Demanding proof of God

[interestedman]

I like that metaphor. Never thought of it that way, but you’re right. Asking for God to force us to believe in Him is pretty lazy. It’s like saying “I don’t care enough to search for the Truth, it’s too hard. If God’s out there He’s going to have to do everything to get me into Heaven, including making the choice to believe for me.”

You are completely misunderstanding the mind state of many atheists. “I don’t care enough to search for the truth” is actually ironic and mildly amusing. I say it is ironic because most atheists are former believers and came to the conclusion that there is no God because they decided to search for the truth. If they were lazy they would have just stuck to whatever beliefs they were brought up with without even thinking twice about it.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Hey that looks fun. Let me try.

Yep, that really works! What a powerful tool for debating someone…

My apologies if it came across as inappropriate. There were some things in your statement that I was not arguing against (ex: I’ve not made reference to neural pathways). My intent was to show the difference between what I was saying and how it seemed to come across to minimize communication gap.

 

[interestedman]

I may try it later.

Imagination and needs are the main roots of most our creations including religions.

The Catholic god ? Yes, I have no desire at all even if he exists, to obey or follow such a god, and my non desire for that god came after my disbelief, not before it, in case you wanted to accuse me or other atheists, that “I stopped believing because I hated God”.

I stopped believing because I couldn’t rationally see any proof of God. And before I stopped believing I LOVED God. I even majored in religious studies in college because I was so interested in religion and God. At some point atheist arguments started to make sense and I realized that I had to make all sorts of rationalizations for how God works and how the world works.

The number of atheists are growing each day. America is becoming more secularized and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it. There will still be pockets of religious people but they are going to be marginalized in upcoming years. Sorry guys.

 

[interestedman]

I think that to many atheists no amount of evidence for the existence of God would make any sense to them since they base their worldview on a belief system that does not only denies the existence of God, but also prevents them from objectively interpreting the obvious evidence in front of them; that is, if the interpretation of that evidence should run against their worldview.

Obvious evidence: “The heavens shew forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands. Day to day uttereth speech, and night to night sheweth knowledge. There are no speeches nor languages, where their voices are not heard. Their sound hath gone forth into all the earth: and their words unto the ends of the world” (Psalm 19:1-4).

Perhaps trying to make the deep things of God plain and comprehensible to an atheist can be likened to a science student at the college level attempting to explain the deep things of science to a preschooler. The science student can easily comprehend everything that the preschooler is saying, but the preschooler cannot comprehend the deep knowledge of the science student, at least for the present, as the words are beyond his level of understanding.

So the sun and sky and languages are obvious evidence of God? I think that is QUITE a leap to take. Maybe it is you that needs to be more objective of your evidence because I can tell you that the existence of languages, sun, and sky are not proof of God.

 

[ccmnxc]

@interestedman
What is your response to the design argument? I’m just curious, because I seldom see it addressed.

 

[HelenRose]

I stopped believing because I couldn’t rationally see any proof of God. And before I stopped believing I LOVED God. I even majored in religious studies in college because I was so interested in religion and God. At some point atheist arguments started to make sense and I realized that I had to make all sorts of rationalizations for how God works and how the world works.

The number of atheists are growing each day. America is becoming more secularized and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it. There will still be pockets of religious people but they are going to be marginalized in upcoming years. Sorry guys.

Poor child.

 

[User124]

I stopped believing because I couldn’t rationally see any proof of God. And before I stopped believing I LOVED God. I even majored in religious studies in college because I was so interested in religion and God. At some point atheist arguments started to make sense and I realized that I had to make all sorts of rationalizations for how God works and how the world works.

The number of atheists are growing each day. America is becoming more secularized and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it. There will still be pockets of religious people but they are going to be marginalized in upcoming years. Sorry guys.

Many atheists told me how they experienced at first an emotional loss once they figured out that what they believed in for years was a lie.

I personally don’t care whether atheists are growing or the other way around. There is religious people who are secular and don’t want their religious laws to be forced on everyone.

 

[mgoforth]

I stopped believing because I couldn’t rationally see any proof of God. And before I stopped believing I LOVED God. I even majored in religious studies in college because I was so interested in religion and God. At some point atheist arguments started to make sense and I realized that I had to make all sorts of rationalizations for how God works and how the world works.

The number of atheists are growing each day. America is becoming more secularized and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it. There will still be pockets of religious people but they are going to be marginalized in upcoming years. Sorry guys.

Bring it on! Marginalize away, Jesus Christ knows all about that. If being persecuted was right for Him, then it’s right for me too.

