Demonic possession and sins?

[Little_One0307]

I am asking you to think rationally. Without the magesterium of the church. If someone tell you he loves you but that if you do not acknowldedge his love he will eternally punish you, is that justice?

I dont think its that hard to figure out where I am coming from. According to reasoning a finite number of sins should be punished with a finite punishment, not an infinite one. The fact that eternal damnation seems reasonable to you seems a bit more troubling to me.

I respect your beliefs, but really question the idea that you do not see my point. My idea of love is like that of a parent who loves their child unconditionally. Who may need to punish that child at times, but would never consider punishing them forever.

Hunter,

Thank you for your response. I now can see where you are coming from.

If I may, however, I would like to ask you to think rationally WITH the magisterium of the Church. If you are really an open-minded person, and I believe you are, then I think you can be open to the solemn teaching of the Magesterium.

You wrote,* “If someone tell you he loves you but that if you do not acknowldedge his love he will eternally punish you, is that justice?”*

First of all, God does love us. He is not a mere “someone”. He is the infinite, almighty God who created everything out of nothing, including you and I. God loves us so much that he created us for the following reason…

“God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Saviour. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.” CCC #1

However, since God is an infinite, supreme being, we need something from Him that will enable us to participate in a life that is DIVINE. That something is called supernatural grace. Without it, we do not have the capacity to share in His life. God offers this gift of supernatural grace to all men, as* “He desires that all men should be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.”*

Unfortunately, not all men desire to love God in return. Hence, our Lord Jesus Christ wept over many of the inhabitants of Jeruslalem. He would not have wept over them, unless He loved them…but they would not have Him. They rejected our Lord, and each of us has that same capacity to reject the One who has created us to abide in His love forever.

I repeat, each one of has the capacity to reject almighty God, to reject His holy commandments, to reject His Divine Revelation, to reject His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church…etc.

If we reject God, AS HE REVEALS HIMSELF, and that which HE HAS REVEALED, then we run the risk of suffering the CONSEQUENCES HIS INFINITE MAJESTY DECREES.
Who is going to accuse the Almighty and prevail?

The difference between a so-called rational and reasonable religion, and the Catholic religion is that the first is a human religion coming from human origins, while the latter is a DIVINELY REVEALED religion…"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life… In other words, a man-made religion vs. a Divinely revealed religion.

Reason and Faith tells me that Almighty God is the arbitrator of Justice and not a mere man, ie., mere unaided human reason. Thanks be to God.

More on this thread to come… I have got to attend to some other tasks.

God bless you.

---

 

[hunter123]

Thanks for your detailed reply. I have a hypothetical situation for you to answer according to your faith.
A person is raised atheist and does not hear many good things about Catholicism. He views all religions as sort of man made. He bases these beliefs from his upbringing and his college education. He feels spiritual, but he does not practice any particular religion. He is run over by a bus and dies in his late 20’s. Again, This is a completely fictional circumstance. Based on your beliefs does this person deserve or end up in hell?

 

[ibetrippin07]

Thanks for your detailed reply. I have a hypothetical situation for you to answer according to your faith.
A person is raised atheist and does not hear many good things about Catholicism. He views all religions as sort of man made. He bases these beliefs from his upbringing and his college education. He feels spiritual, but he does not practice any particular religion. He is run over by a bus and dies in his late 20’s. Again, This is a completely fictional circumstance. Based on your beliefs does this person deserve or end up in hell?

indeed, this person instead of dabbling for his own pleasures and beliefs should have done some research into what truth is especially into your late 20s? unless he was under a rock for his entire life then how did he not hear of Jesus?

 

[pablope]

Actually no, but rather I find myself drawn to the christian demonology, which is permissible, but I want to be extremely careful since anything this dangerous (dealing as it does with dangerous spirits) and shrouded in mystery demands high exactitude. And this almost nervous compulsion for exactness is what drives all these threads on the occult -a subject which often leaves me in a fearful confusion.

I would recommend the book The Rite by Matt Baglio.

