Demonic possession Q's

[Inego_de_Loyola]

What I believe is not and has never been the issue, nor have I ever stated one way or another what I personally believe about demonic possession.

The issue is whether a Catholic must believe in demonic possession. The answer is no. A Catholic must believe all de fide dogma. There is no de fide dogma related to demonic possession, and it is telling that Inego Loyola has not addressed this point directly.

Moreover, the public revelation closed with the death of the last Apostle. No private revelation must be believed. Certain private revelations related to, for example, the Blessed Virgin are permitted, as a “worthy belief” but no private revelation can ever be required to believe, nor necessary. One wonders how belief in demonic possession can be considered a “worthy” belief.

Nonetheless, the utter wrongness of asserting that a Catholic must believe in present-day demonic possession cannot be overstated. This has nothing to do with believing the revealed truth of Christ, which is contained entirely within the public revelation, which does not include any reference to any demonic possession in the present day.

The hubris of insisting that all Catholics conform to this gratuitous belief is incredible. I will pray that Inego Loyola is guided by the Lord to cease preaching his false teachings about what Catholics must believe, lest he lead any others astray. And I hope he comes to repent of his pride.

A Catholic must believe in all Dogma be it De Fide, Fides Catholica, or Fides Divina. Your fundamental error is not that you don’t believe in possession but that you don’t believe in the Church. There is little question as to whether the bible contains literal possession, or that the church explicates and interprets that in its ordinary magisterium. If you need more sources on this let me know I have plenty.Please don’t lecture me on hubris till you take the log from your own eye. Church teachings are not “Gratuitous” and it is not for us to privately interpret them as we see fit. These are not private revelations but from the finished public revelation of Christ as interpreted by the holy magisterium he instituted. Why should only the absolutely most explicit variety of dogma count? So far as I’m aware the Dogma of the Real Presence in the Eucharist was not De Fide until Trent. Were people free to deny this fundamental truth of the faith for the first 1500 years of church history just because it was a Fides Catholica dogma?

 

[Dominique1234]

Incorrect. I has been definitively shown in this very thread, there is no de fide dogma that requires Catholics to believe in demonic possession.

Perhaps you should refrain from telling people whether or not to call themselves Catholic, until you learn a little more about the subject.

Jesus Christ expelled demons out of people… the demoniacs themselves recognized Jesus and were afraid of Him… if you don’t believe in demonic possession, then you are being ignorant of the truths of God. If that’s not enough to believe in demonic possession, then I’m sorry. I don’t know what else to say.

Whether it’s dogma or not, your disbelief is caused by what exactly? Why do you disbelieve in demonic possession? Can you please let me know this way people will quit calling you for what you are, and you can prove your case to be true. And lets keep the dogma out of it.

By the way, I was born and raised Catholic, and you don’t know what my education is on the “matter”. Please don’t be so quick to judge.

Just because I didn’t state any facts concerning dogma and demonic possession doesn’t mean I haven’t done the research. I don’t make a comment before looking into it. Hence me making the comment.

I meant no disrespect. I only stated that one should not call themselves Catholic when it’s blatantly obvious what the Catholic Church teaches and understands about exorcism and demonic possession. It’s out there, you can Trust in God on that one.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Jesus Christ expelled demons out of people… the demoniacs themselves recognized Jesus and were afraid of Him… if you don’t believe in demonic possession, then you are being ignorant of the truths of God. If that’s not enough to believe in demonic possession, then I’m sorry. I don’t know what else to say.

Whether it’s dogma or not, your disbelief is caused by what exactly? Why do you disbelieve in demonic possession? Can you please let me know this way people will quit calling you for what you are, and you can prove your case to be true. And lets keep the dogma out of it.

By the way, I was born and raised Catholic, and you don’t know what my education is on the “matter”. Please don’t be so quick to judge.

Just because I didn’t state any facts concerning dogma and demonic possession doesn’t mean I haven’t done the research. I don’t make a comment before looking into it. Hence me making the comment.

I meant no disrespect. I only stated that one should not call themselves Catholic when it’s blatantly obvious what the Catholic Church teaches and understands about exorcism and demonic possession. It’s out there, you can Trust in God on that one.

I believe Christ layed out strict rules on when to stop calling someone catholic. I) advise him privately; and I did that. II) Take him before two or three witnesses to advise him; we did that. III) Take him before the tribunal and if he will not listen to the church treat him as you would a tax collector or publican; This step would be impractical over an internet forum, so I think we should stop short of excommunication.

 

[Dominique1234]

I believe Christ layed out strict rules on when to stop calling someone catholic. I) advise him privately; and I did that. II) Take him before two or three witnesses to advise him; we did that. III) Take him before the tribunal and if he will not listen to the church treat him as you would a tax collector or publican; This step would be impractical over an internet forum, so I think we should stop short of excommunication.

