Defending the Holy Spirit, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement

[guanophore]

**

Therefore the contention is that what the CCR does helps unleash them, for want of a better word?

LOL. GIven the current cultural climate, I think we to want for a better word. I like “unwrap”, as these gifts are given in baptism/confirmation, but most Catholics are not taught how to open them and use them. It is like having a new flat screen TV that just sits in the box because no training has been provided in how to connect and work it. When I was in confirmation preparation classes, only the Isaiah gifts were mentioned.

I would say that long time ago the Catholic Church decided that upswelling emotions and enthusiasm signify nothing in themselves. What of it, if John Straw or Mary Smith has an ecstatic feeling? It means little to the greater Church, but such a person, charismatic in the modern sense, could lead thousands astray. Or just themselves, imagining that their feelings equated to a certain knowledge of the Divine.

Yes. I think this conclusion occurred about the time of the Monatanism heresy, and has prevailed ever since. It is really not until our modern age, and the advent of scientific understanding of mental functioning that occurred with Freud and after that a better understanding of the role of emotions in human development was understood.

So we don't want to hear about your feelings unless you prophesy truthfully and consistently and in accordance with doctrine.

And I would go so far as to say that feelings should have no bearing on a truthful and consistent prophesy.

Would feelings have any relevance if reading the Bible aloud? I would think not. If a lector became wildly emotional during the reading, would people find that edifying? I think not. Same for the Word of God that comes through the Church in prophetic form.

Something more significant than what a fortune-teller usually produces or a faith-healer who heals yet the patient has a relapse.

The gift of prophesy is the gift of speaking the timeless Truth of God into the present circumstance. All of us are to have this gift functioning in our daily lives, so that we are able to represent God’s point of view to the Church, and to the world. This gift is at the core of the sensus fidelum.

Certainly noisy enthusiasm has no place in a sacred rite where others present are trying to commune with their god, in peace. It turns it into a vehicle for self-expression, the opposite of self-negation.

I think this is why Charismatics are encouraged to have their noisy enthusiasm about Jesus outside of the Mass.

The local Bishop is properly the authority on these matters. He decides if there is something supernatural present, or not. He has said, not. Medjugorje fans ignore this and they ignore the evidence he has gathered. Because they have great enthusiam at the thought that the Queen Of Heaven is appearing and they report a marvellous atmosphere there. A great feeling.

It is always problematic to go by one’s feelings to the exclusion of evidence. It is also always problematic to disobey the authorities appointed by Christ.

 

[jmj1984]

Originally Posted by guanophore View Post
However, this being the case, it makes it much easier to distinguish them from charisms. Charisms are given to the most immature, in fact, to complete novices. Tongues and prophesy were the most immediate and visible signs of those newly confirmed by the Apostles, who had absolutely no spiritual formation whatsoever. It is also clear from Paul’s letter to the Corinthians that they were very immature in the faith.

Jmj, it appears that part of your confusion about this whole issue could be due to a reading comprehension problem. As you can plainly see that guanophore stated that it was those who were newly confirmed by the Apostles who had no spiritual formation, whatsoever. I hope everyone can see how poor reading comprehension skills can contribute to one’s erroneous concepts.

A reading comprehension problem, you could just say a ‘mistake’ but then lack of charity is the hallmark of those who defend this bizzare movement.

 

[jmj1984]

So where do you see in this that they were “seeking gifts”?

The persons attending clearly stated that they witnessed people who had a vibrant and life giving relationship with Jesus, and they wanted MORE JESUS!

Which they got by copying the practices of heretics? Maybe they should have started saying the rosary or the crown of the blessed virgin mary or practicing the Sacred Heart Devotion or indeed any of the many, many approved and CATHOLIC devotions that the Church possesses. Why you would forsake this and follow the practice of heretics is beyond me

I read after this that you are refusing to read The Cross and the Switchblade. You seem to have no difficulty judging this book as full of “heresies”, yet you do not have the courage to look at it? Who is being disingenuous here?

And, for your information the Acts of the Apostles is part of the New Testament, without question a thoroughly Catholic book. I strongly recommmend it for background on the subject of the CCR.

‘They speak in tongues’ I wonder what that could be about… As for the cross and the switchblade, the author was a well known heretic and the book inevitably projects his own heretical views being as it is a religious book.

As for the book of Acts, I don’t remember anyone questioning its authority

I don’t see any one obsessing over gifts here, either. They want more of the HS at work in their lives. Do you find this desire “heretical”?

And pray tell me how do they judge whether they have this work in their lives? Oh thats right by having the gifts

Nothing about charismatic gifts here either. It seems you are projecting your own ideas into these accounts.