Following what others have posted here, do not dabble with the occult. A priest, before conducting an exorcism, prepares mentally and spiritually prior.

 

[ibetrippin07]

and just to throw my 2 cents into this topic, we are told to put on the armor of God, we are equip against all evil and protected from possessions not from the eucharist not from a sacrament or attending mass but from the blood of Jesus Christ.
while i do not endorse it, a study into the occult and satanism (not the church of satan, they are a joke literally) will lead one to understand more properly the demonic in its own nature. Even for these “magickians” they have to ask the demon to come out and risk possession by asking for demonic power and help. no one becomes possessed without
A) wanting to, alot of people seek it out and dabble into things they should not. even the occultist do not recommend dealing with and becoming possessed by demons because they know as we do its not worth it and they have no good intentions for any man.
B) as mentioned earlier feeding a sin, its why we are warned not to abound in it because disastrous things will happen.
C) contrary to popular belief you cannot sell your soul to the devil. This act can and is undone the moment a man accepts Jesus and the blood of Christ is put apon him.
D) The occult cannot curse Christians, and in all my studies thereof they are always frustrated with this. It has actually led some people to convert to Christianity due to seeing the power they thought they actually held was nothing compared to Gods. They will not hesitate to curse a non christian however because there is no reprecution. Those who curse christians are usually attacked moments later from the demon for such an absurd request. I kid you not

I have only gone to dispel a demon one time. we (me and my pops) put the blood of Christ on the home, blessed some oil and painted the door post. Then asked the demon if it had anything else to claim before Christ. It didn’t respond and it never bothered this person or their home again.

The thing people forget is the order in which things go with demons angles and God. ALL have to obey the Lord, if you request the Lord to let these demons go of you, they in turn have to or risk whatever the horrid punishment God would besiege on them (probably sending them to hell early).

 

[hunter123]

indeed, this person instead of dabbling for his own pleasures and beliefs should have done some research into what truth is especially into your late 20s? unless he was under a rock for his entire life then how did he not hear of Jesus?

My question wasnt addressed to you, or Eangelical Christians for that matter. When I want your fire and brimstone ideas I will ask for them.

 

[Little_One0307]

Thanks for your detailed reply. I have a hypothetical situation for you to answer according to your faith.
A person is raised atheist and does not hear many good things about Catholicism. He views all religions as sort of man made. He bases these beliefs from his upbringing and his college education. He feels spiritual, but he does not practice any particular religion. He is run over by a bus and dies in his late 20’s. Again, This is a completely fictional circumstance. Based on your beliefs does this person deserve or end up in hell?

Hunter,

Thank you for your reply. Whether or not the young man is going to go to heaven, hell, or purgatory is known to God alone. At the moment of separation between body and soul, according to Catholic dogma [a divinely revelaed truth solemnly defined by the Church as such] we undergo what is called the particular judgement. We appear immediately before Our Lord Jesus Christ and are admitted straigthway into heaven, or detained in purgatory, or God forbid, we are condemned to Hell. (Anyone who goes to Purgatory is saved).

Regarding the young man, did he hate God with an unwavering hatred? You might find it hard to believe, but there are actually persons who hate God…

There are so many unknown questions about a person that only God can answer. Hence, the Church never says who is in Hell and who is not in Hell. It cannot…judgement is reserved to God alone.

What is certain is that this young man will undergo the particular judgement…the outcome is known to God alone.

I would like to share with you one of my favorite quotes, “today’s sinner may become tomorrow’s saint.”

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

indeed, this person instead of dabbling for his own pleasures and beliefs should have done some research into what truth is especially into your late 20s? unless he was under a rock for his entire life then how did he not hear of Jesus?

There are some people out in the world who have never heard of Jesus.

