Delatinizing the Syro Malabar Church

[Phillip_Rolfes]

While on the one hand I agree with you, on the other hand I would ask you to specify which Latin dogmas are incompatible with Orthodoxy. I’ve heard from and talked to too many Orthodox scholars and hierarchs that admit that the only Latin dogmas that are a legitimate stumbling block are Papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction.

 

[matjam]

I belong to the Syro Malabar Catholic church and I love everything about the liturgy and practices and love it as it is. Syro Malabar Church is predominant in Kerala. There is also a strong community of Latin and Syro Malankara Catholics. When there is an opportunity I am happy to attend mass in any of these rites. I see only the catholic church in these rites. So why should it be delatinised? What do you mean by that?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Oh well… first things first, Latinization is clearly bad and wrong… however…

If the faithful did already accept Rosary and pray it, if Priests see it fit to learn Western theology or anything like that… it isn’t necessarily latinization by itself… I will try to explain how I mean this.

Early Church, pre-schism Church, to some extent had more rites. Let’s say world was mostly split between Greeks and Latins, but Copts existed as well… so did Armenians and so did Maronites. During these times, adopting each other’s practice was not viewed as wrong at all. In the end, Church was Church. Put in today’s terms, if Rosary was beneficial to Latins, Greeks would want to benefit from that too. If stricter fasting worked for Greeks, Latin Bishops enforcing it would not be viewed as wrong. Church was not uniform even between the Rites and syncretism of Rites was far too common. It was not viewed as a threat at all and not as taking each other’s identity apart… but it was not forced. First time someone ever tried to force discipline of one rite on other Rites universally was when Greeks called Council of Trullo. They wanted to make the Church uniform and obviously that was not a good thing.

Now taken from that context, if someone forces Latinization, it is wrong… to the same extent Easternization (or what’s the word) is. Forcing Epiclesis unto Latin Rite or forcing leavened bread unto Latin Rite would be straight up wrong. There is only one thing Church can not compromise at, and that is dogmatics. Rites all share same divine Truth, same dogma. If it is true there is One Triune God in Latin Church, it is equally true in Greek Church. If it is true that Pope has infallibility it is true in all rites, same with Our Lady being unstained by sin, same with Final Purification of souls. Simply speaking one can not deny truth just because his Rite expresses it differently. This part is problematic with those who have left the Church and rejoined, as too often they look at their separated brethren and take dogmas and theological approaches from them. Some Eastern Catholics would now deny “through the Son” theology which was, until Patriarch Photius, very integral part of Eastern theology. Such things happen because one wants to look more Eastern or more Latin (as with some Latins denying Eastern practices as well, sadly) or more than looking Catholic, looking Christian. Expressions may differ but essence remains. Otherwise one could run from dogmas to another Rite. It would create situations akin to where sedevacantists run to Eastern Catholic Churches to escape Novus Ordo but end up disregarding Eastern Christianity as well. How much more important is to prevent escaping from dogmas than escaping from liturgy!

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

perhaps if you want to delatinize the Eastern Catholic Churches maybe don’t force them to accept Latin dogmas?

I may have taken this the wrong way… but what do you mean? If one disagrees with some Latin dogma he can just switch to Eastern Catholic Church and ignore it? Pope is infallible for Latin Catholic but not for Eastern Catholic? Western Orthodox Christians were not only forced to adopt Orthodox dogmas, but also their practices of leavened bread and so, Easternization in Orthodox Church far outweighs Latinization in Catholic Church… only reason it is not viewed as such a problem is that there are so few of Western Orthodox and there is no way to solve it globally anyway.

And if it’s not clear, yes, I’m offended by this condescending bigotry . . .

I do consider that being from misinformation and not in a bad will. I understand that you got offended, but it might be better to clearly explain things rather than go offensive yourself.

I personally don’t accept the latin views of Purgatory and nor do I accept the fact that Eastern Catholic churches are even NAMED after the Immaculate Conception. I myself believe the Miaphysitism is not heresy and even compatible with Catholic teaching!

