Defending the Holy Spirit, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement

[guanophore]

I suppose that you are saying then that the CCR does not encourage or permit participation in non Catholic charismatic events. Is that correct?

The faithful are directed to follow the Catechism and the Teaching of the Church regarding ecumenism. Participating in Protestant services and Bible Studies is highly discouraged, especially among novices, who don’t realize when they are being exposed to heresies. To combat wandering, parishes are encouraged to have Catholic prayer meetings and Catholic Bible studies with Catholic leaders and teachers.

 

[guanophore]

I find it troubling that the defenders of the CCR do not except the fact that gifts such as "speaking in tongues" had ceased.  Again, I will present to them CLEAR teaching that this is indeed true.

We do not because this is not the Teaching of the Church. We are bound in all things to embrace the One Faith that was passed down to us from the Apostles. The charisms of the HS are part of that faith. There is no teaching of the Magesterium that these gifts have “ceased”. On the contrary, Jesus taught that the HS will be with us “until the end of the Age” (He comes again).

These gifts had served their purpose in the apostolic age and the first centuries of the Church.

This is the opinion of a couple revered theologians. Not all of their opinions equate to the TEachings of the Church. Jerome rejected the Deuterocanon, yet, the Church maintained that it was inspired, and included it in the canon of Scripture.

The fact that the majority of these CCR prayer meetings and Masses have untested, and unauthentic charisms - that have ceased in the early Church - speaks for itself.

Yes, if you embrace a heterodox dispensationalist view, this is true. However, the Church does not embrace this position. That being said, I do agree that there are many untested charisms, and some of them are not authentic. This is a critical pastoral issue.

 

[Mike30]

The faithful are directed to follow the Catechism and the Teaching of the Church regarding ecumenism. Participating in Protestant services and Bible Studies is highly discouraged, especially among novices, who don’t realize when they are being exposed to heresies. To combat wandering, parishes are encouraged to have Catholic prayer meetings and Catholic Bible studies with Catholic leaders and teachers.

I notice that you chose to sidestep the other points I brought up,. Wonder why Not really surprised but wondering none the less.

So are all CCR members directed to avoid such gatherings or just the novices? I would be most interested in finding that out since I personally know more than a few members of the CCR, including one priest and two deacons that routinely attend such gatherings…

 

[guanophore]

I notice that you chose to sidestep the other points I brought up,. Wonder why:hmmm: Not really surprised but wondering none the less.

I am willing to accept that you have these expereinces based upon your testimony. I have different experiences, so do not perceive things in the same way you do. It seems as though you have been exposed to a great many abuses, and this is regrettable.

So are all CCR members directed to avoid such gatherings or just the novices? I would be most interested in finding that out since I personally know more than a few members of the CCR, including one priest and two deacons that routinely attend such gatherings…

The CCR is goverened by the American Bishops, and the International office in Rome.The Holy Father has appointed a liaison to pastor the movement. All of these official sources have definitively discouraged the faithful from drawing from heretical sources.

Priests and deacons have had more training and education than the average lay Catholic (it is assumed) and therefore are less prone to fall into heresies if they are exposed to them. However, I have personally witnessed this occuring myself, so I can certainly vouch that it does happen. “Let the one who stands take heed, lest he fall”.

I attended Protestant prayer meetings and bible studies for the better part of 20 years before I found my way back. It is not an activity that I would encourage or recommend to any Catholic. However, I myself am remiss in failing to initiate a regular Bible study and prayer meeting in my own parish, so I can hardly find fault when others have not done it either. People are hungry for scripture and a powerful personal prayer life. If they don’t find guidance in their own parishes, they will easily wander.

 

[Mike30]

I am willing to accept that you have these expereinces based upon your testimony. I have different experiences, so do not perceive things in the same way you do. It seems as though you have been exposed to a great many abuses, and this is regrettable.

The CCR is goverened by the American Bishops, and the International office in Rome.The Holy Father has appointed a liaison to pastor the movement. All of these official sources have definitively discouraged the faithful from drawing from heretical sources.

Priests and deacons have had more training and education than the average lay Catholic (it is assumed) and therefore are less prone to fall into heresies if they are exposed to them. However, I have personally witnessed this occuring myself, so I can certainly vouch that it does happen. “Let the one who stands take heed, lest he fall”.

