with this history of the movement is that it fails to mention the rise of the Pentecostal movement in the US (at least this acknowledges that it started in the US, an important point to consider) which I believe was started in the early 1900s.

It’s difficult to read a historical account of the CCR without mentioning, at least, very similar movements that started in the same century and in the same country (again Pentecostalism). I’m not trying to say this invalidates the whole thing, but one can’t deny that if you talk about its origin you must talk about the origin of the Pentecostals.
 
guanophore said:
Now that I realize the Holy Father is not considered part of the Magesterium on this thread, I withdraw my assertion. Ordinary instruction is not considered authoritative here, either, I have learned, so what he has to say seems to have no value in the matter. This being the case, I am indeed “reaching” to accept his support as such.
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I am glad you picked up this, it is a common misunderstanding. Unless it is better then Ordinary Magisterium, it dose not require a full assent of faith, and while it might be authoritative, we are allowed to disagree with said teaching.
 
guanophore said:
Not unlike the poorly catechized and over zealous Catholics that were swept away by the Spirit of Vatican 2, resulting in very poor spiritual formation and gross liturgical abuses.

The Holy Fathers, and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith have given instructions to the faithful involved in the movement. They are posted on the Vatican website so they will be available to everyone. If you don’t wish to avail yourself of them, because you need something with your name on it, that is up to you. It in no way minimizes the value of their instruction.
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Without the participation of poorly catechized and overzealous people the movement most likely never would have gotten off the ground in the first place. Remember one of the first goals of the movement was ecumenical dialogue with protestants at whatever cost…I am certainly old enough to remember those days following the Council when everything old was bad and everthing new was good and change no matter what it caused was to be applauded.

I certainly hope that the instructions you allude to consist of more than the one regarding healing services and Masses, which from the wording seem to indicate they were issued primarily to reign in the abuses, lets remember Archbishop Milingo at this moment who was once the darling of the CCR, which typically come in charismatic circles.

In fact if you look at charismatic doings from the start until now, the Church at Corinth, the followers of Marcion, thye various faith healers and prophets of the pentecostal movement right up to the great Benny Hinn:eek: you will see that there has probably never been a movement as fraught with dangers and abuses as charismaticism. And I submit to you that in that light one would do very well to question and question repeatedly what allegedly happens at these sessions.:

If the faithful have been fooled and deceived by leaders and movements in this area from the very beginning, how can we say that suddenly, today, we have matured spiritually enough that we now know better?
 
guanophore said:
jmj does not …
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Posters are not topics, your comments are highly inappropriate.
btw I moved your question to another thread…
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Also inappropriate. I will post by my own choice, you can answer or not, or suggest other locations. I will choose for myself whether or not to post there.

The Church, by not providing guidance within the standard life of the Parish in the great majority of cases, has, itself, created the situation where a person with gifts is unable to offer them. Some people, feeling called by God to do so, then seek other venues in which to express those gifts, and so, are led away from the heart of the Church.

Others, simply are left unable to bring the Graces they have been given to the rest of the faithful. Neither of these are very useful options, it seems to b me.
 
Julia_Mae said:
I have no idea what this means, but I understand you don’t wish to engage in dialogue with me.
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It means that if you had read the whole thread you wouldnt be asking the questions you’re asking and so because I’m lazy and a little worn out I don’t want to post the same answers again, so you can find the answers to your questions earlier on in the thread 😛
 
I’ve been both reading about and reading St. Thomas Aquinas a lot the past few weeks, and I couldn’t help notice the similarities in the criticism of Thomas’ contemporaries to some of the arguments used on here. The criticism of the CR on here is that it has roots in Protestant literature and theology, and must therefore be wrong. St. Thomas Aquinas drew sources from a whole variety of people, like the ancient Greek philosophers, Muslims, and non-Christians. He was criticized for taking inspiration from heretics, and contradicting previous saints, and he claimed that not even saints were infallible. He wasn’t concerned with who said it, but what they were saying. According to him, the truth was truth no matter what source it came from, even if that source was a heretic. It is interesting and ironic that this is almost the opposite thought process of some Thomistic scholars, and some individuals claiming allegiance to Thomas in this thread.

Also, many of the criticisms of the early Dominicans and Fransiscan mendicant orders strike me as similar to many of the criticisms of charismatics.

Very ironic.
 
SanAgustin said:
The problem with this history of the movement is that it fails to mention the rise of the Pentecostal movement in the US (at least this acknowledges that it started in the US, an important point to consider) which I believe was started in the early 1900s.

It’s difficult to read a historical account of the CCR without mentioning, at least, very similar movements that started in the same century and in the same country (again Pentecostalism). I’m not trying to say this invalidates the whole thing, but one can’t deny that if you talk about its origin you must talk about the origin of the Pentecostals.
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It also starts in the “middle” of the story really. It leaves out the Papal prayers that initiated the movement of the Spirit in a “new Pentecost”, as well as the Vatican council that clarified the role of la ministry.

I think chasing down the rabbit trail of abuses and movments not supported by the Church is not going to help (Protestant Pentecostalism). I think we can all agree that the abuse of the gifts without proper authority through the Apostolic Succession is inappropriate, and causes more problems than it solves.
 
Irish_Polock said:
I am glad you picked up this, it is a common misunderstanding. Unless it is better then Ordinary Magisterium, it dose not require a full assent of faith, and while it might be authoritative, we are allowed to disagree with said teaching.
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What boggles my mind is that the ordinary instruction of the Magesterium is ignored, said to be lacking in authority, and even supporting evil. I realize that one is not required to agree with the speeches of the Popes, but to take the stance that they have no value is truly appalling to me, especailly on a Traditional subforum. This means that the popes since Leo XIII, when he asked for the Novena to the Holy Spirit, have no value in their prayers and instruction to the faithful.