"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. Whoever hates me hates my Father as well. If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’" John 15: 18-25

So really, if the world gives Catholics a helping hand to become more like Christ in humility, I’m all for it. The final chapter has already been written on this story.

 

[mgoforth]

My apologies if it came across as inappropriate. There were some things in your statement that I was not arguing against (ex: I’ve not made reference to neural pathways). My intent was to show the difference between what I was saying and how it seemed to come across to minimize communication gap.

Thanks for clarifying…I didn’t get that at all by reading your post.

 

[interestedman]

@interestedman
What is your response to the design argument? I’m just curious, because I seldom see it addressed.

My response is that top scientists in the field think it is complete nonsense.

 

[robwar]

I stopped believing because I couldn’t rationally see any proof of God. And before I stopped believing I LOVED God. I even majored in religious studies in college because I was so interested in religion and God. At some point atheist arguments started to make sense and I realized that I had to make all sorts of rationalizations for how God works and how the world works.

The number of atheists are growing each day. America is becoming more secularized and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it. There will still be pockets of religious people but they are going to be marginalized in upcoming years. Sorry guys.

if you have had that kind of background, I am not following why you do not believe any more and I would bet that it is more than rationality. Unanswered prayers? John Lennon said that they would become more popular than Jesus. The Beatles spilt up and now he died tragically. If you look at atheistic and secular societies, you would be looking at communist countries. More people have been killed by communism than in the name of religion. I am not sure if you really want to live in a totally secular society.

 

[dedo]

I don’t need 100% certainty. Maybe just a REALLY good argument. Unfortunately there is no really good argument for the existence of God. Most arguments are either some sort of personal feeling that one has that proves God’s existence to them, a God of the gaps argument or maybe some argument like “the world is too beautiful to not have a God.” If you think about things rationally and objectively I don’t think there is a legit argument for the existence of God.

The argument that I believe is that God proves His existence to believers who seek Him according to His purpose. This proof is specifically designed to convince the believer who receives it. It is not scientific proof that is based on evidence that is reproducible.

Although I am no theologian or Bible scholar, I think there are good theological reasons why God does not give “reproducible” evidence such as a “mountain in the sky” that everyone could see–without seeking God.

For example, the angels knew that God existed and yet a bunch of them chose to follow Satan.

I believe God wants each of us to know Him, and not just to know that He exists. I don’t know why it is harder for some people than others. It could be related to God’s purpose, or to something that the seeker is doing / not doing. For example, watching the history of the adversity faced by some of the Olympic athletes reveals how their struggles vaulted some of them who persevered (or returned after not persevering) to incredible feats.

It is said that God is love. After having experienced significant loss of loved ones in the past few years, I am coming to realize that my knowledge of love is so basic that I am just becoming aware now of how little I know. I cannot imagine not seeking to advance from where I am now by not even trying to learn what God wants to teach me.

 

[interestedman]

if you have had that kind of background, I am not following why you do not believe any more and I would bet that it is more than rationality. Unanswered prayers? John Lennon said that they would become more popular than Jesus. The Beatles spilt up and now he died tragically. If you look at atheistic and secular societies, you would be looking at communist countries. More people have been killed by communism than in the name of religion. I am not sure if you really want to live in a totally secular society.

Unanswered prayers? You think I stopped believing because of unanswered prayers? Really? If you think about the Bible and story of Jesus objectively it seems quite unbelievable. First of all we don’t really know who wrote the gospels or exactly where they came from. We don’t have exact dates on them either. We also certainly don’t have original copies. We have copies of copies of copies etc. Also, when you think about it, if Constantine didn’t become a Christian then there is a good chance that Catholicism might not exist today.

If you look at it objectively it just seems awfully flimsy.

 

[robwar]

Unanswered prayers? You think I stopped believing because of unanswered prayers? Really? If you think about the Bible and story of Jesus objectively it seems quite unbelievable. First of all we don’t really know who wrote the gospels or exactly where they came from. We don’t have exact dates on them either. We also certainly don’t have original copies. We have copies of copies of copies etc. Also, when you think about it, if Constantine didn’t become a Christian then there is a good chance that Catholicism might not exist today.

If you look at it objectively it just seems awfully flimsy.

I just had a simple question. some people who stopped believing have pointed to that reason. i don’t follow at all your other reasons about who or when the gospel stories were writen. Many who have studied the origin of scripture have come to believe in the reliability of the gospels. I am also curious that if you don’t believe in God at all, why are you on a religious forum. If I were an atheist, I probably would not be wasting my time with religious people.