Sorry? What happened to the people who came back from the first prayer meeting and encouraged the others? Oh thats right they started praying in tongues… And what book were they encouraged to read as regards the theme of the retreat? ‘They speak in tongues’. They couldn’t possibly be encouraging the gift of tongues as regards the Holy Spirit now, could they?. Your posts demonstrate a willful a blindness, frankly you are not a catholic but a charasmatic, your charasmatic beliefs have become in your mind ‘De Fide’ and of as much dogmatic weight as the creed.

I know you seem to believe that the Church forbids Catholics to pray with non-Catholics in their home.

A prayer meeting between catholics and heretics that lasted for several days and during which catholics were prayed over by non-catholics and taught non-catholic dogma? Yes I’m pretty sure thats forbidden.

This is a problem because? You understand the word “baptism” means to dip or immerse, right? Do you think it is wrong for Catholics to be immersed in the HS?

Catholics already are, its called Baptism and confirmation, no speaking gibberish and running around or falling over is going to increase someones immersion in the holy spirit

My dear confused sibling in Christ. There are no pregnatn heresies in either of the books they were encouraged to read. And the Acts of the Apostles that you are calling a “heretical work pregnant with heretical charismatic ideas” was included in the Catholic Bible because it contains only orthodox Catholic ideas. If you believe that any of the New Testament books foster heresy, then you are really much further from Catholic faith than I thought!

You are now just out and out lying, which as you know is a serious sin. No one ever said that the Book of Acts was heresy, your entire argument has been made by ignoring the facts, lying and insulting others. If these are the fruits of the movement then I think its pretty clear where it comes from…

 

[jmj1984]

Yes, of course. The Christians were excited about Jesus, and the fullness of life in Christ. They wanted to share the “good news” with others. Those seeing the transformative power of God in their lives were drawn to it, just like it says in that “heretical work” the Acts of the Apostles.

Yet more lying, no one ever called the book of Acts ‘heretical’. And no they were excited about tongues, tongues and yes more tongues. And guess what happened at the retreat? Oh yeah thats right tongues. What a surprise

For some reason you are offended by non-Catholics sharing their faith experiences.

Offended? No. But what Have I learn from a heretic? Am I going to sit and listen to a heretic preaching heresy? No. Sorry if this basic fact of the last 2,000 years of church history eluded you.

This is simply false. There is nothing in any of the testimonies that support this erroneous assertion. You would like this to be true, so that you can discredit the whole thing, but it just is not.

Really? Two men come back from a non-catholic retreat speaking in tongues, those who are attending the next retreat are encouraged to read a book on the subject of tongues and the subject of the retreat is the holy spirit. Further those present at the retreat are lectured by someone who attended the retreat where tongues was present and states ‘She described the Holy Spirit as a Person who empowered her daily. Here was someone who really seemed to know Jesus intimately and personally! She knew the power of the Holy Spirit like the Apostles did. I knew I wanted what she had and I wrote in my notes, “Jesus, be real for me.’’ So the holy spirit wasn’t real for her before? I think not, she clearly lacked basic catechesis. Lets read the rest of the story
'**Saturday night a birthday party was planned for a few of our members, but there was a listlessness in the group. I wandered into the upstairs chapel…not to pray but to tell any students there to come down to the party. Yet, when I entered and knelt in the presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, I literally trembled with a sense of awe before His majesty. I knew in an overwhelming way that He is the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords. I thought, “You had better get out of here quick before something happens to you.” But overriding my fear was a much greater desire to surrender myself unconditionally to God.

I prayed, “Father, I give my life to you. Whatever you ask of me, I accept. And if it means suffering, I accept that too. Just teach me to follow Jesus and to love as He loves.” In the next moment, I found myself prostrate, flat on my face, and flooded with an experience of the merciful love of God…a love that is totally undeserved, yet lavishly given. Yes, it’s true what St. Paul writes, “The love of God has been poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit.” My shoes came off in the process. I was indeed on holy ground. I felt as if I wanted to die and be with God. The prayer of St. Augustine captures my experience: “O Lord, you have made us for yourself and our hearts are restless until they rest in You.” As much as I wanted to bask in His presence, I knew that if I, who am no one special, could experience the love of God in this way, that anyone across the face of the earth could do so.

I ran down to tell our chaplain what had happened and he said that David Mangan had been in the chapel before me and had encountered God’s presence in the same way. Two girls told me my face was glowing and wanted to know what had happened. I wasn’t familiar enough with the Scripture to know that passage in II Corinthians where it describes Moses whose face shone when he returned from the mountain. St. Paul writes: “All of us, with unveiled faces, beholding the beauty of the Lord are being transformed from one degree of glory to another.” I led these two students into the chapel and began to pray, “Lord, whatever you just did for me, do it for them!” That was probably the shortest Life in the Spirit Seminar on record!

