Demonic possession Q's

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Do you deny that Jesus Christ himself exorcized demoniacs? Are you refuting the Truths of our Holy Bible? If so then I take back my apology. I was stating fact to begin with. To deny demonic possession is denying that Christ himself exorcized demons out of people and told them to go into pigs. You are indirectly calling Jesus Christ a liar and that offends my Faith as a Catholic.

Then I retire my thanking you for apologizing.
Would you mind to decide whether you apologize or not? Thanks…
Many things that were considered the Devil were perhaps enfermities that would be considered psychological today.
As for the pigs, well, I do not know…Would it be true? Would the Evangelists wanted to teach us something?
Again, when I want to call Jesus a liar, I do not need you, OK? I know how to speak. Do not use Jesus Christ as a simple arm in your arsenal to throw Him in a very indecent way against me, OK? Jesus Christ is not as argument you may use as you please…
I offend Your Faith or the Faith of the Church?
You seem to be a bit nervous, and you are overstepping borders and using indecent language.
If I am to be excommunicated, it is not by you !!!
Would you mind to calm down, please?

 

[Dominique1234]

Then I retire my thanking you for apologizing.
Would you mind to decide whether you apologize or not? Thanks…
Many things that were considered the Devil were perhaps enfermities that would be considered psychological today.
As for the pigs, well, I do not know…Would it be true? Would the Evangelists wanted to teach us something?
Again, when I want to call Jesus a liar, I do not need you, OK? I know how to speak. Do not use Jesus Christ as a simple arm in your arsenal to throw Him in a very indecent way against me, OK? Jesus Christ is not as argument you may use as you please…
I offend Your Faith or the Faith of the Church?
You seem to be a bit nervous, and you are overstepping borders and using indecent language.
If I am to be excommunicated, it is not by you !!!
Would you mind to calm down, please?

I’m sorry if you took any offense to my last post. It wasn’t meant to do so. I was only saying that if you are refuting what the Holy Bible is saying about demonic possession, then you are in error with thinking there is no such thing as demonic possession. Christ himself said “Go” as the demons pleaded to be sent into the pigs.

Exerpt from the Bible.

"28 When He arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met Him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.”

32 He said to them, “Go!” So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33 Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34 Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw Him, they pleaded with Him to leave their region." (Matthew 8:28-34.)

How did these two men know who Jesus was? Even to the point of calling him “Son of God”? There is no evidence that Jesus and his apostles had even been in that region before Biblically speaking.

These were not infirmities. The disciples, and obviously Jesus Himself knew what the difference was between infirm and demonically possessed people. Why would they mention both in the same sentence or paragraph? Why differentiate if they are the same? There are MANY different Bible passages that state demonic possession and infirm people in the same sentence.

As for me excommunicating you… no one can do that but the individual who does not follow what the Catholic Church teaches,through sin, that is if they are Catholic to begin with. Here is what the Catholic Church has to say about excommunication.

"1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication."Excerpt from the CCC

As for the pigs running off a cliff into water? It cannot get any clearer. There is no hidden message behind it. It is what it is. The demons went into the pigs and ran off a cliff. This entire truth of this passage in the Bible is to show people that there is a difference between people with mental health issues and being possessed by a demon or devil. Clear as day.

I am also confused as to why you are asking me to calm down? I understand sometimes it’s hard to read emotion in writing, but I have no ill intent in this. It’s only to help you see Truth. If that’s a crime, I will stop right now. You have every right to think what you want to and I have every right to help you on the right path with Biblical proofs. That simple. I mean no disrespect, nor have I in past messages. When I said to not call yourself Catholic, it’s because it’s almost too evident and ridiculous to NOT believe in exorcisms and demonic possession. Why would the Catholic Church appoint priests to do these exorcisms if there is no such thing? I don’t understand your logic.

As for using indecent language, I don’t see where I did so… Have I taken the Lord’s name in vain? Cursed or swore in any manner? Have I hurt your pride in any way? If so I apologize for overstepping my boundaries. I don’t think I have. But I am sorry for offending you. You I’m sure are a good person who means well and is out to help people discover the Truth. Next time you post something like, “I don’t believe in demonic possession.”, think before you write something like that down when the person who is seeking help and Truth (as in what the Bible teaches). Instead prove your point. Thank you for reinforcing my Faith in the Catholic Church. Thank you for pushing me to research the Truth, for your sake.

