Defending the Holy Spirit, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement

[jmj1984]

No, they are not. I am right then, this is where you’ve confused things. No, they are not extraordinary consolations. Prophecy and tongues, first of all, we are explicitly told to seek in Scripture. Explicitly, at least for prophecy, “Strive eagerly to prophesy” and implicitly for “I would like all of you to speak in tongues” (among other places).

So you are claiming tongues and prophecy arent extraordinary consolations? Thats self evidently absurd, they are extraordinary consolations, they are extraordinary gifts to claim otherwise is simply dishonest. They are clearly not ordinary as for example faith, hope or charity which though supernatural all baptised people should possess and they do console as they are a particular and rare gift from God. Or do you claim that all people have these gifts and that actually there is nothing special or rare about them?

Consolations we are told, by nearly every saintly spiritual writer I can think of, not to seek. For may good reasons. Extraordinary consolations are generally meant to be rare, and usually for the use of weaker souls.

Charisms are given for the upbuilding of the Church, the edification of others (ex. Our Lord gives you a prophecy for someone, for his own edification). Or prayer tongues, for personal edification, a way of building up the temple of God within you and surrendering to the working of the Holy Spirit. Consolations may or may not accompany these. I almost never experience consolations or sensational phenomena while praying in tongues, though I sometimes have. I feel generally spiritually “dry” when I pray in tongues.

Speaking in tongues is sensational by its very nature. As is prophecy! I cannot believe we are actually going to have an argument about this! It is not ordinary, it will attract attention and curiosity, it is rare and something special, it is therefore sensational. Spiritual dryness does not mean something is not a consolation. St Maria Faustina, St Margaret Mary Alcoque and Sister Josefa Menendez all experienced spiritual dryness whilst receiving extraordinary visions of Our Lord, Our Lady and the saints as well as other mystical experiences. However no one would deny that they were receiving consolations

As for your claim that they are for weaker souls, do you realise the illogic in this statement? Weaker souls are all the more likely to be led astray by them and unable to discern them properly, why then would Our Lord use such a dangerous method with weaker souls? The tradition of the church is clear that it is rather the stronger souls who receive these consolations or would you claim any of the Church’s great mystics were ‘weak souls’?

Charisms are meant to be commonplace, and are part of the ordinary Christian life, and something essential. Consolations aren’t. If they happen, great. If they don’t, oh well. Nobody should go around seeking to have these. Everybody should go around “seeking to have an abundance of gifts for the upbuilding of the Church”.

Except that you arbitrarily reduce charisms to only the charasmatic gifts without any authority for doing so.

This is a crucial point in the widespread confusion about the charisms. They are not extraordinary consolations. You’re confusing two distinctly different things. In any case, you are making another bare assertion. You claim that tongues and prophecy are extraordinary consolations, and thus should not be sought (a statement openly contrary to Scripture). But you provide no evidence for the claim that extraordinary consolations and extraordinary charisms are one and the same thing.

On what basis do you argue they are not extraordinary consolations? Does anyone say this? Do they actually think they are commonplace, ordinary and not consoling?

1. Don’t use such ridiculous terminology “pregnant with heresy” to play the alarmist. It simply sounds reactionist.
2. You have never provided any evidence that the two books are pregnant with heresy, and even if there are many heretical things about them, that doesn’t mean there are key important truths that are contained.
3. Yes it does make it suspect. However, the practices of the heretics we adopted were practices of the early Church, and which they took from the Church.

1. I used the appropriate terminology, it may not be to your personal taste but that is not the point
   2)Have you read those books? Have you even seen their titles?
   3)A claim you cannot prove and if so why derive them from heretics? Why not follow the church’s mystics? Why even attend prayer meetings and sermons from and with heretics and be prayed over by them?

We are influenced by them. Yes. Not by their heterodoxy, but their orthodoxy. They have called attention to something essential in the Church that has been neglected.

So you draw water from a poisoned well? You had no need to be influenced by them, the church has dozens of mystics but the movement chose instead to follow and be influenced by heretics, why? Further you make the unsubstantiated, rash and scandalous to catholic ears claim that the church has negelected something for something like 1,500 years.

That doesn’t necessarily follow, since the methods of prayer and practices of the heretics come from the Church’s long mystical tradition, as we have shown you. But the unfortunate fact is, an aspect of our tradition as a ‘people of Pentecost’ has been neglected. It has not been absent, but simply unused. The Church has always been complete, with all her parts. But some of those parts have, at times, not been put into use. The nose needs to be put to the grindstone once more.

See what I wrote above

 

[guanophore]

Accept of course that the saint says not to judge ONLY when these visions and ecstasies say nothing contrary to Dogma and yet as others have said again and again and as has yet to be refuted there are numerous dogmas or beliefs inherent to the charasmatic movement which are contrary to Dogma.

Actually, what you have done, jmj, is assert that there are such things as “doctrines” of the renewal. When asked to define these, or to point to where they can be researched, you were unable to answer. That is because there ARE NO doctrines and dogmas “of the CCR” The CCR is Catholic,and espouses Catholic Doctrine, Dogma, and magesterial instruction. All you have been able to produce are examples of people who are disobedient to the faith. It is like saying that Jesus taught nothing valid because Judas did not practice what Jesus preached.

We are all in agreement here about abuses of the gifts.But you deny that any authentic practices can be found within the CCR. In taking this position, you oppose the magesterium of the Church.

Ultimately the point of my post was not to persuade you differently, because your mind is so wrapped up in the charasmatic movement that it moulds facts to suit its opinions rather than changing its opinions according to the facts, rather it was to show a clear condemnation of the inherent and explicit beliefs of the Charasmatic movement from a saint who was gifted to be a channel through which God performed numerous miracles.

I know, and I wanted to post agreement with what was written because your perception of the CCR is grossly judgemental and inaccurate. It is important to affirm these wise directions from the saints, and to show that the CCR is in agreeement with them. The only disparity is what is in your mind, because of the ideas you have about the CCR.

 

[guanophore]

Odd that someone who knew and believed the history of the Church would leave as they were seeking “authentic” Christianity from those whose ancestors abandoned the true faith. I don’t understand it.

I think most people that know the faith and choose to abandon it do so for moral reasons, and most of those, starting from motivations below the waist.

I did not mean to give the impression that I was at all knowledgeable about the faith, or the history of the Church. On the contrary, I knew very litte. I was a poorly catechized Catholic who did not investigate the faith I chose to abandon.

Bible studies while good and normally conducted with good intentions can also do far more harm than good to the faithful who fall into the protestant trap of trying to interpret scripture as they see it, as I have seen many Catholics doing these days.

In any event I am glad that you have returned to the true Church.

Yes, I have attended many “good intention” bible studies with plenty of bad theology. I also spent 3 years in a Protestant Seminary. God used the historical theology course to bring me back to the faith into which I was baptized. I learned that the Church founded by Christ was Catholic. God can draw straight with crooked lines.