Within the next hour God sovereignly drew many of the students into the chapel. Some were laughing, others crying. Some prayed in tongues, others (like me) felt a burning sensation coursing through their hands. One of the professors walked in and exclaimed, “What is the Bishop going to say when he hears that all these kids have been baptized in the Holy Spirit!” **’
So surprise, surprise after reading all about tongues, being talked to by people or at least having met those who prayed in tongues and setting the theme of the retreat for the holy spirit they started praying in tongues. If you honestly think that after all that they didn’t seek the gift ot tongues then you need to brush up your deduction skills.

Aside from this this testimony is based on feelings, ‘I felt awe… I felt this… I felt that’ feelings mislead, there is a complete lack of discernment or caution. ‘It felt good and it happened in church so it must be right’ is essentially her logic and those of the people who followed her in.

Then the heretical idea of baptism in the spirit is repeated again, there is no such thing as baptism in the spirit, there is only baptism and confirmation NOTHING ELSE.

 

[jmj1984]

Maybe you are getting worked up, or maybe I am just having trouble following you. What is wrong with wanting a closer relationship with Jesus? Do you honestly believe that non-Catholics can’t have a closer relationship with our Lord than some Catholics? I have read some bigoted statements, but I hope this is not what you are saying.

Oh now I’m bigoted? You’re clearly completely ignorant of church history, you read all those ‘bigoted’ statements about their being no salvation outside the church? You know the odd 50 or so statements over 2000 years that are still repeated today. And yes by defintion non-catholics cannot have a closer relationship with God than Catholics.

The testimonies of Catholics involved in the CCR NEVER detract from the CC. This account does NOT say that the woman had a better understanding of a relationship with the Lord than the CC. She is speaking of her own experience, only. But yes, the woman read about the Acts of the Apostles in that Catholic book, and shared their faith.

Because of course the fact she was there at the birth of the movement, helped give birth to it, is therefore a founding member and her interview is on a prestigious CCR website is completely irrelevant.

What is clear is that you seem to perceive things about this story that others don’t see. It gives rise to concern about reality testing.

Yes well I have concerns about you, its a fact you have lied repeatedly in this discussion, insulted me and others, misrepresented the views of others and cannot distinguish fact from fiction.

No, jmj. I do not disagree with the saints, doctors, or the Popes. For me there is no discontinuity between what has been taught previously, and what is currently being taught. I believe that the Bishop of Rome is the successor of Peter, and that he has been given a special charism to feed and care for the flock.

Really? Perhaps you should treat his authoritative words with a bit more respect then

It is not a matter of my liking, or not liking, jmj. It is a matter of what the Church teaches. People that embrace heresies are not necessarily heretics, and in most cases our separated brethren are not. To qualify as a heretic, a person needs to first embrace the true faith, then willfully reject it. Most of our separated brethren have never been exposed to the fullness of the faith. Rather than your disdain and bigotry, they require catechesis and evangelization. I can assure you that you will not get very far bringing them into the fullness of faith with this kind of name calling.

Who said anything about disdain and bigotry? I’m just stating facts, doesn’t really matter whether you like facts or not they remain true.

Your position contradicts the Catechism, which affirms that such persons cannot be charged with heresy, have the right to be called our brothers, and whose ecclesial communities contain many elements of sanctification and truth. What you call the “poisoned well”, the Catechism teaches that God uses to draw people to Himself. Which position should I accept? Yours, or that of the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

Does the catechism say catholics should draw water from communities that only have parts of the truth? **No? I thought not. Stop lying and accept the facts. You cannot provide a shred of evidence or authority to back up your movement. **

 

[vardaquinn]

@ jmj1984:

An unsubstantiated and absurd claim.

Look, we’ve shown you the authoritative Church teaching on the matter. We’ve also tried to argue logically why what we’re saying is the case. I can’t understand why you think our claims are absurd… Why is wanting more of the presence and power of the Holy Spirit, why is trying to spread the faith and being of service to the Church through gifts of the Holy Spirit, why is trying to live a New Testament Christianity, a spirituality of Pentecost, just as the Apostles “absurd”? I can understand you calling us misguided, but “absurd”?

Firstly, thats plain false, the visions of St Margaret Mary Alcoque, St Maria Faustina, Sr Josefa Fernendez, St Theresa of Avila and so on were clearly not just for them but no one would deny they were extraordinary consolations

Some of them were. Some of them weren’t. The visions and locutions then were the means God used to transmit private revelation.

And as for your view of God and his gifts as some sort of tap which you can turn on and off well all I’m going to say on that regard is oh dear…

That’s not our view. Rather, is complete surrender and trust to His loving mercy, and living according to His every little whim. It is we who are something He turns on and off, we are His tools.

2)Then you’re incapabale of recognising truth or facts ‘They speak in tongues’ I wonder which heterodox dogmas will be in their.