As for telling you that you are indirectly calling Christ a liar, that is what you are doing by not believing in demonic possession. I will reiterate once more. Jesus Christ himself expelled (exorcised) demons out of human being who were possessed, not mentally or psychologically sick. It’s evident in scripture and today. How can one explain chairs levitating, objects being thrown from one end of a room to the other? People contorting their bodies in inhuman-like fashion? Can you explain these proofs?

Anyhow, I hope you understand what I am saying. I mean no offense. Only understanding of factual evidence.

 

[Dominique1234]

You are making some absurd and baseless accusations against Pfaff. It is shocking how you can be so rude as to baselessly impugn a fellow Christian.
**
It is well established historical fact that the ancients used to consider the mentally ill to be demon possessed.This was the term for mental illness used at the time. ** One does not need to believe that the demoniacs healed by Christ were necessarily possessed by demons in a literal sense. If Christ was merely using the term "demonic possession to mean mentally ill as we understand it today, it is hardly a lie.

Show me Catholic text that state this. And why would Christ tell his apostles to go cure the sick and expel demons out of people all in the same sentence? The obvious reason is that there IS a difference between mental illness and demonic possession. It states, in the Bible that Christ allowed demons to go into the pigs and the pigs unexplainably ran off a cliff into the water… please explain what that means.

Excerpt from the Bible

28 When He arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met Him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.”

32 He said to them, “Go!” So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33 Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34 Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw Him, they pleaded with Him to leave their region. (Matthew 8: 28-34)

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Show me Catholic text that state this. And why would Christ tell his apostles to go cure the sick and expel demons out of people all in the same sentence? The obvious reason is that there IS a difference between mental illness and demonic possession. It states, in the Bible that Christ allowed demons to go into the pigs and the pigs unexplainably ran off a cliff into the water… please explain what that means.

Excerpt from the Bible

28 When He arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met Him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.”

32 He said to them, “Go!” So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33 Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34 Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw Him, they pleaded with Him to leave their region. (Matthew 8: 28-34)

The two men had agoraphobia which was cast into the pigs, so the pigs had to run into the water to escape the wide open space of the field. It’s perfectly logical, so I don’t see your point, and anyway historians agree with me.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Rome regards demoniac possession as a real thing - that’s why they train exorcists.

That is security of belt and braces.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I’m sorry if you took any offense to my last post. It wasn’t meant to do so. I was only saying that if you are refuting what the Holy Bible is saying about demonic possession, then you are in error with thinking there is no such thing as demonic possession. Christ himself said “Go” as the demons pleaded to be sent into the pigs.

Exerpt from the Bible.

Anyhow, I hope you understand what I am saying. I mean no offense. Only understanding of factual evidence.

Would you mind to read my post #78? That is where I think the Devil is.
We are entertaining with devil possessions that no one has ever seen (I did not see one, and I am not young: if there were so many, I should have seen at least ONE!). On the other hand, if they are so rare, why bother ?
So, as we discuss things that few ever saw, the Devil is doing his job on the fields I mention on post #78. These are the real dangers.
You said that I was calling Jesus a liar and took offense with that. You go on insisting and I am not going to explain more.
As I told you, when I want to call Jesus a liar, I can say by my own words. I know the word Jesus, the word “is” and the word liar. I do not need you at all to invent what I did not say. anyhow, lest you do not know, the Gospels were not written by Jesus Christ. Do you know that? Jesus Christ did not ** tell any story ** about pigs. You seem to be quite ignorant, yet you presume to know everything. Or is your English that is faltering? How can I say that Jesus is a liar? The pigs did not jump? Or he did not say? If He did not say He could not be a liar. If He said but they did not jump, I did not say that they did not jump! If it was not the devil, how they jump? If it was the devil and they jump, how did I say that Jesus was lying? That it was not the devil? then, how did they jump? That was the devil? And if I say not, I was saying that Jesus was lying because they devil jumped?

As for infirmities that Jesus knew so well, are you talking about 1st century enfermities like leper or 21st century diseases? To cure leper today IS NOT a miracle. In the time of Jesus it was.