 

[vardaquinn]

So you are claiming tongues and prophecy arent extraordinary consolations?

Yes, that is exactly what I’m claiming. It is also the claim of the Church. Extraordinary gifts, yes. That doesn’t mean necessarily that they’re rare, though they have been rare at times in the Church’s history. Originally they weren’t so rare, and they are becoming far less rare today. They are clearly for the ordinary daily life of the Church, that is affirmed in the documents. There is something special about them, sometimes rare (not in the case of prayer tongues, but for instance in the case of evangelizing in unknown languages, or great miracles). Not all people have all the gifts, but we should seek to have an abundance of them for the upbuilding of the Church.

Speaking in tongues is sensational by its very nature. As is prophecy!

Yes, but I experience no “sensation” or feeling, beyond that I don’t control what words I’m saying. Though I sometimes do.

I cannot believe we are actually going to have an argument about this! It is not ordinary, it will attract attention and curiosity, it is rare and something special, it is therefore sensational.

I can’t believe you haven’t heard what we’ve been saying the whole time. It’s MEANT to be normal, that exactly what we (plus the bishops and Popes) are saying about this. It’s meant to attract attention and curiosity in a way - it’s a manifestation of the Spirit! But even so, you’re making a bare assertion here.

Except that you arbitrarily reduce charisms to only the charasmatic gifts without any authority for doing so.

1 Cor 12. Read the list. Read what the Catholic Encylopedia says: newadvent.org/cathen/03588e.htm This isn’t exhaustive, different people have added to the list (various Church Fathers, St. Thomas Aquinas. We also add papal infallibility to that list). But it’s obviously a basic set of gifts that are common place. I have infallible authority here.

On what basis do you argue they are not extraordinary consolations? Does anyone say this? Do they actually think they are commonplace, ordinary and not consoling?

Extraordinary consolations are for the individual, not for the community. They are also random, we have no control over when they happen or not. As opposed to tongues. I can decide when to pray in tongues or not. It’s a totally different matter, but the two are so closely confused. Whether or not they bring consolation is not essential. That’s not their purpose. They bring grace.

1. I used the appropriate terminology, it may not be to your personal taste but that is not the point
   2)Have you read those books? Have you even seen their titles?
   3)A claim you cannot prove and if so why derive them from heretics? Why not follow the church’s mystics? Why even attend prayer meetings and sermons from and with heretics and be prayed over by them?

1. No, you’re just trying to add a reactionist weight to your words. Fundamentalists do it all the time.
2. The Cross and the Switchblade, They Speak With Other Tongues… haven’t read them personally, but the titles are fine. The Cross and the Switchblade at least is more an account of true events that happened in New York with the gangs.
3. We did prove it. Accounts even just in Scripture are more than enough to prove it, but we’ve thrown in many other examples. So many times. jmj, please, this is getting so repetitive.

So you draw water from a poisoned well? You had no need to be influenced by them, the church has dozens of mystics but the movement chose instead to follow and be influenced by heretics, why? Further you make the unsubstantiated, rash and scandalous to catholic ears claim that the church has negelected something for something like 1,500 years.

Nice try. No, you misunderstand this. The common understanding, which is wrong, is that the gifts were meant to be only for certain individuals. It went hand in hand with the heretical view point prevalent among many Catholics, which V2 addressed, that only some we called to live lives of extraordinary holiness. The heretics here showed us: no, this is meant for now, this still happens now, and it’s for everyone. Mystics from hundreds of years ago didn’t show that. Everyone just assumed “well, they were really holy, so…”. Yes, it has neglected something. John Paul II has made that claim as well, as has Pope Benedict. I’ve also shown you quotes from St. John Chrysostom. We’ve neglected something very important here. There are plenty of things the Church has neglected. Nobody would argue that the Church is comprised of perfect individuals. At times, the Church is in need of being reminded and renewal. Just look at St. Francis of Assisi! He was told by God to rebuild the Church! It is scandalous!

 

[vardaquinn]

As for your claim that they are for weaker souls, do you realise the illogic in this statement? Weaker souls are all the more likely to be led astray by them and unable to discern them properly, why then would Our Lord use such a dangerous method with weaker souls? The tradition of the church is clear that it is rather the stronger souls who receive these consolations or would you claim any of the Church’s great mystics were ‘weak souls’?

Absolutely not, this is totally backwards. St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Therese of Lisieux, St. Alphonsus Ligouri, St. Francis de Sales, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Louis de Montfort, St. Josemaria Escriva… all of these people will tell you that extraordinary consolations are often for more immature souls, with a weaker faith, that need extra help. Look at the Doubting Thomas story. He needed extra help to believe, but blessed are those who believe without seeing. Pure faith is more important. Our Lord will use feelings, consolations, sensible devotions to draw people to Him initially. Often then He will discontinue these, often there will be a dark night of the soul detaching the soul from all sensible devotions, purifying the will. People with a weaker faith need things like visions and ecstasies and sensible consolations and mystical phenomena, people with a stronger faith have no need. Look at St. Therese. She received very very little of this, and her life is an example of astounding faith even though she underwent so many horrible trials even to doubt God’s existence. St. Bernadette is another great example there, in her later years. Sometimes stronger souls may also receive them, but often after many trials, in which they begin a sort of heaven on earth after a spiritual marriage between the soul and God (to which everyone is called in this life), but they are often on a different level. I consider myself to be a weaker soul, and God has used many consolations to draw me into a relationship with Him. Then He has weaned me off them, so that I can pray by faith. I know this as the case with many people. It is something that is also very Scriptural, see St. Francis de Sales’ Mystical Explanation of the Canticle of Canticles, or see the book of Jeremiah, in which he claims “you duped me o God!”.

Yes, some of the saints have been weak souls. God’s power is made perfect in weakness. It is when I am weak, then I am strong. It is not about personal merit or strength or self-sufficiency. But the very opposite. Without Him we can do nothing. We are all very weak, but some of us have been stronger than others.

You’re errors and confusions here are common, but they are calling into question the universal call to sanctity and the mystical life. We are all supposed to be mystics you know (that does not, does not, does not mean extraordinary mystical phenomena). We are all called to have just as much, and more, of a union with God as any of the great mystics.

 

[guanophore]

The problem here is that you are imposing your beliefs on the text. It is completely irrelevant that you think these gifts are usual,

I have not imposed my beliefs on the text, jmj. But you are right. The fact that I beleive these gifts to be part of the normal Christian life is irrelevant. The only perspective of value on this is that of the Church, which teaches that they are. This is well summarized in the article from the Catholic Encyclopedia that Varda posted above.

St Vincent Ferrer is not and it is him I am quoting and him you are misquoting. He does not believe the gifts are usual and further does not believe one should seek them. That is undeniable and does not require either your opinion or mine.

Clearly you are confused, jmj. St. Vincent is not referring to the Charismatic Gifts in his treatise.