Yes, probably some absurd claim that the Holy Spirit gives out a gift called speaking in tongues…

Really so now The Church has been wrong for thousands of years? And most of the church has been heretical? Sorry brother its not the church thats heretical its you. Had poverty completely disappered in the Church? No. Had these ‘gifts’ completely disappeared and certainly were not exercised in the way they are today? Yes. So the example you gave doesnt work

Am I saying the Church has been wrong for thousands of years? No. I am saying individuals in the Church have been wrong from time to time. Throughout Church history, saints and holy Popes and Councils have arisen to correct these errors. No, the gifts never completely dissapeared, we’ve cited numerous examples of them occuring throughout history. The issue with Francis wasn’t an issue of poverty, but that was something he used to inspire true renewal.

And yet I’ve read these works and seen nothing of this These consolations will inevitably lead weaker souls astray

Then you have not read the works. You also do not have a good understand of what consolations are, and what faith is, and what a “weaker soul” is. I’ll just cite one example from St. Alphonsus that summarizes it nicely, but I can think of specific cases where I have seen all of these authors say the same thing. “The saints have lived most of their lives in a state of desolation rather than of consolation. The Lord rarely grants such consolation and perhaps only to those weaker in order that they might not give up on their spiritual journey. But he prepares all the delights of heaven for us as our prize” (Conformity to the Will of God).

These consolations can lead weaker souls astray, but not “inevitably”. You should take a break from this discussion and come back with a firmer grasp on Western mystical theology. Those authors would be great places to start with.

 

[vardaquinn]

What is clear to me is that your wind is long lost in heretical views of the church and you cannot distinguish the difference betwee truth and falsehood. Now we have the novelty of attacking me via a commentary on someone elses posts, most amusing but ultimately a complete waste of time and a further admission of the weakness of your own position.

That’s just a derail, and an ad hominem attack. Your posts are filled with such statements, and I please ask you to refrain from them because they’re really adding nothing to the discussion.

3)That prior to attending the retreat those attending were told to read not the works of catholic mystics or the Church’s great treasure ‘The Spiritual Exercises’ but two heretical works pregnant with heretical charasmatic ideas. From its very beginning therefore the meeting had an agenda and was intended to further this agenda.

You have not established that the works are “pregnant with heresy”. Sure, it had an agenda. That’s generally the case with meetings.

5)That the person sought the gifts and the relationship with Our Lord that this non-catholic had and believed that she had a better understanding of the holy spirit than she and indeed the catholic church did! Because this woman had the same understanding as the Apostles!

No, she had a better understanding of the gifts and the Holy Spirit than many of the people she was speaking to. That’s why they asked her to come. A few retreatants do not equal the Catholic Church. And I have seen no evidence of heresy in what she actually said. So she is simply stating Church teaching.

So amongst what you attempt to narrow the charasmatic gifts down to we also have such ‘mundane’ things as ‘increase in faith’ , ‘the gift of governing’ ‘the office of teacher’ and ‘the apostolate’. Perhaps you should mention these a bit more often rather than just the sensational gifts you insist on claiming we should all have

The sensational gifts get press because they’re the subject of the most controversy.

 

[vardaquinn]

And non-Catholics acheive this without the Eucharist? Without the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ? They acheive this outside of the Keys of Peter? Outside of the Holy Spirit sent to the Apostltes, who by the way were the Catholic Church. Outside of the Communion of Saints? Outside of the Mother of God, who they refuse to honor as such. Outside of the Rosary? Outside of the Sacred Tradition of the Church? OUTSIDE OF THE MASS? Outside of the SEVEN Sacraments? Outside of the priesthood established by Christ? Outside of the COMPLETE canon of scripture?

Indeed. Some non-Catholics (not all) know Jesus better than some Catholics (not all) who have all of these things. Doesn’t this appall you? God went overkill with the Catholic Church. Everyone in the Church should be amazing saints. Until we’re all better Christians than Protestants, they will never see any reason to come to us. Why should they? If they see Catholics as having all this extra stuff, but not Jesus evident in every aspect of their lives… what would be the point? That’s the motive of Protestantism, isn’t it? To ‘scrape off the barnacles added on by the Church’ and get back to Christ. Scrape off all this extra teaching. Sola Christi. This should make every single Catholic ashamed.

Therefore the contention is that what the CCR does helps unleash them, for want of a better word?

Yes.

Certainly noisy enthusiasm has no place in a sacred rite where others present are trying to commune with their god, in peace.

