Definition of faith: Catholic and Protestant

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Wannano:

Actually MagdalenaRita, it was a very unacceptable analogy. Maybe being an ex-Protestant explains why for he may of had limited education!

It was certainly lacking in charity.
As for his education, we don’t know because for some reason @MagdalenaRita won’t reveal the tradition of the former pastor. That would help us understand more clearly the context of the analogy.

I will admit I was being a bit facetious because of the numerous posts pointing out how so many Protestant pastors have so little education. An uneducated ex-Protestant who becomes a Catholic Theologian is an uneducated theologian.

Knowing the denomination of the pastor may give a clue but by the same token I have worked with clergy of all types in my career and I have met some very ignorant highly educated types and some very profound and well balanced not so highly educated types. But I agree, the context of the analogy is coming from some interesting perspective if it was actually presented here in a factual outline.

Yeah, I got the intent of your post, but I’m hoping that our friend will reveal the pastor’s tradition background.
While I think extended education for clergy is vital - church history, Latin, Greek, etc. - I’ve had similar experiences to yours.

 

[mcq72]

One thing for sure, when desiring to posses saving faith when facing one’s own natural lack of it and the consequences thereof (separation from God), and that due to a preaching of the Word, even the old Baltimore Catechism had it right with this:

"What is faith ?"​

“Faith is a gift from God.”

His gracious gift would not seem so sweet if not for the vanity and anguish of the self trying ( to be righteous before God) that preceded it. That is, you have to stop trying before you really start freely receiving such faith.

Only then are you truly born again.

Can’t be a worm and a butterfly at the same time.

PS. Even a worm has it’s value, it’s good works, but…

 

[mcq72]

Per protestant theology God covers the car with a huge cover and declares it fixed.

Have only heard this from Catholics about P’s.

God indeed makes a new thing (a new car)…“behold , all things are new”, we are a “new creation”, by a new birth (of the spirit)

God does not take a pig and wash him up and dress him up continually thru life till he gets better and better in not soiling himself again. God makes the pig a new creature, that actually then hates the mud, though that fricition between the two natures (spirit and flesh) must be walked out, till that glorious day when we shall be fully ,and forever like Him.

 

[guanophore]

Personally I rather follow the word of God than the Catschism which says, For it is by grace you are saved through faith. And this is not of yourselves, but it is a gift of God; not because of works least any man should boast. Ephesians 2 : 8,9.

welcome to CAF Lwamsfarr51.

The Catholic Catechism is rooted in the Word of God. Did you know that the New Testament was written by, for, and about Catholics? Did you know there is noting in the Scripture that is contradicted by the Catholic faith?

I can’t wrap my head around the reverse: if our works are literally nothing more than the manifestation of our faith and are entirely and utterly meaningless and worthless to our justification, why is so much ink spilled in the New Testament about how to behave as Christians?

What you refer to as “meaningless” is a critical point for Protestants, most of whom believe a valid, saving faith is only evidenced by the works that befit repentance. If one’s faith is NOT manifested in good works, then it is a “dead” faith.

The other point is that, during the Reformation, Protestant theologians separated Justification from Sanctification. They see Justification as something that happens one point in time, and the part upon which “so much ink is spilled” is Sanctification, which is also God’s will for us.

 

[guanophore]

If we’re justified by faith alone, why bother praising God? Seems like a waste of effort.

Because God has saved us for this very purpose. Only a life lived walking by the Spirit glorifies Him, and honors the sacrifice on the cross.

Ah, so once again, we’re back to the point that the saving kind of faith naturally causes works and praise. So, again, why do we need to be told to do either of them? After all, they’ll just happen with a living faith. No need to spill so much ink in the Bible on instructions for how to live.

Human beings, though infused with the Holy Spirit when we are justified, still struggle with the “flesh” (catholics call it concpiscence) which does not follow the desires of the Spirit. We are also a battleground where spiritual warfare wages with not just the flesh, but the world and the devil.

I am puzzled why you would think that baby Christians would not need instruction on how to live? Jesus said to go out and make disciples, meaning they don’t just erupt out of the baptismal font fully mature.

 

[guanophore]

But if we are justified by faith alone, why does it even matter how well we understand how to work and praise?

You have been given good answers to this, you just don’t want to accept them.

if real faith automatically leads to works, why do we need exhortation to works? After all, that real faith will just make them suddenly start happening. No instructions needed!

The desire to please God does not equate to the knowledge of how to do so. A child may want to please his parents, but needs to be instructed in the expectations and how to meet them.

I think you are willfully misconstruing the nature of saving faith leading to good works.