What is also a fact is that there is a veritable plethora of sources both catholic, non-catholic and charasmatic which testify that the Catholic Charasmatic movement was born out of a desire to experience the gifts which non-catholic charasmatics possessed and that shortly after its birth these gifts began to manifest.

No, jmj, there is not. Even the sources you chose yourself and posted on this thread all testify that the Catholics were seeking a closer walk with God that was filled with the life giving power they read about in the Scripture. They did not go seeking gifts, but the Giver.

It is equally undeniable that these gifts have become a hallmark of the movement and have attracted many to the movement.

It seems to me, at least from this thread, that more people are repelled than attracted.

I am sure there are some people like Simon Magus, whose hearts are not right with God, and seek for the wrong reasons, as St. Vincent well describes. However, most of the people who have been involved for 30+ years now were, an dstill are, seeking sanctity and the fullness of God’s plan for themselves. It seems that you just can’t imagine that Catholics would desire the fullness of life in Christ, and want to live an empowered spiritual life as we read about in the book of Acts. Perhaps you are not interested in such things, but why is it so inconceivable to think that others might be?

 

[guanophore]

The main gist of what St. Vincent Ferrar is saying is precisely in line what we’ve said ourselves and we don’t believe different. So you’re making a straw man argument.

jmj does contradict himself frequently, and clearly is confused about the nature of the spiritual phenomena we are discussing. You are right, we are in agreement with St. Vincent. What is not in agreement is jmj’s distorted perceptions of the CCR.

   As St. Vincent says, we shouldn't despise extraordinary consolations. Sometimes God will use them. We see this in the lives of a good many saints, including St. Vincent. Or look at St. Faustina, St. Margaret Mary Aloque, or other saints God used extraordinary revelations to spread devotion. In any case, God does use consolations to draw us closer to Himself, though generally they are not extraordinary.

St. Teresa of Avila describes a number of extraordinary consolations, and also advises against seeking them. She takes this same approach, though, which is to receive everything from God with gratitude.

St. Vincent Ferrar isn’t speaking about the charismatic gifts here. He’s speaking about extraordinary consolations in prayer. There is a difference here I don’t think you’ve ever realized, and which I have highlighted many times with you. If he were to claim that extraordinary charismatic gifts should not be sought, then he would be openly contrary to Sacred Scripture. Sacred Scripture says to seek eagerly the greatest spiritual gifts, especially prophecy, that we may give an abundance of service to the Church. In any case, this was very much lived out by St. Vincent Ferrar himself!

It does not seem that jmj is able to distinguish between the two types. Consolations describe a person’s state or relation with God, where the charismata are given for service to and for the Church. I understand that consolations are given sometimes when a person is UNABLE to engage in service. St. Bernadette was very ill, and unable to do any work of ministry, but received many consolations.

 This doesn't follow logically. Simply because the gifts are manifested by heretics does not mean they are contrary to dogma.

While I agree with your point, please do not feed into this erroneous characterization of our seprarated brethren!

The gifts and consolations are two different things.

I think this point has been completly lost on jmj. In the zeal to discredit the movement, grasping at straws is clear.

I don’t see how this works out logically. 1. God can give visions and and ecstasies to whomever He pleases. They are not automatically from the devil because it is happening to heretics. In scripture we see occassionally non-Jews receiving visions or revelations from God

I just happened to be reading Daniel, where God revealed to the Pagan King what He was about to do.

…not associated with the Apostles casting out demons in Jesus’ name. And He says: do not rebuke them, if they’re not against you, you’re on the same side…

Jesus also said they would not soon speak evil of Him. But jmj disregards our Lord’s instruction, calling those who are seeking the Holy Spirit under demonic influence. This is very near to blasphemy against the HS (saying the works of the HS are from the devil).

1. I would hardly say we’re being influenced by the visions and ecstasies of heretics… our influence from Pentecostals come mostly from their correct and true understanding that the gifts are for today, still occur, and are meant to be used. This is not contrary to Church teaching, as we’ve shown you.

I would be interested to see a vision or ecstasy of a heretic produced here by jmj. I have tried to think of one, and nothing comes to mind. I think like the “doctrines of the CCR”, it is just another product of jmj’s imagination.

 

[jmj1984]

Actually, what you have done, jmj, is assert that there are such things as “doctrines” of the renewal. When asked to define these, or to point to where they can be researched, you were unable to answer. That is because there ARE NO doctrines and dogmas “of the CCR” The CCR is Catholic,and espouses Catholic Doctrine, Dogma, and magesterial instruction. All you have been able to produce are examples of people who are disobedient to the faith. It is like saying that Jesus taught nothing valid because Judas did not practice what Jesus preached.

We are all in agreement here about abuses of the gifts.But you deny that any authentic practices can be found within the CCR. In taking this position, you oppose the magesterium of the Church.

I know, and I wanted to post agreement with what was written because your perception of the CCR is grossly judgemental and inaccurate. It is important to affirm these wise directions from the saints, and to show that the CCR is in agreeement with them. The only disparity is what is in your mind, because of the ideas you have about the CCR.

Guanaphore you are either extremely ignorant of your own movement or simply dishonest. I and others have posted numerous sources including from founders of the movement who were there at its birth to demonstrate the common beliefs of charasmatics you on the other hand have claimed to have a different understanding of things so obvious it is as absurd to claim to have a different understanding of a door painted black and claim it is white.

 

[jmj1984]

Yes, that is exactly what I’m claiming. It is also the claim of the Church. Extraordinary gifts, yes. That doesn’t mean necessarily that they’re rare, though they have been rare at times in the Church’s history. Originally they weren’t so rare, and they are becoming far less rare today. They are clearly for the ordinary daily life of the Church, that is affirmed in the documents. There is something special about them, sometimes rare (not in the case of prayer tongues, but for instance in the case of evangelizing in unknown languages, or great miracles). Not all people have all the gifts, but we should seek to have an abundance of them for the upbuilding of the Church.

A claim you have been unable to prove, there is no church document that states this. The only way you even claim to get proof for this is to claim that ‘charisms’ ONLY means the charasmatic gifts, something which again is an unsubstantiated claim.

Yes, but I experience no “sensation” or feeling, beyond that I don’t control what words I’m saying. Though I sometimes do.

This is irrelevant. They meet the criteria of extraordinary consolations and sensational occurences and thus are. Often the saints would experience extreme spiritual dryness or even nothing when receiving extraordinary consolations but no one would claim they werent extraordinary consolations.

I can’t believe you haven’t heard what we’ve been saying the whole time. It’s MEANT to be normal, that exactly what we (plus the bishops and Popes) are saying about this. It’s meant to attract attention and curiosity in a way - it’s a manifestation of the Spirit! But even so, you’re making a bare assertion here.

Yet another unsubstantiated claim.