I attended Protestant prayer meetings and bible studies for the better part of 20 years before I found my way back. It is not an activity that I would encourage or recommend to any Catholic. However, I myself am remiss in failing to initiate a regular Bible study and prayer meeting in my own parish, so I can hardly find fault when others have not done it either. People are hungry for scripture and a powerful personal prayer life. If they don’t find guidance in their own parishes, they will easily wander.

I submit that the miracle of the eucharistic sacrifice and transubstantiation itself,with Jesus Himself physically with us should at a bare minimum keep people from wandering, looking for something else,something more meaningful…

 

[vardaquinn]

I submit that the miracle of the eucharistic sacrifice and transubstantiation itself,with Jesus Himself physically with us should at a bare minimum keep people from wandering, looking for something else,something more meaningful…

Well, ideally, it should be. But it’s not. Because people are wandering.

 

[Irish_Polock]

Yes, if you embrace a heterodox dispensationalist view, this is true. However, the Church does not embrace this position. That being said, I do agree that there are many untested charisms, and some of them are not authentic. This is a critical pastoral issue.

I don’t feel that the view that I hold is heterodox at all, in fact, I feel my view would be the more orthodox of the two. Since you are of the Eastern persuasion, maybe you could tell me if this idea has been a traditional idea throughout the East? I have not found any Churches that have embraced it as the Roman Church and protestant have.

Also, I think of myself as more prudent and cautious, then a dispensationalist.

 

[guanophore]

Also, I think of myself as more prudent and cautious, then a dispensationalist.

Prudence and caution are also fruits of the HS, and are to be commended. Abrogating the Gifts of God as unnecessary is not.

 

[Mike30]

Well, ideally, it should be. But it’s not. Because people are wandering.

Then the question becomes why are they wandering,what exactly are they looking for and what are they hoping to find? If you already have Jesus present as the Catholic Church does then it seems to me that you have already found whatever important could be found. I know why protestants do these things.It is because they literally have nothing else. We as Catholics do have so much more. I just don’t understand it, I really don’t.

 

[vardaquinn]

Then the question becomes why are they wandering,what exactly are they looking for and what are they hoping to find? If you already have Jesus present as the Catholic Church does then it seems to me that you have already found whatever important could be found. I know why protestants do these things.It is because they literally have nothing else. We as Catholics do have so much more. I just don’t understand it, I really don’t.

This is an interesting question that I’ve pondered over for a while. Kind of the typical reason I’ve heard why people leave the Church to become Protestants is “Nobody told me about Jesus”. Which… on the one hand, is kind of ridiculous. What did they think they meant when they said “lamb of God you take away the sins of the world”?? I think then these people have not found Jesus in the Catholic Church (for whatever reason; their own fault, the fault of pastors and teachers and parishes… whatever). And so they go looking elsewhere. They’re not being fed, or at least they don’t think they are. They think they’re being fed more substantially outside of the Church. Perhaps like the famine in Genesis. Israel and his sons went to Egypt to be fed. They left the Promised Land, and went to a foreign land to get their food. We can only pray that Our Lord will draw these people back to the Promised Land, where they’re going to find their true home and their true food.

I don’t understand it either.

 

[guanophore]

Then the question becomes why are they wandering,what exactly are they looking for and what are they hoping to find? If you already have Jesus present as the Catholic Church does then it seems to me that you have already found whatever important could be found. I know why protestants do these things.It is because they literally have nothing else. We as Catholics do have so much more. I just don’t understand it, I really don’t.

I think it is hard for people who have not experienced it to understand it. Something like a gouty toe. If a person has never suffered from gout, it is hard to appreciate.

For me, I left because I was looking for authentic Christianity. My family went to Mass every Sunday, Confession every Sat. and some of us kids went to Catholic school. I rarely met anyone who seemed to live what I heard being preached or read in the Scriptures. To me it seemed like a form of godliness, without the power thereof.

I also had a great hunger for the Word of God, and there were no Catholic Bible studies. I was easy prey for the Baptists who carried their bibles to school. They seemed to live what they said they believed, and were willing to suffer persecution for it.