Ha ha…! Excommunication… self inflicted!

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Really? Please don’t profess to calling yourself Catholic then. Thanks.

Even if I believe in Jesus Christ, Transsubstantion, if I pray the rosary, and do all that, If i do not believe in demoniac possessions, then I am not Catholic?

I like to pray the creed of Nicea and never found that there !!!

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

One more thing…

I think that this fear you speak of is what is causing you to not believe. You cannot, I repeat, CANNOT show the devil your fear, that is when he takes control or leads you the wrong way. Give this fear to the Lord! He uses it for Good!!

And you might as well believe it otherwise you really can’t call your self a TRUE Catholic. Being Catholic means believing in everything that is taught in the Church, which is Jesus Christ on Earth!

I did not understand your text. Sorry.

 

[TheHolyTrinity]

It was different. They interpreted that way what we know it was a mental disease.

Many years ago when a mental health hospital shut down in my town, much of the care for those who had could not be admitted into the much smaller hospital due to a bed shortage where one on one cared for at home. The female I cared for in the evening had a manic depressive disorder. She was calm when I helped her get ready for bed. I was sitting on the couch in the next room where I had a good visual of her. I felt danger and I looked up at the wall and witnessed a dense black mass come through the wall. At the same time the female I was caring for knelt in the middle of the bed and started yelling “Leave me alone”.

I was so terrified inwardly, trying very hard to not wind her up any further - I spoke soflty as I moved quietly into the other lounge. The door to the lounge started to slowly shut (not of human doing) - bearing in mind it was not a free floating door - the carpet was a shag pile and would have needed physical force to move it. (I do believe the diabolical was trying to separate us by locking me in the room) I quickly ran out of that room, and contacted the Psych team for assistance - have to say it took alot to get them out to see her. I did not tell them what I had seen. The next morning when I was writing up the report at the table - I was hit in my back between my shoulder blades. It hurt me badly and winded me as well. When I turned to defend myself - a seven year old child was glaring at me.

What hadn’t been done the previous night’s hand over was that she had two children in the house sleeping, both diagnosed with severe ADHD. I was unaware of this, annoyed that this information was carelessly left out.

In my later years I know this mother and her children were at the mercy of the diabolical.

A diagnosis does not mean that diabolical is not at play; the diabocal may be around in some mental health cases.

Mother: Manic Depressive
Son One: Severe ADHD
Son Two: Severe ADHD

One point to keep in mind is that pharmaceutical companies would not financially viable if it wasn’t for new diagnoses.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Even if I believe in Jesus Christ, Transsubstantion, if I pray the rosary, and do all that, If i do not believe in demoniac possessions, then I am not Catholic?

I like to pray the creed of Nicea and never found that there !!!

I never found transubstantiation there either. BTW As stated above I definitely don’t believe in telling people they’re not Catholic over an internet forum, but I am not shy about pointing out what the church teaches either.

 

[stanczyk]

I never found transubstantiation there either.

Transubstantiation is a de fide dogma. Demonic possession is not.

 

[Dominique1234]

Even if I believe in Jesus Christ, Transsubstantion, if I pray the rosary, and do all that, If i do not believe in demoniac possessions, then I am not Catholic?

I like to pray the creed of Nicea and never found that there !!!

I should not have said that you shouldn’t call yourself Catholic. For that I apologize. It’s not my place to judge you in that way. But what proofs do you have that there is no such thing as demonic possession? Do you believe in exorcisms?

This is an exerpt of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

"1673 When the Church asks publicly and authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ that a person or object be protected against the power of the Evil One and withdrawn from his dominion, it is called exorcism. Jesus performed exorcisms and from him the Church has received the power and office of exorcizing.178 In a simple form, exorcism is performed at the celebration of Baptism. The solemn exorcism, called “a major exorcism,” can be performed only by a priest and with the permission of the bishop. The priest must proceed with prudence, strictly observing the rules established by the Church. Exorcism is directed at the expulsion of demons or to the liberation from demonic possession through the spiritual authority which Jesus entrusted to his Church. Illness, especially psychological illness, is a very different matter; treating this is the concern of medical science. Therefore, before an exorcism is performed, it is important to ascertain that one is dealing with the presence of the Evil One, and not an illness.179 "

What is highlighted was of my doing to show what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says on demonic possession.

 

[Dominique1234]

Even if I believe in Jesus Christ, Transsubstantion, if I pray the rosary, and do all that, If i do not believe in demoniac possessions, then I am not Catholic?

I like to pray the creed of Nicea and never found that there !!!