1 Cor 12. Read the list. Read what the Catholic Encylopedia says: newadvent.org/cathen/03588e.htm This isn’t exhaustive, different people have added to the list (various Church Fathers, St. Thomas Aquinas. We also add papal infallibility to that list). But it’s obviously a basic set of gifts that are common place. I have infallible authority here.

An unsubstantiated and absurd claim.

Extraordinary consolations are for the individual, not for the community. They are also random, we have no control over when they happen or not. As opposed to tongues. I can decide when to pray in tongues or not. It’s a totally different matter, but the two are so closely confused. Whether or not they bring consolation is not essential. That’s not their purpose. They bring grace.

Firstly, thats plain false, the visions of St Margaret Mary Alcoque, St Maria Faustina, Sr Josefa Fernendez, St Theresa of Avila and so on were clearly not just for them but no one would deny they were extraordinary consolations. And as for your view of God and his gifts as some sort of tap which you can turn on and off well all I’m going to say on that regard is oh dear…

1. No, you’re just trying to add a reactionist weight to your words. Fundamentalists do it all the time.
2. The Cross and the Switchblade, They Speak With Other Tongues… haven’t read them personally, but the titles are fine. The Cross and the Switchblade at least is more an account of true events that happened in New York with the gangs.
3. We did prove it. Accounts even just in Scripture are more than enough to prove it, but we’ve thrown in many other examples. So many times. jmj, please, this is getting so repetitive.

1)No, seeing as Popes and saints have used similar words to condemn movements
2)Then you’re incapabale of recognising truth or facts ‘They speak in tongues’ I wonder which heterodox dogmas will be in their…
3)Nope you didnt

Nice try. No, you misunderstand this. The common understanding, which is wrong, is that the gifts were meant to be only for certain individuals. It went hand in hand with the heretical view point prevalent among many Catholics, which V2 addressed, that only some we called to live lives of extraordinary holiness. The heretics here showed us: no, this is meant for now, this still happens now, and it’s for everyone. Mystics from hundreds of years ago didn’t show that. Everyone just assumed “well, they were really holy, so…”. Yes, it has neglected something. John Paul II has made that claim as well, as has Pope Benedict. I’ve also shown you quotes from St. John Chrysostom. We’ve neglected something very important here. There are plenty of things the Church has neglected. Nobody would argue that the Church is comprised of perfect individuals. At times, the Church is in need of being reminded and renewal. Just look at St. Francis of Assisi! He was told by God to rebuild the Church! It is scandalous!

Really so now The Church has been wrong for thousands of years? And most of the church has been heretical? Sorry brother its not the church thats heretical its you. Had poverty completely disappered in the Church? No. Had these ‘gifts’ completely disappeared and certainly were not exercised in the way they are today? Yes. So the example you gave doesnt work

 

[jmj1984]

Absolutely not, this is totally backwards. St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Therese of Lisieux, St. Alphonsus Ligouri, St. Francis de Sales, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Louis de Montfort, St. Josemaria Escriva… all of these people will tell you that extraordinary consolations are often for more immature souls, with a weaker faith, that need extra help. Look at the Doubting Thomas story. He needed extra help to believe, but blessed are those who believe without seeing. Pure faith is more important. Our Lord will use feelings, consolations, sensible devotions to draw people to Him initially. Often then He will discontinue these, often there will be a dark night of the soul detaching the soul from all sensible devotions, purifying the will. People with a weaker faith need things like visions and ecstasies and sensible consolations and mystical phenomena, people with a stronger faith have no need. Look at St. Therese. She received very very little of this, and her life is an example of astounding faith even though she underwent so many horrible trials even to doubt God’s existence. St. Bernadette is another great example there, in her later years. Sometimes stronger souls may also receive them, but often after many trials, in which they begin a sort of heaven on earth after a spiritual marriage between the soul and God (to which everyone is called in this life), but they are often on a different level. I consider myself to be a weaker soul, and God has used many consolations to draw me into a relationship with Him. Then He has weaned me off them, so that I can pray by faith. I know this as the case with many people. It is something that is also very Scriptural, see St. Francis de Sales’ Mystical Explanation of the Canticle of Canticles, or see the book of Jeremiah, in which he claims “you duped me o God!”.

Yes, some of the saints have been weak souls. God’s power is made perfect in weakness. It is when I am weak, then I am strong. It is not about personal merit or strength or self-sufficiency. But the very opposite. Without Him we can do nothing. We are all very weak, but some of us have been stronger than others.

You’re errors and confusions here are common, but they are calling into question the universal call to sanctity and the mystical life. We are all supposed to be mystics you know (that does not, does not, does not mean extraordinary mystical phenomena). We are all called to have just as much, and more, of a union with God as any of the great mystics.

And yet I’ve read these works and seen nothing of this These consolations will inevitably lead weaker souls astray

 

[jmj1984]

guanophore:

I have not imposed my beliefs on the text, jmj. But you are right. The fact that I beleive these gifts to be part of the normal Christian life is irrelevant. The only perspective of value on this is that of the Church, which teaches that they are. This is well summarized in the article from the Catholic Encyclopedia that Varda posted above.

Clearly you are confused, jmj. St. Vincent is not referring to the Charismatic Gifts in his treatise.

Clearly you are confused, he is referring to extraordinary consolations and gifts which the so called charasmatic gifts most definitely are.

guanophore:

No, jmj, there is not. Even the sources you chose yourself and posted on this thread all testify that the Catholics were seeking a closer walk with God that was filled with the life giving power they read about in the Scripture. They did not go seeking gifts, but the Giver.

This is dishonest, those present at the founding of the movement have admitted that they were seeking these gifts and that these gifts were what made them feel closer to God.

guanophore:

It seems to me, at least from this thread, that more people are repelled than attracted.

I am sure there are some people like Simon Magus, whose hearts are not right with God, and seek for the wrong reasons, as St. Vincent well describes. However, most of the people who have been involved for 30+ years now were, an dstill are, seeking sanctity and the fullness of God’s plan for themselves. It seems that you just can’t imagine that Catholics would desire the fullness of life in Christ, and want to live an empowered spiritual life as we read about in the book of Acts. Perhaps you are not interested in such things, but why is it so inconceivable to think that others might be?

Yeah, No. As the testimony of someone present at the birth of the movement and numerous others testify. Heresy will always attract souls for that is the devils work, but I am not interested in it.

 

[jmj1984]

jmj does contradict himself frequently, and clearly is confused about the nature of the spiritual phenomena we are discussing. You are right, we are in agreement with St. Vincent. What is not in agreement is jmj’s distorted perceptions of the CCR.

St. Teresa of Avila describes a number of extraordinary consolations, and also advises against seeking them. She takes this same approach, though, which is to receive everything from God with gratitude.

It does not seem that jmj is able to distinguish between the two types. Consolations describe a person’s state or relation with God, where the charismata are given for service to and for the Church. I understand that consolations are given sometimes when a person is UNABLE to engage in service. St. Bernadette was very ill, and unable to do any work of ministry, but received many consolations.