 

[jmj1984]

I had the good fortune to purchase a book on St Vincent Ferrers life a few days ago which arrived today and included his spiritual treatises in which he says the following which is relevant to this subject ‘…The first remedy against the spiritual temptations which the devil plants in the hearts of many persons in these unhappy times, is to have no desire to procure by prayer, meditation, or any other good work, what are called revelations, or spiritual experiences, beyond what happens in the ordinary course of things; such a desire of things which surpass the common order can have no other root or foundation but pride, presumption, a vain curiosity in what regards the things of God, and, in short an exceedingly weak faith. It is to punish this evil desire that God abandons the soul, and permits it to fall into the illusions and temptations of the devil, who seduces it, and represents to it false visions and delusive revelations… Be thoroughly persuaded, then, that true revelations, and the extraordinary means by which God’s secrets are known, are not the result of the desire of which we have spoken nor of any dilgence or effort on the part of the soul itself; but that they are solely the effects of the pure Goodness of God communicationg itself to a soul filled with humulity… Nor ought we even to exercise ourselves in acts of humulity, and in the fear of God, with a view to being favoured with visions, revelations and extraordinary sensations, for this would be to fall into the very sins to which such desires lead… The Soul that attaches itself to these false consolations falls into very dangerous errors; for God justly permits the devil to have power to aaugment in it these kinds of spiritual tastes, to repeat them frequently and to inspire it with sentiments that are false, dangerous and full of illusions, but which the misguided soul imagines to be true. Alas! How many souls have been sdeuced by these deceitful consolations? The majority of raptures and ecstasies, or to call them by their proper name, the frenzies of these forerunners of Antichrist spring from this cause. Hence the only consolation you should admit into your soul in time of prayer, is that which is produced by the consciousness of your nothingness and misery, a consciousness which will preserve you in humulity, and inspire you with profound reverence for the grandeur and majesty of God, and the desire that he may be honoured and glorified. Consolations such as these cannot mislead you… If however their sentiments and language are in perfect accord with the dogmas of religon, with what we are taught in the sacred writings, and there is nothing in them offenseive to reality we must not despise them… yet it will be well not to entirely rely on them, since it frequently happens, and especially in spiritual temptations, that falsehood is concealed under the appearance of what is good and virtuous. Often does the devil avail himself of these appearences in order to deceive, and diffuse more easily his fatal poison, when there is less reason to suspect him. I am of opinion that, on such occasions, it will be more pleasing to God not to pass judgement on these extraordinary matters, despite the apperance of truth with which they are clothed, and to leave them for what they are worth, unless they occur to persons whose probity, prudence and humulity are so far beyond the reach of suspicion that we have every reason to suppose that they can neither fall into illusion, nor be misled by the spirit of the devil.’

If only Charasmatics would apply the words of this wise saint.

 

[guanophore]

I had the good fortune to purchase a book on St Vincent Ferrers life a few days ago which arrived today and included his *spiritual treatises* in which he says the following which is relevant to this subject '**..The first remedy against the spiritual temptations which the devil plants in the hearts of many persons in these unhappy times, is to have no desire to procure by prayer, meditation, or any other good work, what are called revelations, or spiritual experiences, beyond what happens in the ordinary course of things; such a desire of things which surpass the common order can have no other root or foundation but pride, presumption, a vain curiosity in what regards the things of God, and, in short an exceedingly weak faith. **

This is very true I think. It is not appropriate to “desire to procure” anything from God. All we have from Him is by His grace, and nothing is owed to us. When we have done all that is commanded of us, we should say “we are unworthy servants, and only done that which is our due”.

The difference for charismatics is that we consider the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirt as “the ordinary course of things” so for us, we are not seeking anything unusual.

It is also true that the gifts are given to those who are weak in faith, so that they can be built up in it. This is clear from Paul’s comments to the Corinthians, who were clearly amateurs in the faith. These gifts, unlike characterological gifts, are given to the novice and the inexperienced.
jmj1984;8417531:

It is to punish this evil desire that God abandons the soul, and permits it to fall into the illusions and temptations of the devil, who seduces it, and represents to it false visions and delusive revelations… Be thoroughly persuaded, then, that true revelations, and the extraordinary means by which God’s secrets are known, are not the result of the desire of which we have spoken nor of any dilgence or effort on the part of the soul itself; but that they are solely the effects of the pure Goodness of God communicationg itself to a soul filled with humulity

…

This humility is a key. When one approaches the HS with an attitude of supplicance, and desired to be filled with all and only what God desires, then such a soul will not suffer disappointment if one does not get a certain “gift”, as you often see, and such persons will not have to “fake” having received gifts.