Why? What ever happened to making a joyful noise unto the Lord? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating loud rock music at Mass, but I am very disheartened to see this mentality. Read how the Apostles worshiped in the Acts of the Apostles. Acts 5, for instance. Go to a sports stadium and compare the level of enthusiasm there with the level of enthusiasm in your nearest church. The people in the stadium are completely into it and enthused about something, ultimately, rather worthless. The people in the church should have a hundred million times more enthusiasm than these people, since this is the most important and amazing thing there is. It is God Himself, who has visited His people, come down from Heaven, and into our very bodies. Rather, you see the epitome of sloth. Spiritual deadness. Boredom. People are practically sleeping in the pews. Someone walking in to a Catholic Church should be able to instantly tell that these people know Jesus, that they have the Holy Spirit, that they are fully participating in what their doing, not going through the motions, wide awake and adoring their God with everything they’ve got. Rather, they see disinterest and boredom. All true devotion that may be there is simply buried and individualistic. Rather disappointing, no? This is GOD!!! This is the holiest thing on earth!!! This is the sacrifice of our salvation, the most glorious thing of all time! This is when God speaks to His people, visits His people, and performs the ultimate miracles of transforming ordinary bread and wine into Himself. That should be an occasion of the utmost joy and enthusiasm.

Annie Dillard writes:

Why do people in churches seem like cheerful brainless tourists on a packaged tour of the Absolute? … Does anyone have the foggiest idea what sort of Power we so blandly invoke? … The churches are children playing on the floor with chemistry sets, mixing up a batch of TNT to kill a Sunday morning. It is madness to wear ladies’ straw hats and velvet hats to church; we should be wearing crash helmets. Ushers should issue life preservers and signal flares; they should lash us on to our pews. For the sleeping God may wake up some day and draw us out to where we can never return.

Don’t we know what’s going on in church? Don’t we know that we’re attending a meeting of spies plotting a revolution against the Prince of This World? Do we not know the great Lion of Judah, who sneaks into our churches in disguise to meet us there? - Peter Kreeft

You should know, He’s not a tame lion.

 

[vardaquinn]

Then the heretical idea of baptism in the spirit is repeated again, there is no such thing as baptism in the spirit, there is only baptism and confirmation NOTHING ELSE.

Then why aren’t you a saint?

 

[Mike30]

Then why aren’t you a saint?

I certainly hope that you are not implying that those to allege to have received baptism in the Holy Spirit’, whatever that is to the movement, are saints and those of us who haven’t been so lucky, :thumbsup:are not’‘although after reading this thread and a hundred other almost identical threads’,I am starting to believe that is exactly whatmembers of themovement believe.

Of course, since the movement chooses to identifry itself as practicing more spirit filled and scripturally pure version of the faith it all makes perfect sense. Recall why Paul worte Corinthiqans first place. To address the issue of those who thought themselves to be the more spiritually advanced and thus more righteous before God. They too practiced the samethings as do the charismatics do today and with the same lamentable rewsults. A belief that they and they alone know the trutha dnassuch are more spiritually pure.

Sorry, but that is the impression I get after slogging nthrough these threads…

 

[vardaquinn]

I certainly hope that you are not implying that those to allege to have received baptism in the Holy Spirit’, whatever that is to the movement, are saints and those of us who haven’t been so lucky,

No, I’m simply countering his argument that it’s “baptism and confirmation, that’s it”. If simply receiving the sacraments is enough, why isn’t he a saint?

Of course, since the movement chooses to identifry itself as practicing more spirit filled and scripturally pure version of the faith it all makes perfect sense. Recall why Paul worte Corinthiqans first place. To address the issue of those who thought themselves to be the more spiritually advanced and thus more righteous before God. They too practiced the samethings as do the charismatics do today and with the same lamentable rewsults. A belief that they and they alone know the trutha dnassuch are more spiritually pure

I could see how you’d get that impression, but that isn’t exactly what we’re claiming. I have no ability to judge how spiritually advanced anyone is really, unless I’m their spiritual director. So we’re not making any such statements. Rather, we are saying that what we choose to identify ourselves with is part of the normal Catholic life and leave the individual to determine the degree to which he is living this out. I at least am not trying to make any judgments on anything besides the truth of people’s statements.

 

[vardaquinn]

Oh now I’m bigoted? You’re clearly completely ignorant of church history, you read all those ‘bigoted’ statements about their being no salvation outside the church? You know the odd 50 or so statements over 2000 years that are still repeated today. And yes by defintion non-catholics cannot have a closer relationship with God than Catholics.

You avoided the question. Nobody was calling you a bigot. The statement was -

Maybe you are getting worked up, or maybe I am just having trouble following you. What is wrong with wanting a closer relationship with Jesus? Do you honestly believe that non-Catholics can’t have a closer relationship with our Lord than some Catholics? I have read some bigoted statements, but I hope this is not what you are saying.

Obviously expressing guanaphore’s trouble following what exactly you’re saying, and hoping that was seemed to be simply bigoted statements were part of guanaphore’s misunderstanding of what you’re saying.

Please, answer the question.

 

[vardaquinn]

Which they got by copying the practices of heretics? Maybe they should have started saying the rosary or the crown of the blessed virgin mary or practicing the Sacred Heart Devotion or indeed any of the many, many approved and CATHOLIC devotions that the Church possesses. Why you would forsake this and follow the practice of heretics is beyond me

I say the Rosary, the Crown of the Blessed Virgin, and the Sacred Heart devotion is a big part of my spirituality… I also do what you would call the “practices of heretics” (I speak in tongues, pray over people, try to use whatever charisms God has given me - extraordinary or no). In my personal spiritual experience, these things were the fruit of my experience of the charismatic dimension. Nobody is forsaking these things. Many of the charismatics I know all practice exactly what you give examples of.