Catholics tend to separate faith from works

This seems very odd to me. I have never met a Catholic that does this.

From the formula I’ve seen several times that to Catholics Justification=Faith+Works . Would you agree that is an accurate formula?

I have seen it too. I don’t like it, but it is used. It is not a 'separation" though. It saying “faith, working through love”.

it is my understanding that Catholics believe initial justification is completely a work of grace apart from our effort.

Not completely. We believe that there must be an expression of faith to enter into that grace.

 

[fbl9]

Being in a state of grace i give unto my nieghbour out of love. Knowing that this will increase (grow) grace does not cause it so. It is this active love of neighbour that causes the growth.
Giving to one’s neighbour for the sole desire of an increase in grace does not do so. For the love expressed is incomplete. It is a love for God and self.

 

[JonNC]

The other point is that, during the Reformation, Protestant theologians separated Justification from Sanctification. They see Justification as something that happens one point in time, and the part upon which “so much ink is spilled” is Sanctification, which is also God’s will for us.

Oddly enough, my personal experience, anecdotal though it may be, is that justification cannot be identified by a single or particular event or specific time. I just know that my faith predates my memory because of my Baptism, and that my faith has grown since then. If justification is a singular once and done event, I certainly can’t p(name removed by moderator)oint it.

 

[HopkinsReb]

I am puzzled why you would think that baby Christians would not need instruction on how to live? Jesus said to go out and make disciples, meaning they don’t just erupt out of the baptismal font fully mature.

This is kind of my point. I’m not making an antinomian point; I’m picking at the conclusions that naturally arise from saying “faith alone” without hammering constantly at the necessary definition of faith to make that doctrine defensible. I think OP did a really nice job of providing it.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

It was certainly lacking in charity.
As for his education, we don’t know because for some reason @MagdalenaRita won’t reveal the tradition of the former pastor. That would help us understand more clearly the context of the analogy.

There was nothing uncharitable about the analogy at all. Yes it is true that there are many different theologies among protestants, but for the most part all believe in “faith alone”. I was at different times Methodist, Lutheran, Mennonite, Baptist, Evangelical and lastly Church of Christ non-denominational and always was taught “faith alone” and the word “works” was never mentioned as it understood by Catholics.

The pastor I heard the analogy from is an ex-Episcopalian priest.

Explaining again, quotes first from Martin Luther:

“When God’s righteousness is mentioned in the gospel, it is God’s action of declaring righteous the unrighteous sinner who has faith in Jesus Christ. The righteousness by which a person is justified (declared righteous) is not his own but that of another, Christ.”
That is the analogy of the car being declared fixed or healed at that moment.

“This most excellent righteousness – that of faith, I mean – which God imputes (assigns) to us through Christ, without works”.
Again, the car being fixed without being taken to a garage but being “declared” fixed at that moment. The car then can run and keep going.

During my protestant years I frequently heard the story of Jonathan and David in 1 Samual 18 described as a type of our being covered in righteousness. As Jonathan putting his robe on David.

Also, Isaiah 61:10 says: I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness,

Nothing insulting or uncharitable here.

To Catholics though, faith alone is incomplete and we believe faith and works together are needed for salvation.

James 2: 21-24 - We are not saved by faith alone. You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,

Understanding of salvation requires:

Justification - born into the Church as a child of God, a change where sins are truly forgiven and cleansed particularly in the sacrament of Baptism and the sacrament of penance.
1 Peter 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
This would be where the car is covered. Christ’s righteousness is given but we must continue. We must persevere in being made whole.

Sanctification - growing in holiness, grace upon grace, works, penances, sacraments, indulgences, carry our cross daily and persevering to the end, purgatory… The last day of our lives being the most important day of our life. The state in which we die is extremely important.
This is where the car is growing and becoming whole through the work of repairs.

and Glorification - seeing the beautific Vision. Entering heaven

God bless

 

[mcq72]

Again, the car being fixed without being taken to a garage but being “declared” fixed at that moment

Sorry, but I would think that a saving encounter with Christ is not only being taken to the “garage” but also touched by the “master mechanic”. (like your statement “God takes the car and makes it whole again”).

What is fixed at that moment ?

Justification is conferred in baptism

So by works of righteousness we are justified, saved ?

 

[mcq72]

Again, the car being fixed without being taken to a garage but being “declared” fixed at that moment. The car then can run and keep going.

I am sure the pastor of this analogy would say yes , the car can keep on running, but that for sure you better keep gas in it, and keep up your oil changes and scheduled maintenances.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

So, my original post was meant to be just a very simple analogy. Not meant to be too deep, though sadly more was read into it than what is there but

also touched by the “master mechanic”

my understanding of the analogy is that the “master mechanic” is the who touches the car. The cover represents being touched by the righteousness of Christ.