Nor ought we even to exercise ourselves in acts of humulity, and in the fear of God, with a view to being favoured with visions, revelations and extraordinary sensations, for this would be to fall into the very sins to which such desires lead…

I have always had a problem with Penitentes, but even with those activities I consider excessive, I don’t think the seekers are trying to be favored by God with any of theses things.

The Soul that attaches itself to these false consolations falls into very dangerous errors; for God justly permits the devil to have power to aaugment in it these kinds of spiritual tastes, to repeat them frequently and to inspire it with sentiments that are false, dangerous and full of illusions, but which the misguided soul imagines to be true. Alas! How many souls have been sdeuced by these deceitful consolations?

It would be interesting to know how many souls, certainly!

The majority of raptures and ecstasies, or to call them by their proper name, the frenzies of these forerunners of Antichrist spring from this cause.

Sounds like some of those frenzies you see in Pentecostal circles, for sure.

Hence the only consolation you should admit into your soul in time of prayer, is that which is produced by the consciousness of your nothingness and misery, a consciousness which will preserve you in humulity, and inspire you with profound reverence for the grandeur and majesty of God, and the desire that he may be honoured and glorified.

This is definitely an attitude that should be fostered throughout the Church, not just in the Renewal. This attitude places the Gifts. of the HS in the proper context.

Consolations such as these cannot mislead you… If however their sentiments and language are in perfect accord with the dogmas of religon, with what we are taught in the sacred writings, and there is nothing in them offenseive to reality we must not despise them…

This is all the people in the Renewal are saying, jmj, and the Holy Fathers. There are valid gifts that are to be received. They are not offensive, when received in the right spirit and attitude.

 

[guanophore]

yet it will be well not to entirely rely on them, since it frequently happens, and especially in spiritual temptations, that falsehood is concealed under the appearance of what is good and virtuous. Often does the devil avail himself of these appearences in order to deceive, and diffuse more easily his fatal poison, when there is less reason to suspect him.

This is also a good reason that one must not be led away from the Sacramental life of the Church, where our reliance needs to be constantly.

I am of opinion that, on such occasions, it will be more pleasing to God not to pass judgement on these extraordinary matters, despite the apperance of truth with which they are clothed, and to leave them for what they are worth, unless they occur to persons whose probity, prudence and humulity are so far beyond the reach of suspicion that we have every reason to suppose that they can neither fall into illusion, nor be misled by the spirit of the devil.

’

If only Charasmatics would apply the words of this wise saint.

Indeed. And if only non-Charismatics would also heed the words of this wise saint, to refrain from judgement on these extraordinarey matters.

 

[jmj1984]

This is also a good reason that one must not be led away from the Sacramental life of the Church, where our reliance needs to be constantly.

Indeed. And if only non-Charismatics would also heed the words of this wise saint, to refrain from judgement on these extraordinarey matters.

Accept of course that the saint says not to judge ONLY when these visions and ecstasies say nothing contrary to Dogma and yet as others have said again and again and as has yet to be refuted there are numerous dogmas or beliefs inherent to the charasmatic movement which are contrary to Dogma.

Ultimately the point of my post was not to persuade you differently, because your mind is so wrapped up in the charasmatic movement that it moulds facts to suit its opinions rather than changing its opinions according to the facts, rather it was to show a clear condemnation of the inherent and explicit beliefs of the Charasmatic movement from a saint who was gifted to be a channel through which God performed numerous miracles.

 

[jmj1984]

This is very true I think. It is not appropriate to “desire to procure” anything from God. All we have from Him is by His grace, and nothing is owed to us. When we have done all that is commanded of us, we should say “we are unworthy servants, and only done that which is our due”.

The difference for charismatics is that we consider the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirt as “the ordinary course of things” so for us, we are not seeking anything unusual.

It is also true that the gifts are given to those who are weak in faith, so that they can be built up in it. This is clear from Paul’s comments to the Corinthians, who were clearly amateurs in the faith. These gifts, unlike characterological gifts, are given to the novice and the inexperienced.