You are quoting so much Bible !!!
Look around and see in the modern world were the Devil is working. Let’s forget the pigs jumping into the ocean and remember in today’s world how marriage is treated and divorce and adultery stimulated, how free sex is sold, how God is forgotten, how the miserable are oppressed. That is where the Devil is Today.
Sincerely, I have no more patience for your pigs…

 

[po18guy]

That is security of belt and braces.

Or it could just be that you are wrong. You are speaking here of your personal opinion which contradicts clear Church teaching. You both can’t be correct.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Would you mind to read my post #78? That is where I think the Devil is.
We are entertaining with devil possessions that no one has ever seen (I did not see one, and I am not young: if there were so many, I should have seen at least ONE!). On the other hand, if they are so rare, why bother ?
So, as we discuss things that few ever saw, the Devil is doing his job on the fields I mention on post #78. These are the real dangers.
You said that I was calling Jesus a liar and took offense with that. You go on insisting and I am not going to explain more.
As I told you, when I want to call Jesus a liar, I can say by my own words. I know the word Jesus, the word “is” and the word liar. I do not need you at all to invent what I did not say. anyhow, lest you do not know, the Gospels were not written by Jesus Christ. Do you know that? Jesus Christ did not ** tell any story ** about pigs. You seem to be quite ignorant, yet you presume to know everything. Or is your English that is faltering? How can I say that Jesus is a liar? The pigs did not jump? Or he did not say? If He did not say He could not be a liar. If He said but they did not jump, I did not say that they did not jump! If it was not the devil, how they jump? If it was the devil and they jump, how did I say that Jesus was lying? That it was not the devil? then, how did they jump? That was the devil? And if I say not, I was saying that Jesus was lying because they devil jumped?

As for infirmities that Jesus knew so well, are you talking about 1st century enfermities like leper or 21st century diseases? To cure leper today IS NOT a miracle. In the time of Jesus it was.

You are quoting so much Bible !!!
Look around and see in the modern world were the Devil is working. Let’s forget the pigs jumping into the ocean and remember in today’s world how marriage is treated and divorce and adultery stimulated, how free sex is sold, how God is forgotten, how the miserable are oppressed. That is where the Devil is Today.
Sincerely, I have no more patience for your pigs…

I’m sorry you have been so offended, but I think you give the devil both too much and too little credit. He is not a master of self discipline nor is he privy to the truths of God. His nature suffered greatly in his fall just as our nature did in our fall. He is intelligent to be sure but he is also boastful, arrogant, proud, imprudent, and intemperate. He will stay behind the scenes in public, but he desperately wants to be worshiped. He likes it when a baby is aborted because in his malice he likes to see mothers and doctors become murderers, but he would like it far more if they killed babies in sacrifice to him, because that gets to the heart of what he truly wants; he wants to be worshiped as God. The human body is the temple of the holy spirit and as such he would do anything to transgress it and make it his temple. Possession is as real as temptation, remember the devil wants desperately, not for you to think he is where he isn’t, but to think he is not where he is.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I’m sorry you have been so offended, but I think you give the devil both too much and too little credit. He is not a master of self discipline nor is he privy to the truths of God. His nature suffered greatly in his fall just as our nature did in our fall. He is intelligent to be sure but he is also boastful, arrogant, proud, imprudent, and intemperate. He will stay behind the scenes in public, but he desperately wants to be worshiped. He likes it when a baby is aborted because in his malice he likes to see mothers and doctors become murderers, but he would like it far more if they killed babies in sacrifice to him, because that gets to the heart of what he truly wants; he wants to be worshiped as God. The human body is the temple of the holy spirit and as such he would do anything to transgress it and make it his temple. Possession is as real as temptation, remember the devil wants desperately, not for you to think he is where he isn’t, but to think he is not where he is.

I am not offended, but when someone says that I called Jesus Christ a liar, boy, I would be a villain if I would not react violently.
But I am not offended.
I agree with you, but I will ask you a question: where does the Devil want to be worshiped: in this world or the next? Is it interesting for him to show himself and boast in this world or to get souls for the next world, for eternity?
My answer: I do not know. But I suspect and I am leaning that he prefers to catch sould for his hellish kingdom, to next world.
Well, if people want to believe in demoniac possession, bet it.
But I do not go for it, nor I find in the creed any article about it. What I fear is that people forget where the devil really is: sex, power, money, glory, despise for the weak, arrogance, forgetfulness of God, atheism, relativism, agnosticism, lack of love for the neighbor, revenge, killings, lack of respect for the elders, and so on.

