Demonic possession Q's

[Inego_de_Loyola]

I am guessing the spirit will enter the next living body to host it. (Which is probably why on the trained ought to preform exorcisms).

The story of Jesus driving our Legion into the pigs, who went into the water and drowned, always interested me, because wouldn’t the demons have inhabited the fish?

They need permission to possess a person or creature. This most often comes when a person practices the occult and in so doing give the devil greater power over them. There are other ways though; That permission can be given by living a life of unrepentant sin, particularly sins of the flesh. There are two extremes that must be avoided; denying the Devils power to possess and oppress, and therefore making him in your mind less a danger than he is; the other extreme is to think he has the power to do so at will without any divine oversight. For the sake of our many sins the devil has some power over us, and for the mercy of God and especially through the graces of baptism that power is severely limited.

Stanczyk:

Though you may find it laughable, most historians today are unanimous in the opinion that ancient references to demonic possession refer to mental illness. This is not a reflection of my personal opinion, merely the mainstream academic view of the subject. No debate is necessary, as this is well settled.

Well I guess if academics say so Jesus must have been wrong.

Stanczyk:

Furthermore, there is no de fide dogma requiring Catholics to believe in demonic possession. Q. E. D.

Perhaps you should reread the thread from the beginning. The church has not been silent or confused in her testimony to the existence of demons and the power they hold. Another teaching from Pope John Paul II on the subject:
JPII Catechism on the Devil:

It is possible that in certain cases the evil spirit goes so far as to exercise his influence not only on material things, but even on man’s body, so that one can speak of ‘diabolical possession’ (cf. Mk. 5:2-9). It is not always easy to discern the preternatural factor operative in these cases, and the Church does not lightly support the tendency to attribute many things to the direct action of the devil; but in principle** it cannot be denied that Satan can go to this extreme manifestation of his superiority in his will to harm and to lead to evil.**

When the Pope says “It cannot be denied” I tend to think he means it. Further the church ALWAYS considers the possibility of mental illness before authorizing exorcism.
1614 Rite of Exorcism:

1. A priest, one who is expressly and particularly authorized by the Ordinary, when he intends to perform an exorcism over persons tormented by the devil, must be properly distinguished for his piety, prudence, and integrity of life. He should fulfill this devout undertaking in all constancy and humility, being utterly immune to any striving for human aggrandizement, and relying, not on his own, but on the divine power. Moreover, he ought to be of mature years, and revered not alone for his office but for his moral qualities.
2. In order to exercise his ministry rightly, he should resort to a great deal more study of the matter (which has to be passed over here for the sake of brevity), by examining approved authors and cases from experience; on the other hand, let him carefully observe the few more important points enumerated here.

**3. Especially, he should not believe too readily that a person is possessed by an evil spirit; but he ought to ascertain the signs by which a person possessed can be distinguished from one who is suffering from some illness, especially one of a psychological nature. **Signs of possession may be the following: ability to speak with some facility in a strange tongue or to understand it when spoken by another; the faculty of divulging future and hidden events; display of powers which are beyond the subject’s age and natural condition; and various other indications which, when taken together as a whole, build up the evidence.

Emphasis mine.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

I had an exorcism once. It wasn’t intended. It was Advent 2010 and I got the evening weekday mass time wrong. There were a couple small details that I don’t need to bore you all with, but the point is, it happened very fast, was slightly confusing, and all I knew what to say was, “thank you” after.

If it was spontaneous then it was deliverance prayer rather than a solemn exorcism. Either way i’m glad that was taken care of.

 

[stanczyk]

Inego, I am certain that your extreme rudeness is unintentional, however, I must say once again how incredibly rude you are coming across as.

You are also quite wrong. There is simply no de fide dogma regarding demonic possession. A Catholic is not required to believe in demonic possession. If you examine the quote from the Blessed Pope John Paul II, you will see that you neglected to highlight the entirety of the ending clause of the last sentence. Specifically, and crucially because it goes against the point you are trying to make, you neglect to highlight the words “in principle.”

It is possible that in certain cases the evil spirit goes so far as to exercise his influence not only on material things, but even on man’s body, so that one can speak of ‘diabolical possession’ (cf. Mk. 5:2-9). It is not always easy to discern the preternatural factor operative in these cases, and the Church does not lightly support the tendency to attribute many things to the direct action of the devil; but in principle it cannot be denied that Satan can go to this extreme manifestation of his superiority in his will to harm and to lead to evil.

It is clear that the Blessed Pope John Paul II meant what he said, that it cannot be denied that the devil can, in principle go to such an extreme manifestation. Logically, this is not to say that is has ever happened in fact, rather that it is possible that it may happen in principle.

Of course, the Devil is a de fide dogma. This is not in dispute. Moreover, the nature of the demons cast out by Christ is not in dispute. There is no de fide dogma related the nature of these demons, either, however if we are to assume for the sake of argument that the demonic possession of the Gospel refers to literal demons rather than an ancient understanding of mental illness (as is the consensus of historians), it still does not imply that a Catholic is required to believe such possession may still occur in the present day.