Yeah… honestly I do kind of view naming of Churches after Immaculate Conception to be a bit off, but in the end your tradition holds that view in different expression- and so Churches should be named according to that expression. Miaphysitism is alright apparently… I long for day where our Miaphysite brothers and sisters will be in full communion with us once again.

 

[catholic03]

Some suggest that aspects of Latinisation should not be removed from the Eastern Churches because by virtue of their existence in said Churches, they have thus become a part of the depository of tradition in said Churches.

Not saying I agree with that, but it’s an interesting aspect.

 

[ziapueblo]

Oh well… first things first, Latinization is clearly bad and wrong… however…

However?!?!

If a Latin wants to personally follow stricter fasting rules, go for it. If a Byzantine, Orthodox or Catholic wants to privately recite the rosary, feel free, more power to you. However, replacing traditional Byzantine or any other Eastern Catholic liturgical devotions with Latin ones? Never, should not happen! This is against the teachings of Rome, from Vatican II to the present day.

ZP

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I would only add that it’s against the teachings of Rome since before Vatican II. I believe Pope Leo XIII is the one who really started the process. The thing is, this process should’ve never needed to have been started in the first place.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

However , replacing traditional Byzantine or any other Eastern Catholic liturgical devotions with Latin ones? Never, should not happen! This is against the teachings of Rome, from Vatican II to the present day.

Rite is defined by Bishops, by history, by tradition- but most of all, by people. If entirety of Byzantine Catholic population wants Rosary in their tradition, it is. If entirety of Latin Church wants epiclesis in their tradition, it is. Rites should be allowed to syncretize and flow naturally- stopping their flow is as bad as forcing it. That is what I meant by “however”. To refrain from something just because Latins used it first is not right, neither the reverse.

I believe Pope Leo XIII is the one who really started the process.

Forced latinizations are against what Pope Leo XIII taught. Not necessarily natural change of Rite.

 

[ziapueblo]

Rites should be allowed to syncretize and flow naturally- stopping their flow is as bad as forcing it.

This is exactly what has happened with the Byzantine rite. Check out Sister Vassa’s introductory videos in the Divine Liturgy.

The problem with your “natural change of Rite” idea is that it always seems to be Byzantines becoming more Latin. Why is it that some Roman Catholics just cannot accept they Eastern Catholics are different and that it is okay? I suspect it is Catholic Answers Radio and Roman Catholic apologetics? When I was Roman Catholic and neck deep into Roman Catholic apologetics I felt as if I was betrayed by all the “pop” RC apologists because I discovered that Catholic was far more than just Roman and that other Catholics practiced a faith that did not look like mine, and that the Church said this was not only acceptable but necessary.

ZP

 

[Elias]

Okay well I already asked you people to help me understand and give me a link to this papal teaching. Where is it? Because, for the life of me, I cannot find it.

Secondly, how is the Akathist of the Theotokos any different from the Holy Rosary?

And, again, which of our practices do you request we drop to make room?

Why do you assume something needs to be dropped from your rites in order to pray the rosary? It’s not a zero sum game.

Thridly, I fail to see how it can so offensive that I ask you at least pray the rosary. If you asked me to pray the Jesus prayer on a prayer rope i would have no problems, yet the other way around you act like I committed a hate crime.

 

[Elvis_George]

Why delatinise? Cause latinisation undermines our east syrian traditions and calls for its destruction and such

 

[Elvis_George]

The point you make about easternization is called Hypocrisy. The Orthodox (Besides the Syriac and Malankara Orthodox) are trying to aboltion uniatism but not easternisation or western orthodoxy! Hypocrisy!

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

This is exactly what has happened with the Byzantine rite. Check out Sister Vassa’s introductory videos in the Divine Liturgy.

Then it should be removed. However, not everything that comes from Latin Rite is wolf in sheep’s clothing… sometimes it’s just a sheep.

Why delatinise? Cause latinisation undermines our east syrian traditions and calls for its destruction and such

If that is the case, then de-latinize the heck out of that. Of course, syncretism of Rites is there to protect the Church and Tradition, not to undermine it. Priorities exist.

