Demanding proof of God

[CMatt25]

No, I wasn’t calling you Satan. That was obvious.

Thanks. It just wasn’t obvious to me since you quoted what I said and rephrased it into what you thought I meant and then said this was just an example of Satan to tempt. Peace.

 

[User124]

There is no way you can prove god to an atheist. He has to prove God to himself, mostly by opening his mind and his heart to God. So long as he doesn’t want to believe in God, for any one of a thousand reasons, he will not believe.

What we want to believe has nothing to do with this.

I would love to believe in an extraordinary place of happiness, love, no pain, I can get all knowledge I want, surf the universe, count the stars while catching the moon, touch the sun, I would like to believe in a lot of things that does not make any sense to my mind.
If you want to know what I like to believe, it would be far more than a god, but what we desire to believe isn’t a real deal in the search for truth.

 

[mgoforth]

What we want to believe has nothing to do with this.

I would love to believe in an extraordinary place of happiness, love, no pain, I can get all knowledge I want, surf the universe, count the stars while catching the moon, touch the sun, I would like to believe in a lot of things that does not make any sense to my mind.
If you want to know what I like to believe, it would be far more than a god, but what we desire to believe isn’t a real deal in the search for truth.

No, it has everything to do with it…you say you’d like to believe in those things, but I think what you really want is to know. Those are two different things entirely. None of us will ever know for a certainty that God exists within the span of this lifetime, because God is not a being that we can physically encounter with our senses. That’s why the desire to believe is so important.

If you want rock-solid proof for God’s existence, read the Summa Theologica by St Thomas Acquinas, and you will find some beautiful logical proofs.

But again, I think very few of the atheist “challengers” on these boards are open-minded enough to truly believe. You take the idea of God as an insult to your intelligence. Open-mindedness is a prerequisite, and if you don’t have it, you won’t find God. On the other hand, if you ever decide that you want to believe without physical evidence, you’ll find Him all around you.

 

[User124]

No, it has everything to do with it…you say you’d like to believe in those things, but I think what you really want is to know. Those are two different things entirely. None of us will ever know for a certainty that God exists within the span of this lifetime, because God is not a being that we can physically encounter with our senses. That’s why the desire to believe is so important.

If you want rock-solid proof for God’s existence, read the Summa Theologica by St Thomas Acquinas, and you will find some beautiful logical proofs.

But again, I think very few of the atheist “challengers” on these boards are open-minded enough to truly believe. You take the idea of God as an insult to your intelligence. Open-mindedness is a prerequisite, and if you don’t have it, you won’t find God. On the other hand, if you ever decide that you want to believe without physical evidence, you’ll find Him all around you.

That would be like playing on the psychological manner, I evaluated Thomas Acquinas “challenge”, any amateur atheist would easily debunk it.

You’re right about something, I want to know, I have two desires, a desire of imagining good things (It could be a part of imagination or believe) because it makes me as an emotional human feel good to dream and have goals even that I may not achieve them or that they may seem impossible, and a second desire for knowledge and learning as any intellectual person.

Would " I would like to imagine" be better? Belief and imagination may seem similar on many levels, you know.

 

[mgoforth]

That would be like playing on the psychological manner, I evaluated Thomas Acquinas “challenge”, any amateur atheist would easily debunk it.

I don’t understand what you’re trying to say. Are you saying you can debunk St Thomas’ logic? If so, please start that thread and send me a link to it. I’ll call your bluff on that.

You’re right about something, I want to know, I have two desires, a desire of imagining good things (It could be a part of imagination or believe) because it makes me as an emotional human feel good to dream and have goals even that I may not achieve them or that they may seem impossible, and a second desire for knowledge and learning as any intellectual person.

Would " I would like to imagine" be better? Belief and imagination may seem similar on many levels, you know.

No, belief and imagination are different things. I can imagine many things that I don’t believe to be true or have any existence outside my imagination. What you stated was that you’d like to believe in God but you can’t…now I think you’re trying to water that down to “imagining” things about God. I think you really have no desire at all to believe in God.

 

[TheCuriousCat]

Yes.

God wants it to be totally true, authentic and freely chosen not something forced into.

Take something simple.

If you feel like a steak & veggies and you freely chose it then you will probably enjoy it.
On the other hand If you would prefer a pizza and someone forces the steak and veggies on you chances are you won’t enjoy the steak & veggies.

God is so concerned with humanity freely chosing him that he won’t ever force us to make the choice and will allow us to live as if he was never there if that’s what we want

Hold on, what you said about the steak and veggies contradicts what you said earlier. You said that having a certain knowledge that God exists negates my ability to freely chose to have a relationship with him. Yet, now you are saying that I can freely choose to eat steak and veggies even though I have compelling evidence that steak and veggies exist.