I am quoting from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.” 338

Again, judgement is reserved to God alone as to where this man is going to end up. Man looks at the outward appearances, but thanks be to God, God looks inward at the heart.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

and just to throw my 2 cents into this topic, we are told to put on the armor of God, we are equip against all evil and protected from possessions not from the eucharist not from a sacrament or attending mass but from the blood of Jesus Christ.
while i do not endorse it, a study into the occult and satanism (not the church of satan, they are a joke literally) will lead one to understand more properly the demonic in its own nature. Even for these “magickians” they have to ask the demon to come out and risk possession by asking for demonic power and help. no one becomes possessed without
A) wanting to, alot of people seek it out and dabble into things they should not. even the occultist do not recommend dealing with and becoming possessed by demons because they know as we do its not worth it and they have no good intentions for any man.
B) as mentioned earlier feeding a sin, its why we are warned not to abound in it because disastrous things will happen.
C) contrary to popular belief you cannot sell your soul to the devil. This act can and is undone the moment a man accepts Jesus and the blood of Christ is put apon him.
D) The occult cannot curse Christians, and in all my studies thereof they are always frustrated with this. It has actually led some people to convert to Christianity due to seeing the power they thought they actually held was nothing compared to Gods. They will not hesitate to curse a non christian however because there is no reprecution. Those who curse christians are usually attacked moments later from the demon for such an absurd request. I kid you not

I have only gone to dispel a demon one time. we (me and my pops) put the blood of Christ on the home, blessed some oil and painted the door post. Then asked the demon if it had anything else to claim before Christ. It didn’t respond and it never bothered this person or their home again.

The thing people forget is the order in which things go with demons angles and God. ALL have to obey the Lord, if you request the Lord to let these demons go of you, they in turn have to or risk whatever the horrid punishment God would besiege on them (probably sending them to hell early).

Hi,

Got a question. Who’s authorized to interpret the Holy Scriptures?

God bless.

 

[catholictiger]

this thread has seemed to go slightly off topic, I am glancing through all these post but what happened to the discussion on demons and the like?

 

[Little_One0307]

this thread has seemed to go slightly off topic, I am glancing through all these post but what happened to the discussion on demons and the like?

Yeah it did get off topic. I did not mean it to, it was that I wanted to answer a question. I think the original question got answered. I can’t remember.

God bless.

 

[Jon_Leveille]

I believe that Demons cannot possess a true Christian, the Lord watches over his children, and I believe that the Devil has very little power over the children of God!! Other than that, I am not quite sure, the spiritual realm is very complex, and I have not studied very deeply into that aspect, but I do know of a Video my Grandparents had us watch, by a man who started out believing that there were no such things as demons, but after the stuff he witnessed, that he put in the video he realized that there was a dark aspect to the spiritual realm.

 

[FCEGM]

He doesnt show love, 'He is Love"…symantics.

Not at all; this is Catholic theology speaking of Who God Is in Himself. This is the God that all encounter at the time of death. Can the soul without love encounter God Who Is Love without pain? That’s the question the answer to which will help you better see the Church’s teaching.

If Hitler said-"I am love. By doing my will you will feel my love. But if you dont follow my rules, you will choose eternal torment. Is he really love?

Comparing God to Hitler doesn’t bode well for this conversation. Perhaps if you were to read our late Holy Father’s presentation on Hell with some prayerful consideration you, as a Catholic, might better understand the Church’s teaching on this so that you may assent in Faith to Christ teaching through His Church.

And who said anything about “a soul so turned against him”.

I did, since that is why a soul is condemned, unable as it is to respond to God’s love because of its hatred for Him expressed through its final impenitence.

What about a happy agnostic who helps his fellow man? This person rejects Catholicism, does not live his life through religion. Did this person choose eternal torment by thinking differently? Do you believe that only a religious catholic knows love?

As I asked previously, where did I say that love is limited to the Catholic? You seem to be presuming that this is the Catholic teaching; it isn’t.

 

[hunter123]

Hunter,

Thank you for your reply. Whether or not the young man is going to go to heaven, hell, or purgatory is known to God alone. At the moment of separation between body and soul, according to Catholic dogma [a divinely revelaed truth solemnly defined by the Church as such] we undergo what is called the particular judgement. We appear immediately before Our Lord Jesus Christ and are admitted straigthway into heaven, or detained in purgatory, or God forbid, we are condemned to Hell. (Anyone who goes to Purgatory is saved).