The problem here is that you are imposing your beliefs on the text. It is completely irrelevant that you think these gifts are usual, St Vincent Ferrer is not and it is him I am quoting and him you are misquoting. He does not believe the gifts are usual and further does not believe one should seek them. That is undeniable and does not require either your opinion or mine.

What is also a fact is that there is a veritable plethora of sources both catholic, non-catholic and charasmatic which testify that the Catholic Charasmatic movement was born out of a desire to experience the gifts which non-catholic charasmatics possessed and that shortly after its birth these gifts began to manifest. It is equally undeniable that these gifts have become a hallmark of the movement and have attracted many to the movement. St Vincent Ferrer is clear that this is wrong and dangerous. He is equally clear that these visions, gifts and consolations when not consistent with dogma must be totally shunned as the work of the devil and yet the charasmatic movement was born out of the charasmatic gifts manifested by heretics. We have the testimony of eyewitnesses from founders of the movement and numerous others that they wished to experience the gifts of these non-catholics and that they manifested them shortly after praying with and being prayed over by non-catholics as well reading heretical literature pregnant with ideas contrary to the Catholic faith.

Therefore the movement falls under a two fold condemnation according to St Vincent Ferrer:

1)Seeking out extraordinary spiritual gifts and consolations
2)Following or at the very least being heavily influenced by the false visions and ecstasies of heretics, things that can only come from the Devil

As regards your second statement it is clear that you are taking what St Vincent Ferrer said out of context, twisting it and interpreting it against the Saint’s intentions and teaching. He is stating that the searching for these gifts comes from Pride and presumption on god amongst many other negative things and therefore is the result of weak faith. Rather than building a person up in the faith it will tear them down and give them over to the power of Satan.

 

[vardaquinn]

The main gist of what St. Vincent Ferrar is saying is precisely in line what we’ve said ourselves and we don’t believe different. So you’re making a straw man argument. Aspects of this play into St. Vincent Ferrar’s own spirituality, I have seen other saints and spiritual writers say things differently about receiving consolations in prayer, nothing really contrary but a difference in matter of personal spirituality. In my reading I’ve found it recommended that we should take advantage of our consolations in prayer, and pay special attention what God may be trying to tell us (though practicing upmost discernment and caution, especially if they are more extraordinary like visions). As St. Vincent says, we shouldn’t despise extraordinary consolations. Sometimes God will use them. We see this in the lives of a good many saints, including St. Vincent. Or look at St. Faustina, St. Margaret Mary Aloque, or other saints God used extraordinary revelations to spread devotion. In any case, God does use consolations to draw us closer to Himself, though generally they are not extraordinary.

St. Vincent Ferrar isn’t speaking about the charismatic gifts here. He’s speaking about extraordinary consolations in prayer. There is a difference here I don’t think you’ve ever realized, and which I have highlighted many times with you. If he were to claim that extraordinary charismatic gifts should not be sought, then he would be openly contrary to Sacred Scripture. Sacred Scripture says to seek eagerly the greatest spiritual gifts, especially prophecy, that we may give an abundance of service to the Church. In any case, this was very much lived out by St. Vincent Ferrar himself!

t Vincent Ferrer is clear that this is wrong and dangerous. He is equally clear that these visions, gifts and consolations when not consistent with dogma must be totally shunned as the work of the devil and yet the charasmatic movement was born out of the charasmatic gifts manifested by heretics

This doesn’t follow logically. Simply because the gifts are manifested by heretics does not mean they are contrary to dogma. It is simply an element of true Christianity that is manifested in the Seperated Brethren. Not all their teaching or practices are necessarily heretical. Simply because something is coming from a non-Catholic, or even because it is coming from a saint, does not mean it automatically either right or wrong. I’m sure St. Thomas Aquinas would agree with me there.

jmj1984, I see where you have confusion, and I think that may be the reason why nearly all of your arguments have consisted of bare assertions and straw mans. We’re not saying that you should constantly be striving after extraordinary consolations. If individuals in the movement are saying such things, it is due to a lack of proper catechesis in the matter. We are not. The gifts and consolations are two different things.