Moreover, the historical fact that the ancients referred to mental illness as “demonic possession” does not make Christ “wrong” when He “casts out demons.” It merely means that He used the parlance of his time. The term demonic possession may have been a misnomer, but that is what was thought to be occurring at the time. It does not make it any less miraculous that Christ cast mental illness out of those suffering from it, rather than literal demons. The history in this regard is very clear.

Once again, Q.E.D.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Inego, I am certain that your extreme rudeness is unintentional, however, I must say once again how incredibly rude you are coming across as.

You are also quite wrong. There is simply no de fide dogma regarding demonic possession. A Catholic is not required to believe in demonic possession. If you examine the quote from the Blessed Pope John Paul II, you will see that you neglected to highlight the entirety of the ending clause of the last sentence. Specifically, and crucially because it goes against the point you are trying to make, you neglect to highlight the words “in principle.”

It is clear that the Blessed Pope John Paul II meant what he said, that it cannot be denied that the devil can, in principle go to such an extreme manifestation. Logically, this is not to say that is has ever happened in fact, rather that it is possible that it may happen in principle.

Of course, the Devil is a de fide dogma. This is not in dispute. Moreover, the nature of the demons cast out by Christ is not in dispute. There is no de fide dogma related the nature of these demons, either, however if we are to assume for the sake of argument that the demonic possession of the Gospel refers to literal demons rather than an ancient understanding of mental illness (as is the consensus of historians), it still does not imply that a Catholic is required to believe such possession may still occur in the present day.

Moreover, the historical fact that the ancients referred to mental illness as “demonic possession” does not make Christ “wrong” when He “casts out demons.” It merely means that He used the parlance of his time. The term demonic possession may have been a misnomer, but that is what was thought to be occurring at the time. It does not make it any less miraculous that Christ cast mental illness out of those suffering from it, rather than literal demons. The history in this regard is very clear.

Once again, Q.E.D.

If this is to be a protracted debate I shall start a new thread for it. I apologize if you are offended but I find the notion that we needn’t obey the church if there is no infallible declaration involved to be sickeningly unfaithful. My intent is to educate but I apologize if I have allowed myself to be uncharitable. As Saint Paul said truth without charity is as a clanging cymbal. Mea Culpa.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Ridicule and belittling *is *insult. Period.

To not believe is your own choice. What does it gain you to come on here and belittle those who do?

You do not know your bible well enough, it would seem. There is clear demarcation and delineation between those who are healed of sickness and those who are delivered from possession.
Example:
Matthew 4:23-25
Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people.
News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed, and he healed them. Large crowds from Galilee, the Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him.
Mark 1:33-34
The whole town gathered at the door, and Jesus healed many who had various diseases. He **also drove out many demons, **Matt. 10:5-8

These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. As you go, preach this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven is near.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
Mark 16:15-18 & 20
He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.” … Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

Additionally, it says of Judas : (John 13:27) As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan *entered into *him. “What you are about to do, do quickly,” Jesus told him,.
Or
(Luke 22:3) Then Satan *entered *Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.

This is not some form of pneumonia.

There is a great big world out there full of myriad inexplicables. These do not depend on your belief in order to be real. BUT, by belittling them to those who are going through such VERY REAL horrors, you (yes, you personally) are responsible for keeping some from seeking out the help they so desperately need. BTW Priests do not hesitate to work in conjunction with trained psychiatrists in these matters when necessary.

If your guardian angel is telling you to not believe in things taught in the bible and the catechism, you need to get yourself to a priest asap.

Pray for discernment.

I did not offend you. If you felt offended, it is your choice. Period.

This is insult and sarcasm and deep irreverence for the guardian angel. For someone who gets so easily insulted, it is amazing. I am not feeling insulted, I feel that you were deeply irreverent for guardian angels. Your choice.

If your guardian angel is telling you to not believe in things taught in the bible and the catechism, you need to get yourself to a priest asap.

Sincerely, your tone, does not please me. You are here not to discuss but to insult. Do not worry, I do not feel insulted by you !!!

 

[carlysrose]

They need permission to possess a person or creature. This most often comes when a person practices the occult and in so doing give the devil greater power over them. There are other ways though; That permission can be given by living a life of unrepentant sin, particularly sins of the flesh. There are two extremes that must be avoided; denying the Devils power to possess and oppress, and therefore making him in your mind less a danger than he is; the other extreme is to think he has the power to do so at will without any divine oversight. For the sake of our many sins the devil has some power over us, and for the mercy of God and especially through the graces of baptism that power is severely limited.

Well, none of this things applied to me during my possession, but I was in an extremely dark place. I figured that if one chases darkness long enough, it will stop running and give in. This is a strange sentence, I know. I really just thought it out as I type. It is an uncommon belief, and perhaps I adhere to it, that evil doesn’t actually want to be around us. After all, is that even God’s will?