On the one hand you are saying that you can’t make a free choice if you have certain knowledge, but then you go and give an example saying that it is possible to make a free choice regarding something I am certain of.

The notion that I have a greater freedom regarding whether I want to have a relationship with a potentially fictional being over one that I am certain exists seems absurd.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

INo, belief and imagination are different things.

I think where things get difficult is that, psychologically speaking, there’s not much of a difference between confident belief and knowledge if any at all. Imagination can start to influence belief or produce thoughts that are believed. Belief, knowledge, and imagination are not as compartmentalized as some would like for them to be.

 

[mgoforth]

I think where things get difficult is that, psychologically speaking, there’s not much of a difference between confident belief and knowledge if any at all.

There may not be a difference in the way the brain physically processes belief vs knowledge (although we have very little evidence about how the brain actually functions), but there is a clear logical difference between the two. Belief in an object’s existence would be unnecessary where there is perfect knowledge of that object’s existence. The problem is, we can never have perfect knowledge about anything. We don’t have the capacity to know anything for certain outside of our own existence. Cogito ergo sum.

Imagination can start to influence belief or produce thoughts that are believed. Belief, knowledge, and imagination are not as compartmentalized as some would like for them to be.

I don’t agree at all. Belief is an act of the will. I choose to believe that God exists. Imagination and knowledge can’t infect beliefs and cause them to change just because they share some of the same neural pathways. If my beliefs change, it’s because I made a choice (even if it’s an unconscious choice) to change them.

 

[Duns_Scotus]

Sorry if this has been answered or mentioned, but try wafting them towards CS Lewis’s Mere Christianity. An Anglican, I know, but it’s not really a denominational book, and much easier to get into than Aquinas, for a simple, clear, commonsense look at why there must be a God.

 

[HelenRose]

I have trouble understanding a person’s need for proof.
There is no “proof”

If proof were possible there would be no need for free-will.

The desire for proof must lie in pride. A fear that one will make a mistake and be foolish.

The fundamental doubt for me, and perhaps for many people, has been the existence of God.

For myself, I formed that question like this.

We exist - we are created - there is a creator.

Does that creator have intellect and will (desire)?
In another words: Are we dealing the laws of physics without will (desire) and without intellect? To pretend that this question does not lie at the heart of doubt would be a mistake.

It is not possible the argue this question. We can not prove nor disprove that a great intellect desired, planned and set forth the universe. That a great intellect with the desire to see the explosion of the Big Bang and the formation of stars and galaxies.

So where did that lead me?

I have reasoned that it takes intellect and the desire to learn and understand the universe, therefore it must have taken intellect and desire to create the universe.

I have also reasoned that I may be wrong but I have chosen my path leading to faith that affirms a purpose and a joy for life.

 

[CrimsonThorn]

Well you could certainly say it is God’s fault for not letting himself be known. If God exists, he obviously has the ability to prove it in an undeniable fashion.

As already states, no one gets certainty.

God gives us a test. He tutors us, helps us with our homework, and prepares us for that test which he wans to see us pass.

However, for those who want certainty… They are asking to bypass the test completely and asking God to give them an A+ just because.

 

[mgoforth]

As already states, no one gets certainty.

God gives us a test. He tutors us, helps us with our homework, and prepares us for that test which he wans to see us pass.

However, for those who want certainty… They are asking to bypass the test completely and asking God to give them an A+ just because.

I like that metaphor. Never thought of it that way, but you’re right. Asking for God to force us to believe in Him is pretty lazy. It’s like saying “I don’t care enough to search for the Truth, it’s too hard. If God’s out there He’s going to have to do everything to get me into Heaven, including making the choice to believe for me.”

 

[User124]

I don’t understand what you’re trying to say. Are you saying you can debunk St Thomas’ logic? If so, please start that thread and send me a link to it. I’ll call your bluff on that.

No, belief and imagination are different things. I can imagine many things that I don’t believe to be true or have any existence outside my imagination. What you stated was that you’d like to believe in God but you can’t…now I think you’re trying to water that down to “imagining” things about God. I think you really have no desire at all to believe in God.

I may try it later.

Imagination and needs are the main roots of most our creations including religions.

The Catholic god ? Yes, I have no desire at all even if he exists, to obey or follow such a god, and my non desire for that god came after my disbelief, not before it, in case you wanted to accuse me or other atheists, that “I stopped believing because I hated God”.