Of course one can disagree, the question is, why would you? What have they said that is problematic in their instructions to Charismatics?
 
Mike30 said:
Without the participation of poorly catechized and overzealous people the movement most likely never would have gotten off the ground in the first place.
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I suppose this could be said about many, if not most, lay movements in the Church.
Mike30 said:
Remember one of the first goals of the movement was ecumenical dialogue with protestants at whatever cost…
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Can you point me to the documents of the Renewal that state this? I am unable to find any support for this position in any of the papal addresses, or teachings that were approved by the Vatican.
Mike30 said:
I am certainly old enough to remember those days following the Council when everything old was bad and everthing new was good and change no matter what it caused was to be applauded.
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Do we not agree that this attitude was never part of the Teaching of Vatican 2?

Blaming misunderstanding on the Council is inappropriate. People that went hog wild and got off track do not invalidate the proper instruction that came from the council
Mike30 said:
In fact if you look at charismatic doings from the start until now, the Church at Corinth, the followers of Marcion, thye various faith healers and prophets of the pentecostal movement right up to the great Benny Hinn:eek: you will see that there has probably never been a movement as fraught with dangers and abuses as charismaticism. And I submit to you that in that light one would do very well to question and question repeatedly what allegedly happens at these sessions.:
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I don’t doubt that this is the reason the gifts have been marginalized.
Mike30 said:
If the faithful have been fooled and deceived by leaders and movements in this area from the very beginning, how can we say that suddenly, today, we have matured spiritually enough that we now know better?
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The Church is infallible. She cannot teach error. Those who remain within her bosom can be confident they are safe from the wiles of the evil one.
 
Julia_Mae said:
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I will post by my own choice, you can answer or not, or suggest other locations. I will choose for myself whether or not to post there.
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Certainly your choice. I think it is a good question/topic worthy of exploration, certainly something you won’t get on this thread.
Julia_Mae said:
The Church, by not providing guidance within the standard life of the Parish in the great majority of cases, has, itself, created the situation where a person with gifts is unable to offer them. Some people, feeling called by God to do so, then seek other venues in which to express those gifts, and so, are led away from the heart of the Church.
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Seems like an excuse to to be obedient to the instructions of the Councils and Magesterium in this area.
Julia_Mae said:
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Others, simply are left unable to bring the Graces they have been given to the rest of the faithful. Neither of these are very useful options, it seems to b me.
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I agree. I think obedience to the Magesterium is essential, and all the other options are not useful.
 
guanophore said:
Certainly your choice. I think it is a good question/topic worthy of exploration, certainly something you won’t get on this thread…
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Too much guano. You are the one who refused to answer the question which is why there is no discussion, yet, you want to keep bringing it up as if you ever said anything of substance. which is, of course, untrue. Endlessly repeating “obedience to the Magesterium” doesn’t alter the fact that what I said initially and keep saying is correct. Stop trying to claim victory in a race you refused to run.
 
Julia_Mae said:
Too much guano. You are the one who refused to answer the question which is why there is no discussion, yet, you want to keep bringing it up as if you ever said anything of substance. which is, of course, untrue.
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I am certainly willing to explore the question, just not on this thread. 😉
Julia_Mae said:
Endlessly repeating “obedience to the Magesterium” doesn’t alter the fact that what I said initially and keep saying is correct. Stop trying to claim victory in a race you refused to run.
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Is it your position that there is no Church authorized instruction for the Charismatic Renewal?

Maybe you are like jmj, waiting for a Papal Encyclical?
 
I’d say the Church doesn’t have a formal way for people to exercise their ‘gifts’ because quality control is impossible, unless you appointed advanced mystics to do it.

Imagine Father Psychic going along a row of applicants and saying “‘Deluded’, ‘Deluded’, ‘Deluded’, ‘Oppressed’ (see me later)’, ‘Deluded’, ‘Deluded’, ‘Aha!, you I can use…’”

I guess if it occurs, it’s informal. One asks around and goes to see Fr. So-and-so, who has a touch, or Fr. Clued-in, who knows a certain lady who is a living saint.
 
AntiqueCatholic said:
I’d say the Church doesn’t have a formal way for people to exercise their ‘gifts’ because quality control is impossible, unless you appointed advanced mystics to do it.

Imagine Father Psychic going along a row of applicants and saying “‘Deluded’, ‘Deluded’, ‘Deluded’, ‘Oppressed’ (see me later)’, ‘Deluded’, ‘Deluded’, ‘Aha!, you I can use…’”

I guess if it occurs, it’s informal. One asks around and goes to see Fr. So-and-so, who has a touch, or Fr. Clued-in, who knows a certain lady who is a living saint.
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I’d say it’s mostly like that because the majority of the Church has never even heard of the charismatic gifts. It shouldn’t be that way. In any case, I think you misunderstand the purpose of the gifts. There isn’t so much a formal way one uses them. Often, one simply uses them whenever the Holy Spirit has you use them. As Peter says in one of his letters, prophecy is never put forth by man willing it.

It should be… in this community, this person has this special gift, this one has this special gift, this one this one, and so on. All these gifts build off of each other and support eachother in the work of the Body. It’s really the fundamental way the Body of Christ is supposed to be functioning.
 
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