 

[carlysrose]

If it was spontaneous then it was deliverance prayer rather than a solemn exorcism. Either way i’m glad that was taken care of.

No, he placed his hands on me and said “come out”.

 

[carlysrose]

Regarding allowing the spirit to enter, I do believe this, but also, did the pigs actually “give permission”?

 

[Dominique1234]

I do not believe in demoniac possessions.
Sorry…

Really? Please don’t profess to calling yourself Catholic then. Thanks.

 

[Dominique1234]

Regarding allowing the spirit to enter, I do believe this, but also, did the pigs actually “give permission”?

Pigs are animals. Jesus Christ is God. I think he would not have sent the demons into the pigs for no apparent reason. That’s just my guess though. Not dogmatic or researched, but my own common sense.

Does this answer your question?

 

[carlysrose]

Pigs are animals. Jesus Christ is God. I think he would not have sent the demons into the pigs for no apparent reason. That’s just my guess though. Not dogmatic or researched, but my own common sense.

Does this answer your question?

No. In fact I knew it was a matter of time before the “because he is God” response came.

But thanks anyway.

 

[stanczyk]

Really? Please don’t profess to calling yourself Catholic then. Thanks.

Incorrect. I has been definitively shown in this very thread, there is no de fide dogma that requires Catholics to believe in demonic possession.

Perhaps you should refrain from telling people whether or not to call themselves Catholic, until you learn a little more about the subject.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Incorrect. I has been definitively shown in this very thread, there is no de fide dogma that requires Catholics to believe in demonic possession.

Perhaps you should refrain from telling people whether or not to call themselves Catholic, until you learn a little more about the subject.

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:

The highest degree of certainty appertains to immediately revealed truths. The belief due to them is based on the authority of God revealing (fides divina), and if the Church, through its teaching, vouches for the fact that a truth is contained in Revelation, one’s certainty is then also based on the authority of the Infallible Teaching Authority (Magisterium) of the Church (fides catholica). If truths are defined by a solemn judgment of faith (definition) of the Pope or of a General Council, they are “de fide definita” (or simply De Fide).

It is the highest degree of certainty that possession is a reality, and therefore, regardless of whether it is De Fide, it is a required belief of the catholic faith. I wouldn’t go so far as to tell you to not call yourself Catholic, but rather I exhort you to repent of this folly and to believe in the gospel in its fullness.

QUOD ERAT DEMONSTRANDVM

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Regarding allowing the spirit to enter, I do believe this, but also, did the pigs actually “give permission”?

In a certain sense, the permission always comes from God. If the Devil were not restrained then he would have destroyed us long ago. Man would not need to give permission if God did not restrain the Devil, but he does and so the evil one ultimately needs Gods permission to possess anyone animal or otherwise. This permission is rarely given to possess a man unless the person has been in someway cooperating with the Devil, but it would be ludicrous to require an animal, which has no spiritual will, to assent to the possession. The reason that Christ allowed the devil to enter into the swine was to give witness to the gentiles of the Decapolis that he had power over evil.

 

[carlysrose]

I exhort you to repent of this folly and to believe in the gospel in its fullness.

Wouldn’t believing and meditating on demons “invite” them in.

I am quite sure that is what happened to me.

 

[carlysrose]

In a certain sense, the permission always comes from God.

Again, “Because it is God.”

Well then what about “Because it is God, the spirits just go into mid-air and get lost.”

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Again, “Because it is God.”

Well then what about “Because it is God, the spirits just go into mid-air and get lost.”

My point was that they always require Gods permission. That it was not an exception but the rule. Because it is God they haven’t possessed everyone and turned this world into hell 2.0 though that is clearly not for lack of trying.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Wouldn’t believing and meditating on demons “invite” them in.

I am quite sure that is what happened to me.

Indulging in fascination with the Demonic can be cause for oppression which can lead to obsession. Believing in their existence and activities isn’t quite the same thing.

 

[carlysrose]

hell 2.0

 

[stanczyk]

What I believe is not and has never been the issue, nor have I ever stated one way or another what I personally believe about demonic possession.

The issue is whether a Catholic must believe in demonic possession. The answer is no. A Catholic must believe all de fide dogma. There is no de fide dogma related to demonic possession, and it is telling that Inego Loyola has not addressed this point directly.

Moreover, the public revelation closed with the death of the last Apostle. No private revelation must be believed. Certain private revelations related to, for example, the Blessed Virgin are permitted, as a “worthy belief” but no private revelation can ever be required to believe, nor necessary. One wonders how belief in demonic possession can be considered a “worthy” belief.

Nonetheless, the utter wrongness of asserting that a Catholic must believe in present-day demonic possession cannot be overstated. This has nothing to do with believing the revealed truth of Christ, which is contained entirely within the public revelation, which does not include any reference to any demonic possession in the present day.

The hubris of insisting that all Catholics conform to this gratuitous belief is incredible. I will pray that Inego Loyola is guided by the Lord to cease preaching his false teachings about what Catholics must believe, lest he lead any others astray. And I hope he comes to repent of his pride.