Regarding the young man, did he hate God with an unwavering hatred? You might find it hard to believe, but there are actually persons who hate God…

There are so many unknown questions about a person that only God can answer. Hence, the Church never says who is in Hell and who is not in Hell. It cannot…judgement is reserved to God alone.

What is certain is that this young man will undergo the particular judgement…the outcome is known to God alone.

I would like to share with you one of my favorite quotes, “today’s sinner may become tomorrow’s saint.”

God bless.

Very well said. I can accept this explanation and find it makes much more sense than the typical Evangellical Christian approach. The chuches teaching in this regard is not much different than my own beliefs.

I can agree with you that those with hate in their heart for God cannot expect salvation. But those with hate for God, must be miserable people and are suffering in this world as it is. I still question the point of further suffering for these unfortunate souls. Thanks for your time and your respect.

 

[pablope]

I believe that Demons cannot possess a true Christian, the Lord watches over his children, and I believe that the Devil has very little power over the children of God!! Other than that, I am not quite sure, the spiritual realm is very complex, and I have not studied very deeply into that aspect, but I do know of a Video my Grandparents had us watch, by a man who started out believing that there were no such things as demons, but after the stuff he witnessed, that he put in the video he realized that there was a dark aspect to the spiritual realm.

You may want to read The Rite by Matt Baglio.

There are different kinds and levels of possession/obsession.

One kind of possession/obsession explained in the book is one permitted by God. There have been documented instances that this has occurred in the lives of saints. Notably that I am aware of are St. John Vianney, St. Gemma Galgani and Padre Pio.

But the possession is to make them holier and closer to God, and to deepen their faith. If you are not aware, St. Gemma and Padre Pio are Stigmatics, that is they received the wounds of Christ on their bodies.

 

[TheSeraphim]

I believe that in today’s society we get so inclined for the fear of hell that we forget the whole aspect of being Catholic. It seems like we do things like robots by doing things as rules to prevent ourselves from burning in the fires of eternal damnation. God’s command is simply to know Him and to love Him. By allowing us to not only choose Him but to love Him deep down, that is what is going to be the deciding factor of how to unite with God. It’s important to know that actions and words are simply not enough to earn the eternal crown of heaven. We must, within our heart, love God as the main priority.

If we are thinking in the mentality of how not to go to Hell then we are simply minimalists doing only things by the 10 commandments. When we avoid doing “bad” mortal sins then we are not using our body and soul to the full extent. In the same way that the pharisees just prayed in public to show their superiority and donated money to show their generosity deep down they just wanted recognition; not from God but from man. We must think in the mindset of how can I please God even more? We should fear getting separated from God (Holy Spirit’s 7th Gift: “Fear of the Lord”) more rather than fearing demons, evil and hell itself. This is the whole basis of our faith.

As far as how possessions work is to pretty much put it analogous to your soul and body being like a military base. You are in a battle and the soldiers from the other side want to take over your position/base. By exposing ourselves to sin we are leaving ourselves vulnerable by opening “cracks” for inviting the enemy soldiers to come in and take over the different “camps”. The enemies will come in through various methods and tactics which is their speciality. Our soul becomes captive to these enemy soldiers as one by one our camps within this fortress gets taken over until finally it takes over the whole will. Possession is essentially an act of complete dominance by the enemy to the person.

I also have read stories of saints getting possessed as a test of God’s soul. The important focus here is that God is loving and will not test a soul beyond its strength. In fact God blesses us so much in circumstances that we don’t even deserve. It’s important to bear witness to God and to allow ourselves to always be glorifying and illuminating that light which is God to our friends, family and society.

 

[fakename]

So basically, we should be afraid of mortal sins from the POV of possession but much more afraid of mortal sins from the POV of loosing grace?

 

[TheSeraphim]

So basically, we should be afraid of mortal sins from the POV of possession but much more afraid of mortal sins from the POV of loosing grace?