 

[vardaquinn]

Does the catechism say catholics should draw water from communities that only have parts of the truth? No? I thought not. Stop lying and accept the facts. You cannot provide a shred of evidence or authority to back up your movement.

We have given you authoritative (pretty much as authoritative as it gets) that shows that what we believe about the Holy Spirit, charisms, and the experience of Pentecost is precisely what the Church itself teaches.

We have also given you statements from Popes, bishops, priests and leading theologians that give extraordinarily strong approval to the movement.

We have produced many numerous quotes (which I will repost for you if you have not read them) from Scripture, catechisms, Church documents, decrees, Popes, bishops, priests, theologians, doctors of the church, church fathers that back up what we’re saying.

If you have nothing further to say beyond name calling, then I see this discussion as over.

So surprise, surprise after reading all about tongues, being talked to by people or at least having met those who prayed in tongues and setting the theme of the retreat for the holy spirit they started praying in tongues. If you honestly think that after all that they didn’t seek the gift ot tongues then you need to brush up your deduction skills.

No, may of them didn’t. It came as a surprise to many of them. Listen to his talk… ctkcc.libsyn.com/holy_spirit_dave_mangan He wasn’t expecting to speak in tongues at that moment, but it happened.

 

[mlz]

Ok, so I said I wasn’t going to continue responding, thinking it didn’t matter, those against were firmly against, those for firmly promoting, but no middle ground…therefore, discussion closed. BUT… I am seeing an opening of discussion now so I can’t help but give only witness and that’s all for now. What the Holy Spirit can do is a mystery. God can work beyond our understanding because as mentioned in Isiah “His ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.” so…God moves in ways we may find “mysterious”. So is the movement of His Holy Spirit. HE has touched me through the Charismatic Movement and this has caused me to seek Him after many years to His Church. It is a mystery, yes, but it IS the move of His Spirit within me through the Charismatic renewal. So don’t be so adament against this…HE works beyond our understanding and we need to REJOICE and be glad in His goodness. God, through His Holy Spirit and through the Charismatic Renewal has drawn this child of His to the Catholic faith…!!! Don’t doubt, have faith. This is only my testimony which I hope you will respect.

Blessings in Him,
mlz

 

[guanophore]

A reading comprehension problem, you could just say a ‘mistake’ but then lack of charity is the hallmark of those who defend this bizzare movement.

No, it is beyond “a” mistake. You read the accounts of those who were present, and understand them differently than every one else who reads them. You have repeatedly posted an account by Patti Gallagher-Mansfield, and keep insisting that she was “seeking gifts”, when there is nothing like that in the account.

Which they got by copying the practices of heretics? Maybe they should have started saying the rosary or the crown of the blessed virgin mary or practicing the Sacred Heart Devotion or indeed any of the many, many approved and CATHOLIC devotions that the Church possesses. Why you would forsake this and follow the practice of heretics is beyond me

jmj, I know it is probably hard for you to understand this, but Catholics have been gathering in homes to pray since the Upper Room. Gathering with others to pray is not a “practice of heretics”. It happens to be one of the Catholic practices that was retained by our separated brethren.

In February, 1967, during a Duquesne University student retreat at The Ark and the Dove Retreat House outside of Pittsburgh, PA, one of the students, Patti Gallagher-Mansfield felt drawn to pray before the Blessed Sacrament in the chapel. She, and a number of other students who had joined her were later found prostrate before the Tabernacle. There, before Jesus’ Eucharistic presence, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal was born. They had all been overwhelmed by the majesty, power and presence of God. The movement spread rapidly throughout the United States and the world. It is estimated that today in excess of 75 million Catholics worldwide have had contact with this renewal and have experienced their own personal Pentecost.

This may also come as a surprise to you, since you seem to know little about Protestants, but Presbyterians, Methodists, Pentecostals, and other Evangelicals don’t believe in the Blessed Sacrament. They do not have Blessed Sacrament Chapels, and they do not prostrate themselves before a Tabernacle. These practices are uniquely Catholic.

‘They speak in tongues’ I wonder what that could be about… As for the cross and the switchblade, the author was a well known heretic and the book inevitably projects his own heretical views being as it is a religious book.

It is against the forum rules to call names, jmj, and the use of the word heretic in relation to our separated brethren is strictly prohibited. In using it, you also persistently defy the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which clearly indicates that persons who are reared in separated communities cannot be charged in this way. David Wilkerson was never Catholic, and was never associated with the One, Holy, and Aposotlic Church. This being the case, he cannot be charged with willful rejection of that which he has never known.