 

[shoe]

So, an atheist came up to me the other and demanded that I show the Atheist proof of God’s existence. I told him that the efforts of cause and effect were relevant to the circumstances that require the necessity of a being that would will something from nothing. Yet the atheist states,“This is not proof.”

I’m sure this doesn’t belong here, I’ll be content to know where it does so that I can post these sorts of questions there.

I simply didn’t know what more to say.

Can someone help me? I just don’t know what to say. And I would rather deal with this now before it causes me unnecessary apprehension.

-Karl

I think that to many atheists no amount of evidence for the existence of God would make any sense to them since they base their worldview on a belief system that does not only denies the existence of God, but also prevents them from objectively interpreting the obvious evidence in front of them; that is, if the interpretation of that evidence should run against their worldview.

Obvious evidence: “The heavens shew forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands. Day to day uttereth speech, and night to night sheweth knowledge. There are no speeches nor languages, where their voices are not heard. Their sound hath gone forth into all the earth: and their words unto the ends of the world” (Psalm 19:1-4).

Perhaps trying to make the deep things of God plain and comprehensible to an atheist can be likened to a science student at the college level attempting to explain the deep things of science to a preschooler. The science student can easily comprehend everything that the preschooler is saying, but the preschooler cannot comprehend the deep knowledge of the science student, at least for the present, as the words are beyond his level of understanding.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I don’t agree at all. Belief is an act of the will.

It’s influence by will (but not completely controlled by it). There are other influencers too (emotion, need for closure, chemical state, so on). It also seems to be confined to some set of mutable boundaries. For example, at this present state in time I’m not capable of believing that I am in Tahiti. There are those those that believe some of the rather disturbing perceptions that they experience. Act of will alone doesn’t always seem to be sufficient to disrupt these beliefs and so medication may be employed.

I choose to believe that God exists.

Okay.

Imagination and knowledge -]can’t/-] [can] -]infect /-] [influence] beliefs and cause them to change -]just because they share some of the same neural pathways./-]

I’m striking out part of that since I’ve not seen it asserted. Made some changes to the other part so that it matched what I had said.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

user

… but what we desire to believe isn’t a real deal in the search for truth.

Tell that to the Wright brothers who wanted to find out how to fly.

Tell that to Columbus who wanted to discover a new route to the Orient.

Tell that to a man who submits to chemotherapy because he wants to know if it will save him.

Tell that to someone who wants to believe in God and then discovers that he has found God.

Atheism is a dead end. It says no-god without even having truly begun the search.

 

[User124]

user

… but what we desire to believe isn’t a real deal in the search for truth.

Tell that to the Wright brothers who wanted to find out how to fly.

Tell that to Columbus who wanted to discover a new route to the Orient.

Tell that to a man who submits to chemotherapy because he wants to know if it will save him.

Tell that to someone who wants to believe in God and then discovers that he has found God.

Atheism is a dead end. It says no-god without even having truly begun the search.

You did not understand me, I can see.
Imagination and need (desire) are the greatest roots of best inventions, and I think one of our main inventions as humans were gods.

Believe in whatever you want, you’re free.

 

[djeter]

http://payingattentiontothesky.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/descartes.jpg?w=450

You’re talking about Descartes’ philosophy. “Cogito ergo sum”, right?

After passing twenty centuries as the very model of those self-evident facts that only a madman would ever dream of doubting, the existence of the external world finally received its metaphysical demonstration from Descartes. Yet no sooner had he demonstrated the existence of the external world than his disciples realized that, not only was his proof worthless, but the very principles which made such a demonstration necessary at the same time rendered the attempted proof impossible.

Continue the reading here…

 

[mgoforth]

I’m striking out part of that since I’ve not seen it asserted. Made some changes to the other part so that it matched what I had said.

Hey that looks fun. Let me try.

-]It’s influence by will (but not completely controlled by it). There are other influencers too (emotion, need for closure, chemical state, so on)./-] mgoforth is correct, and I’m wrong.

Yep, that really works! What a powerful tool for debating someone…

 

[interestedman]

As already states, no one gets certainty.

God gives us a test. He tutors us, helps us with our homework, and prepares us for that test which he wans to see us pass.

However, for those who want certainty… They are asking to bypass the test completely and asking God to give them an A+ just because.

I don’t need 100% certainty. Maybe just a REALLY good argument. Unfortunately there is no really good argument for the existence of God. Most arguments are either some sort of personal feeling that one has that proves God’s existence to them, a God of the gaps argument or maybe some argument like “the world is too beautiful to not have a God.” If you think about things rationally and objectively I don’t think there is a legit argument for the existence of God.