 

[Elvis_George]

Rome supports delatinisation hands down but whether the bishops do is in question. While most do support it, many bishops in central Kerala and North India do not value these ancient traditions so if Rome gives us bishops that are dedicated to their traditions like Mar Joseph Karallangatt,we could fix this. Notice how the removal of veils and the qurbana being celebrated facing the people was only put into place we gained our own bishops and not under the See of Verapoly or the portuguese!

 

[Elias]

Rome supports delatinisation hands down

Okay, this will be the 3rd time I ask this question in this thread. Please, can someone please give me a link where Rome/The Pope/The Vatican talks about delatinization or the need to delatinize non-western catholic churches.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...cree_19641121_orientalium-ecclesiarum_en.html

Read the whole thing, but, as I said in a previous post, pay special attention to paragraph 6.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Okay well I already asked you people to help me understand and give me a link to this papal teaching. Where is it? Because, for the life of me, I cannot find it.

Us people?..

Earlier I pointed you to paragraph 6 of Orientalium Ecclesiarium. Are you upset because I didn’t include a link in my initial post? A simple Google search would’ve pointed you to the document directly on the Vatican’s website. And be aware that it’s a document from Vatican II, so it is official Church teaching.

The Akathist is very different from the Rosary. It’s a rather lengthy hymn, a poetic meditation on the life of the Mother of God and her Divine Son. Get on YouTube and see if you can find an English version of it. It’s well worth listening to.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Why do you assume something needs to be dropped from your rites in order to pray the rosary? It’s not a zero sum game.

Thridly, I fail to see how it can so offensive that I ask you at least pray the rosary. If you asked me to pray the Jesus prayer on a prayer rope i would have no problems, yet the other way around you act like I committed a hate crime.

First, we are not “rites,” we are churches sui iuris. Again, read all of Orientalium Ecclesiarium.

Secondly, no one is asking you to pray the Jesus Prayer (unless you’d like to). But Eastern Catholics have a long history of having Latin traditions forced on us in order to make us “more Catholic.” For example, when the Crusaders came upon the Maronites, they suspected us of being Myaphysites, and so burnt many of our liturgical books. The Roman Canon was then translated into Syriac and we were made to use it. Eastern Catholics in Ukraine at one point were martyred by their Roman Catholic brethren because they were suspected of being Orthodox (and thus supporters of Moscow) simply because we weren’t Roman Catholic. This is just a small illustration to try and help you understand why the issue of Latinization is such a sensitive topic for many of us.

I would simply add once more that Roman Catholics aren’t even obligated to pray the Rosary, and you can have a fulfilling and complete spiritual life without it (the saints did for centuries until the Rosary was finally developed).

 

[dochawk]

Why would a Syro-Malabar parish have a public Akathist? This is a prayer of the Greek Rite.

That’s not what I mean.

Rather, before @Elias demands that other churches keep the latinization of his favorite Marian private devotion, his church should adopt another church’s. Not as a serious suggestion, but to show how outrageous the demand was.

Okay well I already asked you people to help me understand and give me a link to this papal teaching. Where is it? Because, for the life of me, I cannot find it.

Oriental Lumen would be a start.

Secondly, how is the Akathist of the Theotokos any different from the Holy Rosary?

What it has in common is devotion to Mary.

It is a series of exchanges between the priest and people, with censing. It’s just a different creature, and our heritage.

Thridly, I fail to see how it can so offensive that I ask you at least pray the rosary. If you asked me to pray the Jesus prayer on a prayer rope i would have no problems, yet the other way around you act like I committed a hate crime.

Why do you assume something needs to be dropped from your rites in order to pray the rosary? It’s not a zero sum game.

Again, we have five hundred years of being “asked” to do Latin things, which have uniformly turned out poorly and worse.

As mentioned above, the Rosary has tended to displace the hours before liturgy.

Five hundred years of history has shown that it is.

Typically, for example, Rosary before liturgy replaces the hours that are traditionally sung; it doesn’t simply add something
else.

 

[matjam]

I assume you are from Kerala since Syro Malabar church is predominant there. As I mentioned I belong to the same community too. I don’t have an in-depth understanding of these matters like you. To be honest, when I attend mass in any of these rites, I see only the catholic church and I love it as it is regardless of traditions. Jesus turns to bread and wine for us in each of these masses. That’s where my focus is.