A teacher of mine said about the Holocaust: “There is more evil in the world than the evil man does”. It is a tough sentence. The Devil is around and I fear not to see him where he is.

As for the Gospel tales, they have a meaning and Jesus gave the meaning to it, and many times the meaning Jesus Christ gave to it is much more important than the fact of pigs jumping a cliff. This jumping does not lead us to be better persons, to help the people of Somalia who are dying of hunger…

As for the body being the temple of the Holy Spirit, you do not need possessions: what is pedophilia, prostitution, adultery, gay marriage, swing parties, free love, Las Vegas-type marriages and divorces? These are the real problems with sex and the Body of Man. We must not forget these. That is why I repeat that obsession with possessions lead us to forget what the real problems are…

But again, if someone wants to believe, for me, it is OK.

But I have a right to believe on what I believe. If someone jumps into me trying to excommunicate me and saying that I call Jesus a liar, sorry, I will not shut my mouth and will answer as I deem fit.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

I am not offended, but when someone says that I called Jesus Christ a liar, boy, I would be a villain if I would not react violently.
But I am not offended.
I agree with you, but I will ask you a question: where does the Devil want to be worshiped: in this world or the next? Is it interesting for him to show himself and boast in this world or to get souls for the next world, for eternity?
My answer: I do not know. But I suspect and I am leaning that he prefers to catch sould for his hellish kingdom, to next world. [This is far from mutually exclusive. He’ll catch us however he can.]
Well, if people want to believe in demoniac possession, bet it.
But I do not go for it, nor I find in the creed any article about it. What I fear is that people forget where the devil really is: sex, power, money, glory, despise for the weak, arrogance, forgetfulness of God, atheism, relativism, agnosticism, lack of love for the neighbor, revenge, killings, lack of respect for the elders, and so on.[He is in these things as well, but that doesn’t mean he is not elsewhere too.]

A teacher of mine said about the Holocaust: “There is more evil in the world than the evil man does”. It is a tough sentence. The Devil is around and I fear not to see him where he is.

As for the Gospel tales, they have a meaning and Jesus gave the meaning to it, and many times the meaning Jesus Christ gave to it is much more important than the fact of pigs jumping a cliff. This jumping does not lead us to be better persons, to help the people of Somalia who are dying of hunger… [No but it may help those in the spiritual difficulties of demonic opression and possession.]

As for the body being the temple of the Holy Spirit, you do not need possessions: what is pedophilia, prostitution, adultery, gay marriage, swing parties, free love, Las Vegas-type marriages and divorces? These are the real problems with sex and the Body of Man. We must not forget these. That is why I repeat that obsession with possessions lead us to forget what the real problems are…[Obsession with it is surely problematic, but I would say that it is dangerous to ignore the Evil one anywhere he is, possession included.]

But again, if someone wants to believe, for me, it is OK.

But I have a right to believe on what I believe. If someone jumps into me trying to excommunicate me and saying that I call Jesus a liar, sorry, I will not shut my mouth and will answer as I deem fit. [Just so long as you understand it is an infallible and dogmatic teaching that you are rejecting. ]

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

I am not offended, but when someone says that I called Jesus Christ a liar, boy, I would be a villain if I would not react violently.
But I am not offended.
I agree with you, but I will ask you a question: where does the Devil want to be worshiped: in this world or the next? Is it interesting for him to show himself and boast in this world or to get souls for the next world, for eternity?
My answer: I do not know. But I suspect and I am leaning that he prefers to catch sould for his hellish kingdom, to next world. [This is far from mutually exclusive. He’ll catch us however he can.]
Well, if people want to believe in demoniac possession, bet it.
But I do not go for it, nor I find in the creed any article about it. What I fear is that people forget where the devil really is: sex, power, money, glory, despise for the weak, arrogance, forgetfulness of God, atheism, relativism, agnosticism, lack of love for the neighbor, revenge, killings, lack of respect for the elders, and so on.[He is in these things as well, but that doesn’t mean he is not elsewhere too.]

A teacher of mine said about the Holocaust: “There is more evil in the world than the evil man does”. It is a tough sentence. The Devil is around and I fear not to see him where he is.