2)Following or at the very least being heavily influenced by the false visions and ecstasies of heretics, things that can only come from the Devil

I don’t see how this works out logically. 1. God can give visions and and ecstasies to whomever He pleases. They are not automatically from the devil because it is happening to heretics. In scripture we see occassionally non-Jews receiving visions or revelations from God, for instance the Pharaoh of Egypt who had the dream about the plague. We also see in the Gospels people not associated with the Apostles casting out demons in Jesus’ name. And He says: do not rebuke them, if they’re not against you, you’re on the same side… 2. I would hardly say we’re being influenced by the visions and ecstasies of heretics… our influence from Pentecostals come mostly from their correct and true understanding that the gifts are for today, still occur, and are meant to be used. This is not contrary to Church teaching, as we’ve shown you.

 

[jmj1984]

The main gist of what St. Vincent Ferrar is saying is precisely in line what we’ve said ourselves and we don’t believe different. So you’re making a straw man argument. Aspects of this play into St. Vincent Ferrar’s own spirituality, I have seen other saints and spiritual writers say things differently about receiving consolations in prayer, nothing really contrary but a difference in matter of personal spirituality. In my reading I’ve found it recommended that we should take advantage of our consolations in prayer, and pay special attention what God may be trying to tell us (though practicing upmost discernment and caution, especially if they are more extraordinary like visions). As St. Vincent says, we shouldn’t despise extraordinary consolations. Sometimes God will use them. We see this in the lives of a good many saints, including St. Vincent. Or look at St. Faustina, St. Margaret Mary Aloque, or other saints God used extraordinary revelations to spread devotion. In any case, God does use consolations to draw us closer to Himself, though generally they are not extraordinary.

St. Vincent Ferrar isn’t speaking about the charismatic gifts here. He’s speaking about extraordinary consolations in prayer. There is a difference here I don’t think you’ve ever realized, and which I have highlighted many times with you. If he were to claim that extraordinary charismatic gifts should not be sought, then he would be openly contrary to Sacred Scripture. Sacred Scripture says to seek eagerly the greatest spiritual gifts, especially prophecy, that we may give an abundance of service to the Church. In any case, this was very much lived out by St. Vincent Ferrar himself!

This doesn’t follow logically. Simply because the gifts are manifested by heretics does not mean they are contrary to dogma. It is simply an element of true Christianity that is manifested in the Seperated Brethren. Not all their teaching or practices are necessarily heretical. Simply because something is coming from a non-Catholic, or even because it is coming from a saint, does not mean it automatically either right or wrong. I’m sure St. Thomas Aquinas would agree with me there.

jmj1984, I see where you have confusion, and I think that may be the reason why nearly all of your arguments have consisted of bare assertions and straw mans. We’re not saying that you should constantly be striving after extraordinary consolations. If individuals in the movement are saying such things, it is due to a lack of proper catechesis in the matter. We are not. The gifts and consolations are two different things.

I don’t see how this works out logically. 1. God can give visions and and ecstasies to whomever He pleases. They are not automatically from the devil because it is happening to heretics. In scripture we see occassionally non-Jews receiving visions or revelations from God, for instance the Pharaoh of Egypt who had the dream about the plague. We also see in the Gospels people not associated with the Apostles casting out demons in Jesus’ name. And He says: do not rebuke them, if they’re not against you, you’re on the same side… 2. I would hardly say we’re being influenced by the visions and ecstasies of heretics… our influence from Pentecostals come mostly from their correct and true understanding that the gifts are for today, still occur, and are meant to be used. This is not contrary to Church teaching, as we’ve shown you.

Vardaquin I fail to see the point of this post? You fail to address St Vincent Ferrers points, misinterpret his teaching and then plain misunderstand things. Speaking in tongues, prophecy and such forth are clearly extraordinary consolations, to claim otherwise is dishonest. As such St Vincent Ferrer is addressing them.

Secondly, seeing as the retreatants who ‘founded’ in a way the movement read two books pregant with heresy and adopted many of the practices of heretics yes their ‘gifts’ are suspect. You even contradict yourself by saying

our influence from Pentecostals come mostly from their correct and true understanding that the gifts are for today, still occur, and are meant to be used

and yet claiming that you are not influenced by them

If the movement was orthodox it would not need to look at heretics and read their books and their methods of prayer and pray with them and be prayed over them, rather it would look at the church’s long mystical tradition and be influenced by that.

 

[Mike30]

I think it is hard for people who have not experienced it to understand it. Something like a gouty toe. If a person has never suffered from gout, it is hard to appreciate.