While I agree with your point, please do not feed into this erroneous characterization of our seprarated brethren!

I think this point has been completly lost on jmj. In the zeal to discredit the movement, grasping at straws is clear.

I just happened to be reading Daniel, where God revealed to the Pagan King what He was about to do.

Jesus also said they would not soon speak evil of Him. But jmj disregards our Lord’s instruction, calling those who are seeking the Holy Spirit under demonic influence. This is very near to blasphemy against the HS (saying the works of the HS are from the devil).

I would be interested to see a vision or ecstasy of a heretic produced here by jmj. I have tried to think of one, and nothing comes to mind. I think like the “doctrines of the CCR”, it is just another product of jmj’s imagination.

What is clear to me is that your wind is long lost in heretical views of the church and you cannot distinguish the difference betwee truth and falsehood. Now we have the novelty of attacking me via a commentary on someone elses posts, most amusing but ultimately a complete waste of time and a further admission of the weakness of your own position.

 

[guanophore]

Guanaphore you are either extremely ignorant of your own movement or simply dishonest. I and others have posted numerous sources including from founders of the movement who were there at its birth to demonstrate the common beliefs of charasmatics you on the other hand have claimed to have a different understanding of things so obvious it is as absurd to claim to have a different understanding of a door painted black and claim it is white.

I understand how it seems this way to you, jmj. Each person’s perceptions are colored by their experiences and education, or lack thereof. When I read the prayers and speeches of the Popes, I read them from the perspective that these are the shepherds that God has placed over me to guide me. Because I read with these “lenses” on, I accept their prayers and instruction as from the Lord. Clearly, you read them differently. You have stated that you disagree with the Popes, and seem to believe they are cooperating with an effort of the devil to infoltrate the House of God.

I will post here for all those who may be reading this thread who are more open minded the comments you refererenced in post # 383

In Luke 11 Jesus says, “Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you. If you who are evil know how to give your children good things HOW MUCH MORE will the Heavenly Father GIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT to those who ASK HIM.” Here is an unfailing principle: From the first Pentecost on, the Holy Spirit has always come in response to fervent prayer… to prayer that is hungry and thirsty for more of God…to prayer that asks, seeks, and knocks. I describe in my book, As By A New Pentecost, how the entire twentieth century was dedicated to the Holy Spirit in a special way. Blessed Elena Guerra, at the turn of the twentieth century, urged Pope Leo XIII to call the entire Church to pray more fervently to the Holy Spirit…to be, as it were, a permanent Cenacle of prayer. And of course you remember the prayer to the Spirit we prayed for the Second Vatican Council: “Divine Spirit, renew Your wonders in this our day as by a new Pentecost.” …In the Spring of 1966, two Duquesne University professors were ASKING, SEEKING, and KNOCKING. They had pledged themselves to pray daily for a greater outpouring of the Holy Spirit in their lives using the beautiful Sequence Hymn of Pentecost…

A few days before the retreat, I knelt in my room and prayed, “Lord, I believe I’ve already received your Spirit in Baptism and Confirmation. But if it’s possible for your Spirit to be more at work in my life than He’s been up until now, I WANT IT!”…

Here was someone who really seemed to know Jesus intimately and personally! She knew the power of the Holy Spirit like the Apostles did. I knew I wanted what she had and I wrote in my notes, “Jesus, be real for me.”

When I read this account, I read the words of a committed Catholic desiriing to walk in all the fullness that God has prepared for her. For some reason, when you read it you perceive someone who is chasing after the devil’s work.

I do agree with you that many of our separated brethern, whom you erroneously label “heretics” also have this same attitude - they seek, pray, knock, ask and desire that God work in their lives as He did in the days of the Apostles.

 

[jmj1984]

I understand how it seems this way to you, jmj. Each person’s perceptions are colored by their experiences and education, or lack thereof. When I read the prayers and speeches of the Popes, I read them from the perspective that these are the shepherds that God has placed over me to guide me. Because I read with these “lenses” on, I accept their prayers and instruction as from the Lord. Clearly, you read them differently. You have stated that you disagree with the Popes, and seem to believe they are cooperating with an effort of the devil to infoltrate the House of God.

I will post here for all those who may be reading this thread who are more open minded the comments you refererenced in post # 383

[/INDENT]

I do agree with you that many of our separated brethern, whom you erroneously label “heretics” also have this same attitude - they seek, pray, knock, ask and desire that God work in their lives as He did in the days of the Apostles.

:tsktsk:

Lets look at the whole article shall we?

'**In January 1967, four Catholics from Duquesne attended their first interdenominational charismatic prayer meeting – the Chapel Hill meeting – in the home of Miss Flo Dodge, a Spirit-filled Presbyterian. Interestingly enough, a few months before these Catholics came, the Lord led Flo to read Isaiah 48 where He announces that He is about to do “a new thing”.Indeed, God was about to do a new thing among Catholics as a result of the prayer meeting. The people from Duquesne were impressed with what they witnessed there. On January 20, two of the men returned. They received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit and began to manifest charismatic gifts. They returned home to pray with the other two who had not attended that night. At this time I was a member of the Chi Rho Scripture Study group that met on the Duquesne campus. Two of these professors served as moderators of Chi Rho, and although they did not tell us outright about their charismatic experience, those who knew them well noticed that they radiated a new joy. We were planning for our retreat in February and the professors suggested a new theme: “The Holy Spirit.” In preparation for the retreat, they told us to pray expectantly, to read The Cross and the Switchblade, and to read the first four chapters of the Acts of the Apostles.

A few days before the retreat, I knelt in my room and prayed, “Lord, I believe I’ve already received your Spirit in Baptism and Confirmation. But if it’s possible for your Spirit to be more at work in my life than He’s been up until now, I WANT IT!” The dramatic answer to my prayer was soon to come. On February 17 about 25 of us left for The Ark and The Dove Retreat house on the outskirts of the city. As we gathered for each session, our professors told us to sing as a prayer the ancient hymn, Veni Creator Spiritus, “Come Creator Spirit”. On Friday night there was a meditation on Mary. Then we had a Penance Service. In John’s Gospel we read that when the Holy Spirit comes He will convict the world of sin. That’s what happened among us as we repented in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

On Saturday a member of the Chapel Hill Prayer Group came to speak on Acts, chapter 2. All we were told was that she was a Protestant friend of our professors. Although her presentation was very simple, it was filled with spiritual power. She spoke about surrendering to Jesus as Lord and Master. She described the Holy Spirit as a Person who empowered her daily. Here was someone who really seemed to know Jesus intimately and personally! She knew the power of the Holy Spirit like the Apostles did. I knew I wanted what she had and I wrote in my notes, “Jesus, be real for me.**’

ccr.org.uk/duquesne.htm

It is interesting how your quoting of the comments left out several salient facts:
1)That the first meeting was a prayer meeting with non-catholics at a non catholics home
2)That two catholic men returned from this meeting having received something called ‘baptism in the spirit’ and that they spoke of this experience to others
3)That prior to attending the retreat those attending were told to read not the works of catholic mystics or the Church’s great treasure ‘The Spiritual Exercises’ but two heretical works pregnant with heretical charasmatic ideas. From its very beginning therefore the meeting had an agenda and was intended to further this agenda.
4)That those present at the later retreat were ‘lectured’ by a non-catholic who had been part of the earlier non-catholic prayer meeting
5)That the person sought the gifts and the relationship with Our Lord that this non-catholic had and believed that she had a better understanding of the holy spirit than she and indeed the catholic church did! Because this woman had the same understanding as the Apostles!