As for the book of Acts, I don’t remember anyone questioning its authority

Have you read it recently? Now might be a good time.

And pray tell me how do they judge whether they have this work in their lives? Oh thats right by having the gifts

No, jmj. We are all in agreement that there are other sources of such phenomena besides God. We shall know them by their fruits. Patti Gallagher-Mansfield has lived the last 40 years of her life in service to the Church, just as she promised to do when she was prostrate on the floor in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Yes, she has used the gifts that were given to her for this purpose, but the fruit of the Spirit does not always follow the gifts.

You did not answer my question, jmj. What is it about the desire to have the Holy Spirit more present in one’s life that is “heretical”? Do you find this prayer heretical?

On my knees before the great multitude of heavenly witnesses, I offer myself soul and body to Thee, Eternal Spirit of God. I adore the brightness of Thy purity, the unerring keenness of Thy justice, and the might of Thy love. Thou art the Strength and Light of my soul. In Thee I live and move and am. I desire never to grieve Thee by unfaithfulness to grace, and I pray with all my heart to be kept from the smallest sin against Thee. Mercifully guard my every thought and grant that I may always watch for Thy light and listen to Thy voice and follow Thy gracious inspirations. I cling to Thee and give myself to Thee and ask Thee by Thy compassion to watch over me in my weakness. Holding the pierced Feet of Jesus and looking at His Five Wounds and trusting in His Precious Blood and adoring His opened Side and stricken Heart, I implore Thee Adorable Spirit, helper of my infirmity, so to keep me in Thy grace that I may never sin against Thee. Give me grace O Holy Spirit, Spirit of the Father and the Son, to say to Thee always and everywhere, Speak Lord, for Thy servant heareth. Amen.

Sorry? What happened to the people who came back from the first prayer meeting and encouraged the others?

Let’s look again at the source you are using, since you seem to have trouble comprehending what is written:

“Two of these professors served as moderators of Chi Rho, and although they did not tell us outright about their charismatic experience, those who knew them well noticed that they radiated a new joy.”

They experienced a life changing encounter with the Holy Spirit, and people noticed their joy. Do you think it is uncatholic or heretical to radiate joy?

 

[guanophore]

Oh thats right they started praying in tongues…

That is not what the text says, jmj. It appears that you are projecting your own prejudices into the story.

And what book were they encouraged to read as regards the theme of the retreat? ‘They speak in tongues’. They couldn’t possibly be encouraging the gift of tongues as regards the Holy Spirit now, could they?.

I think you left something out…

“In preparation for the retreat, they told us to pray expectantly, to read The Cross and the Switchblade, and to read the first four chapters of the Acts of the Apostles.”

Is that second recommendation “pregnant with heresies”?

Let’s look at what else they did to prepare:

“As we gathered for each session, our professors told us to sing as a prayer the ancient hymn, Veni Creator Spiritus, “Come Creator Spirit”. On Friday night there was a meditation on Mary. Then we had a Penance Service. In John’s Gospel we read that when the Holy Spirit comes He will convict the world of sin. That’s what happened among us as we repented in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.”

Is this preparation “pregnant with heresies”?

“David Mangan proposed that we close our retreat by renewing our Confirmation…that we, as young adults, say our personal “yes” to the Holy Spirit.”

Oh my goodness! What a terrible “protestant” practice!

You can see why we are concerned that you have a reading comprehension problem. Not only are the things you claim not in the text, but you cannot seem to accept what IS in the text!

Your posts demonstrate a willful a blindness, frankly you are not a catholic but a charasmatic, your charasmatic beliefs have become in your mind ‘De Fide’ and of as much dogmatic weight as the creed.
jmj1984;8425064:

In the creed I said at Mass today, it says:

We believe in one God…and in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spoke through the prophets…

There is no dichotomy for me between what is in Scripture, and the Creed, and the beliefs I espouse.

And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets.
jmj1984;8425064:

A prayer meeting between catholics and heretics that lasted for several days and during which catholics were prayed over by non-catholics and taught non-catholic dogma? Yes I'm pretty sure thats forbidden.

You seem to be confused, jmj. I don’t know if re-reading this article can help you, but just to clarify for others reading the thread:

“The students who attended the retreat, were not prayed over by anyone. It was when they entered the Adoration Chapel, during the nightly Exposition, of the Blessed Sacrament…”

And again, you are inappropriately applying the term “heretic”. Both because the definition does not fit, and because it is against the forum rules.

There was no “non-Catholic dogma” taught at the retreat. It is clear from the text what was taught and practiced.