For me, I left because I was looking for authentic Christianity. My family went to Mass every Sunday, Confession every Sat. and some of us kids went to Catholic school. I rarely met anyone who seemed to live what I heard being preached or read in the Scriptures. To me it seemed like a form of godliness, without the power thereof.

I also had a great hunger for the Word of God, and there were no Catholic Bible studies. I was easy prey for the Baptists who carried their bibles to school. They seemed to live what they said they believed, and were willing to suffer persecution for it.

Odd that someone who knew and believed the history of the Church would leave as they were seeking “authentic” Christianity from those whose ancestors abandoned the true faith. I don’t understand it.

As I recall, thousands, maybe millions of Catholics suffered persecution and death also. It was not and is not particular to the protestants throughout history.

Bible studies while good and normally conducted with good intentions can also do far more harm than good to the faithful who fall into the protestant trap of trying to interpret scripture as they see it, as I have seen many Catholics doing these days.

In any event I am glad that you have returned to the true Church.

 

[vardaquinn]

Speaking in tongues, prophecy and such forth are clearly extraordinary consolations, to claim otherwise is dishonest.

No, they are not. I am right then, this is where you’ve confused things. No, they are not extraordinary consolations. Prophecy and tongues, first of all, we are explicitly told to seek in Scripture. Explicitly, at least for prophecy, “Strive eagerly to prophesy” and implicitly for “I would like all of you to speak in tongues” (among other places). This is for many good reasons. I should amend this, however. We’re not so much seeking the gifts - often we have received them already in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation, but rather the use of the gifts. Often, the use of the gifts must be sought, so that your will is in full conformity to the Holy Spirit’s. He will never force anyone to prophesy, or speak in tongues.

Consolations we are told, by nearly every saintly spiritual writer I can think of, not to seek. For may good reasons. Extraordinary consolations are generally meant to be rare, and usually for the use of weaker souls.

Charisms are given for the upbuilding of the Church, the edification of others (ex. Our Lord gives you a prophecy for someone, for his own edification). Or prayer tongues, for personal edification, a way of building up the temple of God within you and surrendering to the working of the Holy Spirit. Consolations may or may not accompany these. I almost never experience consolations or sensational phenomena while praying in tongues, though I sometimes have. I feel generally spiritually “dry” when I pray in tongues.

Charisms are meant to be commonplace, and are part of the ordinary Christian life, and something essential. Consolations aren’t. If they happen, great. If they don’t, oh well. Nobody should go around seeking to have these. Everybody should go around “seeking to have an abundance of gifts for the upbuilding of the Church”.

This is a crucial point in the widespread confusion about the charisms. They are not extraordinary consolations. You’re confusing two distinctly different things. In any case, you are making another bare assertion. You claim that tongues and prophecy are extraordinary consolations, and thus should not be sought (a statement openly contrary to Scripture). But you provide no evidence for the claim that extraordinary consolations and extraordinary charisms are one and the same thing.

Secondly, seeing as the retreatants who ‘founded’ in a way the movement read two books pregant with heresy and adopted many of the practices of heretics yes their ‘gifts’ are suspect.

1. Don’t use such ridiculous terminology “pregnant with heresy” to play the alarmist. It simply sounds reactionist.
2. You have never provided any evidence that the two books are pregnant with heresy, and even if there are many heretical things about them, that doesn’t mean there are key important truths that are contained.
3. Yes it does make it suspect. However, the practices of the heretics we adopted were practices of the early Church, and which they took from the Church.

and yet claiming that you are not influenced by them

We are influenced by them. Yes. Not by their heterodoxy, but their orthodoxy. They have called attention to something essential in the Church that has been neglected.

If the movement was orthodox it would not need to look at heretics and read their books and their methods of prayer and pray with them and be prayed over them, rather it would look at the church’s long mystical tradition and be influenced by that.

That doesn’t necessarily follow, since the methods of prayer and practices of the heretics come from the Church’s long mystical tradition, as we have shown you. But the unfortunate fact is, an aspect of our tradition as a ‘people of Pentecost’ has been neglected. It has not been absent, but simply unused. The Church has always been complete, with all her parts. But some of those parts have, at times, not been put into use. The nose needs to be put to the grindstone once more.