By leaving out these salient facts the meeting sounds Orthodox but sadly that is not the full story as we can clearly see

Let us be clear I disagree with the private opinions or at the very least speeches and addresses given to charasmatics by 2 or at most 3 popes, you likewise disagree with the teaching of several great saints, doctors of the church and Popes.

Lastly whether you like it or not, all non-catholics ARE heretics. They are not formal heretics because they were raised in heresy and did not leave the church to embrace heresy, but they are material heretics because they present the material (the beliefs) to qualify as a heretic. Any diligent student of theology would know this.

 

[guanophore]

A claim you have been unable to prove, there is no church document that states this.

I realize that you make such a statement because you reject the documents of Vatican II and the statements of the Popes as valid.

You demand Papal encyclicals, but then reject the contents of them as relevant. Pope John Paul II wrote in his encyclical:

"…This text is important for the whole pneumatology of the Old Testament, because it constitutes a kind of bridge between the ancient **biblical concept of “spirit,” understood primarily as a “charismatic breath of wind,” **and the “Spirit” as a person and as a gift, a gift for the person.

…The fullness of the Spirit of God is accompanied by many different gifts, the treasures of salvation…

…the one who alone is the gift and the source of all giving of gifts, except the Spirit, who “searches the depths of God” and is the love of the Father and the Son?
…
…This new humanity is discovered precisely in the divine source of the original outpouring of gifts: in the Spirit, who “searches…the depths of God” and is himself love and gift.
…
…And faith, in its deepest essence, is** the openness of the human heart to the gift: **to God’s self- communication in the Holy Spirit…

…Through the gift of grace, which comes from the Holy Spirit, man enters a “new life,” is **brought into the supernatural reality of the divine life **itself and becomes a “dwelling-place of the Holy Spirit,” a living temple of God…

This Papal Encyclical refers to the Gifts of the HS 89 times. Reading it, we understand a Spirit filled and Spirit gifted live is intended to be the norm for the Christian life.

We understand not to seek ecstasies, but to have “openness of heart to the Gift of the HS”. In this state of yielding to His grace, we are ready to receive the supernatural reality of the divine life. This is what the participants of the Duquesne retreat were seeking. This is what properly formed Christians everywhere are seeking, as I am sure you do as well.

The only way you even claim to get proof for this is to claim that ‘charisms’ ONLY means the charasmatic gifts, something which again is an unsubstantiated claim.

I have made no such claim. There is a difference between the characterological gifts in Isa. 7, the hierarchical gifts, and the charismata. But the only thing all the gifts have in common is that they are all “extraordinary” in that they do not emanate from that which is human, but from the Divine.

This is irrelevant. They meet the criteria of extraordinary consolations and sensational occurences and thus are.

Only in your mind, my dear brother. Those of us who have read the writings of the mystics are clear that consolations do not refer to the charismatic gifts. If you will read the entry posted above in the Catholic Encyclopedia, this will be clear to you as well.

It is true that the States of the Soul may have physical and emotional sensations that accompany them, but these are unrelated to the charismata. Most saints who experienced consolation and desolation do not mention charismata at all. As you are fond of saying, repeating an error over and over will not turn it into a truth.

Often the saints would experience extreme spiritual dryness or even nothing when receiving extraordinary consolations but no one would claim they werent extraordinary consolations.

Exactly. What makes them extraordinary is not their frequency, but the fact that their origin is in God, and not the human person. They may occur daily for many years, but that does not lessen their extraordinary nature by virtue of their emanation from God.

Yet another unsubstantiated claim.

You respond this way because you reject the fact that what is written in the Book of Acts applies just as much to us today as it did to the early church. You also reject the documents of Vatican II which confirm these scriptures.

1. Although every disciple of Christ, as far in him lies, has the duty of spreading the Faith,(1) Christ the Lord always calls whomever He will from among the number of His disciples, to be with Him and to be sent by Him to preach to the nations (cf. Mark 3:13).** Therefore, by the Holy Spirit, who distributes the charismata as He wills for the common good **(1 Cor. 12:11), He inspires the missionary vocation in the hearts of individuals, and at the same time He raises up in the Church certain institutes(2) which take as their own special task the duty of preaching the Gospel, a duty belonging to the whole Church.

 

[guanophore]

An unsubstantiated and absurd claim.

I see from the stats that there are 10, 000 + views of this thread. I will urge those of you who are open minded to read the article in New Advent that was cited, which jmj claims is “unsubstantiated”. If you use the small blue icon next to the poster, you can trace the replies quickly back through the thread, and find the link that is being discussed, or here: That link indicates that Charismata are the spiritual graces and qualifications granted to every Christian to perform his task in the Church.

Firstly, thats plain false, the visions of St Margaret Mary Alcoque, St Maria Faustina, Sr Josefa Fernendez, St Theresa of Avila and so on were clearly not just for them but no one would deny they were extraordinary consolations.

While I will not deny that some visions are consoling, there are as many that are frightening and disconsoling. Personally I find the charismata functioning in my life very consoling, but Varda says she experiences otherwise. Perhaps we are having a semantics problem? Perhaps you will take the time to read the New Advent entry on States and we can explore if these are the same as the charismata? The article does not indicate that.

And as for your view of God and his gifts as some sort of tap which you can turn on and off well all I'm going to say on that regard is oh dear...

If you read the encyclical on gifts of the HS it is clear that God gives gifts to every person that we are to use in His service. All these gifts are bestowed in the Sacraments. A person then must choose to cooperate with the action of the HS for the gifts to operate. If a priest is ordained, but walks away from his vocation, then the gifts that were intended for the Body will not operate properly.

1)No, seeing as Popes and saints have used similar words to condemn movements

Since there has never been a “similar movement” that would be difficult, would it not?

Really so now The Church has been wrong for thousands of years? And most of the church has been heretical? Sorry brother its not the church thats heretical its you. Had poverty completely disappered in the Church? No. Had these ‘gifts’ completely disappeared and certainly were not exercised in the way they are today? Yes. So the example you gave doesnt work

No one is claiming that the Church has ever been “wrong”. The practices of the Church change over time, but no, the charismata never “completely disappeared” in the Church. I do agree, though, they have not been exercised as they are today since NT times.