…Catholics already are, its called Baptism and confirmation, no speaking gibberish and running around or falling over is going to increase someones immersion in the holy spirit

Catholics are sealed by the HS in baptism, but they do not retain a state of “immersion”. Any form of sin, but especially mortal sin, will interfere with the indwelling presence of God in the soul. Sin separates us from God. We are continually called to repentance and reconciliation precisely because we do not remain “immersed”. I agree, though, speaking gibberish does not increase someones immersion in the HS. Tongues are not gibberish, though they may seem like it to others. Falling over is just something that happens sometimes when a person is overcome by the presence of God. This happened to the temple guards that came to arrest Jesus in the garden.

You are now just out and out lying, which as you know is a serious sin. No one ever said that the Book of Acts was heresy, your entire argument has been made by ignoring the facts, lying and insulting others. If these are the fruits of the movement then I think its pretty clear where it comes from…

You referred to the two books they were asked to read to prepare for the retreat. One of those was the first four chapters of the book of Acts. I can see from this post that you erroneously thought one of them was “They Speak with Other Tongues”. Be that as it may, I am still waiting for you to post the “pregnant heresies” in that book, as well as the Cross and the Switchblade.

 

[ClayPots47]

Yeah to be honest I’ve just given up with most of the charasmatics in this discussion and put them on the ignore list, if this was a court of law their case would have been thrown out a few days ago and from a purely theological perspective their lack of knowledge and ignorance about the catholic faith is astounding. Their willingless to engage in ad hominem attacks and jump on other people is not entirely helpful either.

If this was a court of law, your ‘case’ would equally be thrown out as well. BTW, your willingless to engage in ad hominem attacks and jump on other people is not entirely helpful either, as well. Before you point out the splinters in others eyes, kindly remove the beam from yours. You are in no way innocent of doing exactly what you accuse others of, including lying.

 

[ClayPots47]

This Charismatic “laying of the hands” is a mockery of the sacrament of Confirmation, imo and many others.

And we Charismatics don’t give an iota what your opinion is, there have been three popes (P6, JP2 and B16) who have in total given over 22 addresses to adherents of the movement, the RCC allows it. Other than thread crapping, what is your purpose for saying this? BTW, the “laying on of hands” as the charismatics do it, isn’t even remotely related to any sacrament; you would do well to know what you are talking about, rather than making what amounts to idiocy (because it makes you look like a fool). The "laying on of hands occurs when one prayers over another, Confirmation as a sacrament that involves much, much more. And there isn’t even a “laying on of hands” like the Charismatics do, as part of receiving the sacrament. Charismatics lay hands on the arm or shoulder of the person, or hold their hand, or place a hand on the upper back. It is strictly a prayer posture when interceding on behalf of the individual who’s being prayer over and for. For the recipient of the prayer, it is a means of comfort and care. During Confirmation, the Bishop lays hands on the head, and anoints the forehead of the person receiving the sacrament with chrism. They are so completely different from one another, to claim what Charismatics do is a mockery of what the bishop does, is both disingenuous and a strawman fallacy. Unlike apples and oranges, which are both fruits, even if they are different; Charismatic prayer and Confirmation are not even fruits. One is a sacrament, the other is a prayer posture. If it were a mockery as you claim (and just who are these “others” you claim to speak for?), then I would think that the above Holy Fathers would not have given their blessings and support to the CCR, let alone allowing it to exist.

 

[ClayPots47]

I find it troubling that the defenders of the CCR do not except the fact that gifts such as “speaking in tongues” had ceased. Again, I will present to them CLEAR teaching that this is indeed true.

Those who were confirmed by the Apostles usually gave evidence of the grace which they received by prophecy, the gift of tongues and the manifestation of other miraculous powers. It may be asked; Why do not these gifts accompany now the imposition of hands? I answer: Because they are no longer needed. The grace which the Apostolic disciples received was for their personal sanctification. The gift of tongues which they exercised was intended by Almighty God to edify and enlighten the spectators, and to give Divine sanction to the Apostolic ministry. But now that the Church is firmly established, and the Divine authority of her ministry is clearly recognized, these miracles are no longer necessary. St. Gregory illustrates this point by a happy comparison: As the sapling, he says, when it is first planted is regularly watered by the gardener, who softens the earth around it, that the sun and the moisture may nourish its roots until it takes deep root and it no longer requires any special care, so the Church in her infancy had to be nourished by the miraculous power of God. But after it had taken root in the hearts of the people and spread its branches over the earth it was left to the ordinary agencies of Providence.

I do not accept the fact that gifts such as “speaking in tongues” had ceased because your “clear teaching” has been superseded by more recent teaching, so you are not correct to make the claim you do.

I give you Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, (now B16).

At the heart of a world imbued with a rationalistic skepticism, a new experience of the Holy Spirit suddenly burst forth. And, since then, that experience has assumed a breadth of a worldwide Renewal movement. What the New Testament tells us about the charisms - which were seen as visible signs of the coming of the Spirit - is not just ancient history, over and done with, for it is once again becoming extremely topical.

And I would, dare say, that the last line clearly speaks for itself!