As for the Gospel tales, they have a meaning and Jesus gave the meaning to it, and many times the meaning Jesus Christ gave to it is much more important than the fact of pigs jumping a cliff. This jumping does not lead us to be better persons, to help the people of Somalia who are dying of hunger… [No but it may help those in the spiritual difficulties of demonic opression and possession.]

As for the body being the temple of the Holy Spirit, you do not need possessions: what is pedophilia, prostitution, adultery, gay marriage, swing parties, free love, Las Vegas-type marriages and divorces? These are the real problems with sex and the Body of Man.[Just like in the abortion/child sacrifice example, these desecrate the human body but he would prefer them explicitly consecrated to him.] We must not forget these. That is why I repeat that obsession with possessions lead us to forget what the real problems are…[Obsession with it is surely problematic, but I would say that it is dangerous to ignore the Evil one anywhere he is, possession included.]

But again, if someone wants to believe, for me, it is OK.

But I have a right to believe on what I believe. If someone jumps into me trying to excommunicate me and saying that I call Jesus a liar, sorry, I will not shut my mouth and will answer as I deem fit. [Just so long as you understand it is an infallible and dogmatic teaching that you are rejecting. ]

 

[Neildown]

That is security of belt and braces.

I have absolutely no idea what that means… I can speak a bit of I55t, some German, and I’m very familiar with chatroom stuff (lol, omg, ttyl, rotflmbo). But I’ve never heard that one, so… yeah…

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I have absolutely no idea what that means… I can speak a bit of I55t, some German, and I’m very familiar with chatroom stuff (lol, omg, ttyl, rotflmbo). But I’ve never heard that one, so… yeah…

That comes from another language.
And I got it wrong. I did not know how to say and went to Google Translation which gave me braces.
Oh! No! It is really “braces!”
http://rt.com/files/news/prime-time...china-unravel-oktoberfest/48d8cee408913.n.jpg
It means that your trousers are really safe, kept in place by belts and braces. Everything may fall, but the trousers.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Or it could just be that you are wrong. You are speaking here of your personal opinion which contradicts clear Church teaching. You both can’t be correct.

Where is in the Creed of Nicea the duty to believe in demoniac possession?

 

[Neildown]

Where is in the Creed of Nicea the duty to believe in demoniac possession?

I’ve never heard of it being a duty - its always appeared to me just an inherent belief. The Bible gives instances of demoniac possession and not just in figurative language. Also, if believing in demoniac possession is so hard, why believe in demons at all? If they have the power to tempt why not take over? I mean, it sounds to many people like a fairy tale, but so does Jesus’ Resurrection, and His Presence in the Eucharist.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Where is in the Creed of Nicea the duty to believe in demoniac possession?

Where is the Hypostatic Union or Transubstantiation in the Nicene Creed?

 

[stanczyk]

Where is the Hypostatic Union or Transubstantiation in the Nicene Creed?

Hypostatic Union is a de fide dogma.

When will you accept that you are wrong?

 

[stanczyk]

That comes from another language.
And I got it wrong. I did not know how to say and went to Google Translation which gave me braces.
Oh! No! It is really “braces!”
http://rt.com/files/news/prime-time...china-unravel-oktoberfest/48d8cee408913.n.jpg
It means that your trousers are really safe, kept in place by belts and braces. Everything may fall, but the trousers.

“Braces” are another word for “suspenders.”

So “wearing a belt and braces” means “wearing a belt and suspenders” i.e. redundant.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Hypostatic Union is a de fide dogma.

:banghead: Demonic possession is a Fides Catholica DOGMA.

Are you even reading my posts?

When will you accept that you are wrong?

When will you accept that the Church is right?

 

[TheHolyTrinity]

I simply tell you: I believe you. And I am impressed by the story.
Now, what is the explanation ?

It is no secret that those people who are not responsive to medical treatment are kept on strong drugs to keep them from harming others. No one sees these people and so the problem seems to be absent. But it is real. I would suspect that there are a few people are locked up in mental institutions due to diabolical influences.

In explaination to your question, it is much like the squabbles people had in the gospels.

Remember how the Rabbis could callously be more concerned about their arguments than the needy people . John 8:1-11). They saw no need for genuine compassion. In the same way it seems that our theological discussions proceed while people continue to be oppressed by the diabolical.

While our ‘important’ arguments go on, this and that person are further devastated by the influence of the diabolical in and on their lives.