The prayers of the Holy Father for “a New Pentecost” are being answered

 

[jmj1984]

I realize that you make such a statement because you reject the documents of Vatican II and the statements of the Popes as valid.

You demand Papal encyclicals, but then reject the contents of them as relevant. Pope John Paul II wrote in his encyclical:

"…This text is important for the whole pneumatology of the Old Testament, because it constitutes a kind of bridge between the ancient **biblical concept of “spirit,” understood primarily as a “charismatic breath of wind,” **and the “Spirit” as a person and as a gift, a gift for the person.

…The fullness of the Spirit of God is accompanied by many different gifts, the treasures of salvation…

…the one who alone is the gift and the source of all giving of gifts, except the Spirit, who “searches the depths of God” and is the love of the Father and the Son?
…
…This new humanity is discovered precisely in the divine source of the original outpouring of gifts: in the Spirit, who “searches…the depths of God” and is himself love and gift.
…
…And faith, in its deepest essence, is** the openness of the human heart to the gift: **to God’s self- communication in the Holy Spirit…

…Through the gift of grace, which comes from the Holy Spirit, man enters a “new life,” is **brought into the supernatural reality of the divine life **itself and becomes a “dwelling-place of the Holy Spirit,” a living temple of God…

This Papal Encyclical refers to the Gifts of the HS 89 times. Reading it, we understand a Spirit filled and Spirit gifted live is intended to be the norm for the Christian life.

You finally found an encyclical!

However it doesnt mention the charasmatic gifts at all so attempting to link it to the charasmatic movement is well frankly desperate.

As for your argument ad absurdam about Vatican II and Papal statements I would suggest you take a theology course or read the catechism of the council of trent or possibly both because you clearly lack any understanding of catholic theology whatsoever.

We understand not to seek ecstasies, but to have “openness of heart to the Gift of the HS”. In this state of yielding to His grace, we are ready to receive the supernatural reality of the divine life. This is what the participants of the Duquesne retreat were seeking. This is what properly formed Christians everywhere are seeking, as I am sure you do as well.

Really? Well those present at the meeting seem to think they were seeking those gifts and measuring whether they had yielded to his grace or not and how much by according to what and how many ‘gifts’ they had received.

Only in your mind, my dear brother. Those of us who have read the writings of the mystics are clear that consolations do not refer to the charismatic gifts. If you will read the entry posted above in the Catholic Encyclopedia, this will be clear to you as well.

It is true that the States of the Soul may have physical and emotional sensations that accompany them, but these are unrelated to the charismata. Most saints who experienced consolation and desolation do not mention charismata at all. As you are fond of saying, repeating an error over and over will not turn it into a truth.

What pray tell me was the point of this paragraph? Speaking in tongues and prophecy are clearly extraordinary, rare and particular gifts from God that more than suffices for them to be under the warnings given by St Vincent Ferrer.

Exactly. What makes them extraordinary is not their frequency, but the fact that their origin is in God, and not the human person. They may occur daily for many years, but that does not lessen their extraordinary nature by virtue of their emanation from God.

:tsktsk:
I doubt anyone would be calling Marian Apparitions or extaordinary consolations, extraordinary if they happened all the time, they would be ordinary. The word you are looking for is supernatural, they would be supernatural regardless of frequency because they came from God but if they occured often and to many people they would most definitely be ordinary

You respond this way because you reject the fact that what is written in the Book of Acts applies just as much to us today as it did to the early church. You also reject the documents of Vatican II which confirm these scriptures.

1. Although every disciple of Christ, as far in him lies, has the duty of spreading the Faith,(1) Christ the Lord always calls whomever He will from among the number of His disciples, to be with Him and to be sent by Him to preach to the nations (cf. Mark 3:13).** Therefore, by the Holy Spirit, who distributes the charismata as He wills for the common good **(1 Cor. 12:11), He inspires the missionary vocation in the hearts of individuals, and at the same time He raises up in the Church certain institutes(2) which take as their own special task the duty of preaching the Gospel, a duty belonging to the whole Church.

I’m quite surprised you can read minds Because I certainly don’t remember saying that i rejected Acts so I’ve got no idea where you got that idea from

 

[jmj1984]

I see from the stats that there are 10, 000 + views of this thread. I will urge those of you who are open minded to read the article in New Advent that was cited, which jmj claims is “unsubstantiated”. If you use the small blue icon next to the poster, you can trace the replies quickly back through the thread, and find the link that is being discussed, or here: That link indicates that Charismata are the spiritual graces and qualifications granted to every Christian to perform his task in the Church.

Because clearly all Christians need to speak in tongues and prophecise in order to be christian. I can’t say I’m surprised that you use the word ‘Christian’ rather than Catholic. Sorry Friend but nowhere does the church say all Catholics need to speak in tongues or prophecise in order to perform their task as members of the Church Militant. So do us all a favour and stop being dishonest in an attempt to further your cause.

Should we perhaps look at the article in question? '**Theologians distinguish the charismata from other graces which operate personal sanctification: they call the former gratiae gratis datae in opposition to the gratiae gratum facientes. The “gifts and fruits of the Holy Ghost”, being given for personal sanctification, are not to be numbered among the charismata. St. Thomas (Summa Theol., I-II, Q. cxi, a. 4) argues that the Apostle (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) “rightly divides charismata; for some belong to the perfection of knowledge, as faith, the word of wisdom, and the word of science; some belong to the confirmation of doctrine, or the grace of healing, the working of miracles, prophecy, the discerning of spirits; some belong to the faculty of expression, as kinds of tongues and interpretation of speeches.” It must, however, be conceded that St. Paul did not intend to give in these two verses a complete enumeration of charismata, for at the end of the chapter he mentions several more; besides he makes no attempt at a scientific division. Englmann (Die Charismen, Ratisbon, 1848) distinguishes two categories of charismata:

charismata tending to further the inner growth of the Church;
charismata tending to promote her outer development.

To the former belong the gifts which help the dignitaries of the Church in performing their offices; to the latter the gift of performing miracles. This division seems indicated in 1 Peter 4:10-11: “As every man hath received grace [charisma], ministering the same to one another. . . If any man speak, let him speak, as the words of God. If any man minister, let him do it, as of the power, which God administereth.” Seven of the charismata enumerated by St. Paul fall into the first category:

the Apostolate;
the cognate office of prophecy;
the discerning of spirits;
the office of teacher;
the word of wisdom and science;
helps;
the gift of governing.