So by works of righteousness we are justified, saved ?

Salvation is by faith and works. Not by faith alone, nor by works alone.

am sure the pastor of this analogy would say yes , the car can keep on running, but that for sure you better keep gas in it, and keep up your oil changes and scheduled maintenances.

yes, absolutely

 

[mcq72]

The last day of our lives being the most important day of our life. The state in which we die is extremely important.

Yes very powerful, even as stated in, “Mary, …, pray for us sinners , now and at the that hour of our death. Amen.”

This perpetual work to stay in the state of grace.

Where is such a yolk easy ?

Would the Pharisees have reveled in this ?

Such a fine balance between the touch of the Master Mechanic and His work, and our own in the garage and its certified mechanics.

Hasn’t that always been the challenge since the fall at the garden ? When are we covering our own “nakedness”, and when is He ?

 

[mcq72]

Salvation is by faith and works. Not by faith alone, nor by works alone.

Again, like the analogy, simple, not meant to go deep.

Faith alone, as stated by Luther, must be kept in his context.

Indeed there are verses that faith and works justify you , save you. There, are others that state that faith justifies you , saves you. And there is the verse that says by works of righteousness no one is saved.

I believe P theology has all those bases covered. C theology is close but stresses your simplicity of “faith and works”. It was rebutted buy another simplicity , “faith alone”. They deserve each other, but keep division, until you go a little deeper. Then the divide does not disappear, but certainly shrinks

I remember hearing a sermon by Rev. Richard Wurmbrand entitled , “the Power of Nothing”, inspired while a prisoner in solitary confinement, under communist rule. He came to understand the sufficiency of his relationship with Christ, apart from any of his works, rituals, even church.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

He came to understand the sufficiency of his relationship with Christ, apart from any of his works, rituals, even church.

In all charity, being without any of those things is not biblical, as we already saw in James 2 and then also in 1 Timothy 3:15:

1 Timothy 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

Jesus gifted us with the Church for our salvation, to know truth.

Earlier I posted that the word alone is one of the biggests differences between Catholics and protestants and while i still believe that, I think the word “authority” is another huge word that distinques the differences.

In all charity, without the authority of the Catholic church, as Jesus gave us, our beliefs are simply what we choose.

 

[JonNC]

There was nothing uncharitable about the analogy at all. Yes it is true that there are many different theologies among protestants, but for the most part all believe in “faith alone”.

You’ve been told by posters that it comes across that way. That might not have been the intent.
To say they all believe in faith alone is simplistic.

I was at different times Methodist, Lutheran, Mennonite, Baptist, Evangelical and lastly Church of Christ non-denominational and always was taught “faith alone” and the word “works” was never mentioned in a positive light. (except for maybe in the Church of Christ)

Im sorry you were so poorly catechized.

The Augsburg Confession · BookOfConcord.org

Our teachers are falsely accused of forbidding Good Works. For their published writings on the Ten Commandments, and others of like import, bear witness that they have taught to good purpose concerning all estates and duties of life, as to what estates of life and what works in every calling be pleasing to God.

And,

http://www.bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php#IV. Good Works.

1. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.

 

[MichaelP3]

This is a very Good question. Catholics many many times on here do not regard faith in the same way “Protestants” do. Actually they do not realise how much they do regard faith. The very circular argument that we see so many times can only be ended by believing and hence… faith.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

You’ve been told by posters that it comes across that way. That might not have been the intent.
To say they all believe in faith alone is simplistic.

Again, and with all charity, I am sorry if it came out that way for the couple of posters but I truly think that there is so much more being read into my post than what is there.

Plus, I was asked by one of the posters to explain, tell the denomination of the pastor and describe my own protestant history, which is why I responded again. I did not want to but I was asked to, otherwise I would not have.

To be honest with you, I am finding some of the responses uncharitable and insulting. I never said tarp in my post as one person said I did and I never said faith alone is simplistic, but that my analogy was just a simple analogy.

I was asked to respond again and explain and that is what I did.

Isiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, KJV

God bless.

 

[mcq72]

In all charity, being without any of those things is not biblical, as we already saw in James 2 and then also in 1 Timothy 3:15:

of course, he was a reverend, saved by the Word, as delivered by the church. He knew His anchor, beyond initial “contact”/salvation, and knew where his hope lied in, and that Christ is much more than an institution, or a ritual or sacrament…i believe the CC agrees with this.