Not in the context you brought up.

By fear, I don’t mean the anxiety of being rattled up to the point of not being in peace. It’s more along the lines of bringing the focus into the importance of God’s love and striving every day to increase that love.

By fear, we should fear that we should ever make the decision to be separated from the Lord. It is through God’s grace that we are forgiven. It is also through God’s grace that we are able to resist sin. May we always pray for God’s grace to be free from sin. *Sed libera nos a malo, *which means but deliver us from evil. Because we ourselves cannot fight against evil by ourselves. We put on the armor of God against the snares and temptations of the enemy. It is God’s grace that he has granted us through the Holy Spirit as protection from the enemy. In the same way at wartime did he protect us from the intruding enemies.

By fear do I mean that we should always be cautious, not anxious, to receive these graces from God. For the enemy is a very organized and an intelligent genius that will slowly but surely lead you into the damnation without you realizing it. For a Christian can be doing good works in the name of Jesus but then on judgement day Jesus will say “I never knew you.” He never knew you because you never built your relationship with Him on Earth. To know God is to love God and that is through the heart. Sin itself is a disease that blinds the person from the truth. A Christian may be good in deeds but deep down inside is propelled by the wrong motivations (i.e power, wealth, recognition) instead of love.

 

[Little_One0307]

I believe that in today’s society we get so inclined for the fear of hell that we forget the whole aspect of being Catholic. It seems like we do things like robots by doing things as rules to prevent ourselves from burning in the fires of eternal damnation. God’s command is simply to know Him and to love Him. By allowing us to not only choose Him but to love Him deep down, that is what is going to be the deciding factor of how to unite with God. It’s important to know that actions and words are simply not enough to earn the eternal crown of heaven. We must, within our heart, love God as the main priority.

If we are thinking in the mentality of how not to go to Hell then we are simply minimalists doing only things by the 10 commandments. When we avoid doing “bad” mortal sins then we are not using our body and soul to the full extent. In the same way that the pharisees just prayed in public to show their superiority and donated money to show their generosity deep down they just wanted recognition; not from God but from man. We must think in the mindset of how can I please God even more? We should fear getting separated from God (Holy Spirit’s 7th Gift: “Fear of the Lord”) more rather than fearing demons, evil and hell itself. This is the whole basis of our faith.

As far as how possessions work is to pretty much put it analogous to your soul and body being like a military base. You are in a battle and the soldiers from the other side want to take over your position/base. By exposing ourselves to sin we are leaving ourselves vulnerable by opening “cracks” for inviting the enemy soldiers to come in and take over the different “camps”. The enemies will come in through various methods and tactics which is their speciality. Our soul becomes captive to these enemy soldiers as one by one our camps within this fortress gets taken over until finally it takes over the whole will. Possession is essentially an act of complete dominance by the enemy to the person.

I also have read stories of saints getting possessed as a test of God’s soul. The important focus here is that God is loving and will not test a soul beyond its strength. In fact God blesses us so much in circumstances that we don’t even deserve. It’s important to bear witness to God and to allow ourselves to always be glorifying and illuminating that light which is God to our friends, family and society.

Hi,

I have been combing several sources, do you mind if you could provide a list of saints who were possessed? I have a friend who might derive much consolation from them. Thanks for your time.

God bless.

 

[pablope]

Hi,

I have been combing several sources, do you mind if you could provide a list of saints who were possessed? I have a friend who might derive much consolation from them. Thanks for your time.

God bless.

I think “possessed” is not the right word but ''attacked". Remember, or keep in mind that this was with God’s permission and it was for a purpose…to deepen their faith and to make the saint more holy and closer to God.

Some saints who were known to have been attacked: St. John Vianney, Padre Pio and St. Gemma Galgani (stgemmagalgani.com/2010/09/attacks-by-demons-was-st-gemma-ever.html) and I am not sure, St. Teresa of Avila. There may be more that I am no aware of.

If you want to read and learn more, get a hold of The Rite by Matt Baglio.