Five belong to the second category:

increased faith;
the power of miracles;
in specie the healing of the sick;
the gift of tongues;
the interpretation of tongues. **'

So amongst what you attempt to narrow the charasmatic gifts down to we also have such ‘mundane’ things as ‘increase in faith’ , ‘the gift of governing’ ‘the office of teacher’ and ‘the apostolate’. Perhaps you should mention these a bit more often rather than just the sensational gifts you insist on claiming we should all have
Clearly not everyone will have all these gifts or even some of them, some of us will only have one and this could be an ‘increase of faith’ or ‘the gift of governing’ or the ‘Apostolate’ so your claim that we should all be able to speak in tongues or prophecise or such things is patently false.

If you read the encyclical on gifts of the HS it is clear that God gives gifts to every person that we are to use in His service. All these gifts are bestowed in the Sacraments. A person then must choose to cooperate with the action of the HS for the gifts to operate. If a priest is ordained, but walks away from his vocation, then the gifts that were intended for the Body will not operate properly.

Please tell me you’re not trying to claim the church got it wrong for thousands of years again? Such a claim is simply heretical.

Since there has never been a “similar movement” that would be difficult, would it not?

Dishonesty again, many people on this thread have pointed out similar heretical movement to the charasmatic one and I shall do so again in my next post.

No one is claiming that the Church has ever been “wrong”. The practices of the Church change over time, but no, the charismata never “completely disappeared” in the Church. I do agree, though, they have not been exercised as they are today since NT times.

This statement is oxymoronic, they havent been exercised in the way they are today since NT but the church wasn’t wrong Why then were all similar movements condemned?

 

[jmj1984]

'**Messalianism, a heresy that originated in Mesopotamia in A.D. 360. The Messalians denied that the Sacraments give grace and declared that the only spiritual power is prayer leading to possession by the Holy Spirit. Such “possession” eventually led to immorality, from which they were also called “The Filthy.” Various bishops and councils of the Church condemned them.

Montanism, a heresy that claimed the Holy Spirit superseded the revelation of Christ and was supplementing the revelation of Christ, such that they were acting under a “new outpouring of the Spirit.” This heresy takes the name of its founder, Monatanus, who began to be carried away by “inspiration”, by which would fall into a sudden seizure and start raving in his speech, speaking with a strange tongue. Pope St. Zephyrinus (199-217) denied them communion with the Church. **’

'****Convulsionary Jansenists

It is not possible to enter here into the particulars of the Jansenist
controversy. Suffice it to say that during the seventeenth and early
eighteenth centruries in France, the Jansenists, although they claimed to be
the authentic and true sons and daughters of the Church, were under
increasing disfavor by the Church’s hierarchy due to their extreme “rigorist”
view of the sacraments, and their mitigated Calvinistic teaching regarding
grace, human nature, and free will.

When the dogmatic constitution “Unigenitus Deus” was issued (and confirmed
by Pope Clement XI in 1713), condemning their leading theologian’s opinions,
many Jansenists not only refused to abide by the document, but chose to
retrench their opposition by taking refuge in the “miraculous” cemetery of
St. Medard in Paris:

"The immediate occasion of all the trouble was the death of Francois de
Paris, a pronounced Jansenist in deacon’s orders who had acquired, in life, a
reputation for sanctity…it was as if he were determined, in his last moments,
that any miracles which came to be associated with his name should be
Jansenist, not merely Catholic, miracles. (Knox, op. Cit., pge 375)

"But in the summer of 1731, the cure of a paralytic…gave a different turn to
the proceedings…it began when she was placed on the tomb of M. Paris, with…
‘extremely violent movements’…the cures, from this date onwards, seem to have
been normally, if not invariably accompanied by convulsions…And now began, in
the cemetery of St. Medard, that extraordinary dance of the
convulsionaries…You saw in the cemetery, ‘men falling like epileptics, others
swallowing pebbles, glass, and even live coals, women walking feet in air…You
heard nothing but groaning, singing, shrieking, whistling, declaiming,
prophesying, caterwauling’…On the tomb itself you saw the Abbe Becheraud,
hopping incessantly on one leg, and proclaiming his other leg, which was 14
inches shorter, was growing…every three months…A Jansenist pamphlet…seems
to suggest at first that all was done in a dumb show…The author of the same
pamphlet declares that he has heard more than a hundred times a convulsionary
talking in an unknown language, and understanding any language that was spoken
to her…it must be admitted that much of the glossalay was unintelligible…
(ibid., pges. 376-378)**

**The Azusa Street Revival, as it is popularly known, that propelled the
Pentecostal movement from relative obscurity to worldwide notoriety.
It is one of the lesser known but well documented facts that Charles Parham’s
greatest pupil was, because of his race, was not allowed by the “spiritual
father” of the Pentecostal movement to enter his classroom, but obliged to
listen to Parham’s lectures in the hall.

William Seymour, a black holiness preacher, received his “Pentecostal
experience”, or “Baptism in the Spirit” in Los Angeles, and is credited with
beginning the Azusa Street revival. This “revival”, by its very nature, was
not likely to avoid becoming controversial, as evinced by an article which
appeared in the Los Angeles Times on April 18, 1906:

"…Breathing strange utterances, and mouthing a creed which it would seem no
mortal could understand, the newest religious sect has started in Los
Angeles…devotees of the weird doctrine practice the most fanatical rites,
preach the wildest theories, and work themselves into a state of mad
excitement…night is made hideous in the neighborhood by the howlings of the
worshippers who spend hours swaying back and forth in a nerve racking [sic]
attitude of prayer and supplication. They claim to have the “gift of
tongues” and be able to comprehend the babel…

An old colored exhorter (presumably Seymour), blind in one eye is the major
domo of the company. With his stony optic fixed on some luckless unbeliever,
the old man yells his defiance and challenges an answer. Anathemas are
heaped upon him who shall dare to gainsay the utterances of the preacher.
Clasped in his big fist, the colored brother holds a miniature Bible from
which he reads at intervals one or two words, never more. After an hour
spent in exhortation the brethren [sic] present are invited to join in a
‘meeting of song, prayer, and testimony.’ Then it is that pandemonium breaks
loose, and the bounds of reason are passed by the those who are ‘filled with
the spirit’, whatever that may be**."’
**

unitypublishing.com/Hist-of-Char.html

That all sounds quite similar to the charasmatic movement to me…

 

[ltwin]

So amongst what you attempt to narrow the charasmatic gifts down to we also have such ‘mundane’ things as ‘increase in faith’ , ‘the gift of governing’ ‘the office of teacher’ and ‘the apostolate’. Perhaps you should mention these a bit more often rather than just the sensational gifts you insist on claiming we should all have
Clearly not everyone will have all these gifts or even some of them, some of us will only have one and this could be an ‘increase of faith’ or ‘the gift of governing’ or the ‘Apostolate’ so your claim that we should all be able to speak in tongues or prophecise or such things is patently false.

Maybe I missed it, but where did he say all Christians had to speak in tongues or prophesy? I think the point is that you are thinking that the Charismatic movement narrows the charismatic gifts down to the ones like tongues, prophecy, and healing. It does not. It, by its nature, affirms the continuing presence of all the gifts.