 

[fred_conty]

Unanswered prayers? You think I stopped believing because of unanswered prayers? Really? If you think about the Bible and story of Jesus objectively it seems quite unbelievable. First of all we don’t really know who wrote the gospels or exactly where they came from. We don’t have exact dates on them either. We also certainly don’t have original copies. We have copies of copies of copies etc. Also, when you think about it, if Constantine didn’t become a Christian then there is a good chance that Catholicism might not exist today.

If you look at it objectively it just seems awfully flimsy.

Atheism is a belief system, no more, no less. It can’t be proven and never was proven.
It is not a fact. It is conjecture, opinion and theory only.

Catholocism is a fact. We have early fathers of the church to substantiate it. Any number of early writers refer to it and have written about it. We have places and names. We have people who agreed with it, disagreed with it, broke from it, joined it, and died for it, persecuted it, spread it, denied it, hated it, loved it, prayed for it, worked for it, taught it, annointed for it, died without it, led it, fought for it, and studied it. And thru all of this, we know about it, what it was and what it wasn’t, who was for it and who was against it. The blood that was spilt by the lions testifies to it, and the Roman emperors who fought it testify to it, and even christians themselves who gave it a bad name testify to it. Thu every century it has been testified to.
What more proof is there?

At the center of this is Jesus Christ.

Just a few thoughts.

 

[User124]

if you have had that kind of background, I am not following why you do not believe any more and I would bet that it is more than rationality. Unanswered prayers? John Lennon said that they would become more popular than Jesus. The Beatles spilt up and now he died tragically. If you look at atheistic and secular societies, you would be looking at communist countries. More people have been killed by communism than in the name of religion. I am not sure if you really want to live in a totally secular society.

It’s not true that communism killed in History more than what religious groups or authorities have done.
Communism is not related to atheism (only a disbelief in a god, not a political regime), or atheists. Communisn could be a good idea if someone really tried it in the way it should be, just like what George Bernard Shaw said about Christianity: “Christianity might be a good thing if anyone ever tried it”.

Jesus died tragically too but he’s now in the belief system of many.
John Lennon died , but his songs are now in the lives of many.
Both of them died, but what they have done influenced many. (If Jesus ever existed).
Why you’re being so physical about Lennon but not about Jesus?

 

[User124]

Atheism is a belief system, no more, no less. It can’t be proven and never was proven.
It is not a fact. It is conjecture, opinion and theory only.

Catholocism is a fact. We have early fathers of the church to substantiate it. Any number of early writers refer to it and have written about it. We have places and names. We have people who agreed with it, disagreed with it, broke from it, joined it, and died for it, persecuted it, spread it, denied it, hated it, loved it, prayed for it, worked for it, taught it, annointed for it, died without it, led it, fought for it, and studied it. And thru all of this, we know about it, what it was and what it wasn’t, who was for it and who was against it. The blood that was spilt by the lions testifies to it, and the Roman emperors who fought it testify to it, and even christians themselves who gave it a bad name testify to it. Thu every century it has been testified to.
What more proof is there?

At the center of this is Jesus Christ.

Just a few thoughts.

Right, Catholicism is a positive claim, which needs more proofs and evidences to accept it than the lack of belief ( atheism ).
The problem is: 1. There is no evidences to support any religion ever made, or super natural things, everyone claim that their religion to be the true one, none brings actual proofs.
2. There is a lot so many proofs, (scientific, logical, historical ones… Philosophy, psychology, sociology and ethics) to disprove religious stories, books, claims and gods.

 

[User124]

if you have had that kind of background, I am not following why you do not believe any more and I would bet that it is more than rationality. Unanswered prayers? John Lennon said that they would become more popular than Jesus. The Beatles spilt up and now he died tragically. If you look at atheistic and secular societies, you would be looking at communist countries. More people have been killed by communism than in the name of religion. I am not sure if you really want to live in a totally secular society.

It’s not true that communism killed in History more than what religious groups or authorities have done.
Communism is not related to atheism (only a disbelief in a god, not a political regime), or atheists. Communisn could be a good idea if someone really tried it in the way it should be, just like what George Bernard Shaw said about Christianity: “Christianity might be a good thing if anyone ever tried it”.

Jesus died tragically too but he’s now in the belief system of many.
John Lennon died , but his songs are now in the lives of many.
Both of them died, but what they have done influenced many. (If Jesus ever existed).
Why you’re being so physical about Lennon but not about Jesus?

 

[kbf1970060]

Belief requires a conclusion: God exists. Denying the conclusion does not prove the conclusion to be false, but what evidence is there to say, the conclusion is false? Lack of good reason to reach the conclusion does nothing to prove the conclusion is false. If God is good, and good exists, then God exists. Good exists and therefore, God exists, but good is not God.

 

[kbf1970060]

It’s all good, but it isn’t all God.