1673 When the Church asks publicly and authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ that a person or object be protected against the power of the Evil One and withdrawn from his dominion, it is called exorcism. Jesus performed exorcisms and from him the Church has received the power and office of exorcizing.178 In a simple form, exorcism is performed at the celebration of Baptism. The solemn exorcism, called “a major exorcism,” can be performed only by a priest and with the permission of the bishop. The priest must proceed with prudence, strictly observing the rules established by the Church. Exorcism is directed at the expulsion of demons or to the liberation from demonic possession through the spiritual authority which Jesus entrusted to his Church. Illness, especially psychological illness, is a very different matter; treating this is the concern of medical science. Therefore, before an exorcism is performed, it is important to ascertain that one is dealing with the presence of the Evil One, and not an illness.179

If it’s good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me!

 

[Dominique1234]

Even if I believe in Jesus Christ, Transsubstantion, if I pray the rosary, and do all that, If i do not believe in demoniac possessions, then I am not Catholic?

I like to pray the creed of Nicea and never found that there !!!

Do you deny that Jesus Christ himself exorcized demoniacs? Are you refuting the Truths of our Holy Bible? If so then I take back my apology. I was stating fact to begin with. To deny demonic possession is denying that Christ himself exorcized demons out of people and told them to go into pigs. You are indirectly calling Jesus Christ a liar and that offends my Faith as a Catholic.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Transubstantiation is a de fide dogma. Demonic possession is not.

Did you miss post #61?

 

[stanczyk]

Do you deny that Jesus Christ himself exorcized demoniacs? Are you refuting the Truths of our Holy Bible? If so then I take back my apology. I was stating fact to begin with. To deny demonic possession is denying that Christ himself exorcized demons out of people and told them to go into pigs. You are indirectly calling Jesus Christ a liar and that offends my Faith as a Catholic.

You are making some absurd and baseless accusations against Pfaff. It is shocking how you can be so rude as to baselessly impugn a fellow Christian.

It is well established historical fact that the ancients used to consider the mentally ill to be demon possessed. This was the term for mental illness used at the time. One does not need to believe that the demoniacs healed by Christ were necessarily possessed by demons in a literal sense. If Christ was merely using the term "demonic possession to mean mentally ill as we understand it today, it is hardly a lie.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

stanczyk;9021085:

What I believe is not and has never been the issue, nor have I ever stated one way or another what I personally believe about demonic possession.

The issue is whether a Catholic must believe in demonic possession. The answer is no. A Catholic must believe all de fide dogma. There is no de fide dogma related to demonic possession, and it is telling that Inego Loyola has not addressed this point directly.

Moreover, the public revelation closed with the death of the last Apostle. No private revelation must be believed. Certain private revelations related to, for example, the Blessed Virgin are permitted, as a “worthy belief” but no private revelation can ever be required to believe, nor necessary. One wonders how belief in demonic possession can be considered a “worthy” belief.

Nonetheless, the utter wrongness of asserting that a Catholic must believe in present-day demonic possession cannot be overstated. This has nothing to do with believing the revealed truth of Christ, which is contained entirely within the public revelation, which does not include any reference to any demonic possession in the present day.

The hubris of insisting that all Catholics conform to this gratuitous belief is incredible. I will pray that Inego Loyola is guided by the Lord to cease preaching his false teachings about what Catholics must believe, lest he lead any others astray. And I hope he comes to repent of his pride.

A Catholic must believe in all Dogma be it De Fide, Fides Catholica, or Fides Divina. Your fundamental error is not that you don’t believe in possession but that you don’t believe in the Church. There is little question as to whether the bible contains literal possession, or that the church explicates and interprets that in its ordinary magisterium. If you need more sources on this let me know I have plenty.Please don’t lecture me on hubris till you take the log from your own eye. Church teachings are not “Gratuitous” and it is not for us to privately interpret them as we see fit. These are not private revelations but from the finished public revelation of Christ as interpreted by the holy magisterium he instituted. Why should only the absolutely most explicit variety of dogma count? So far as I’m aware the Dogma of the Real Presence in the Eucharist was not De Fide until Trent. Were people free to deny this fundamental truth of the faith for the first 1500 years of church history just because it was a Fides Catholica dogma?

Post 61

You are making some absurd and baseless accusations against Pfaff. It is shocking how you can be so rude as to baselessly impugn a fellow Christian.

It is well established historical fact that the ancients used to consider the mentally ill to be demon possessed. This was the term for mental illness used at the time. One does not need to believe that the demoniacs healed by Christ were necessarily possessed by demons in a literal sense. If Christ was merely using the term "demonic possession to mean mentally ill as we understand it today, it is hardly a lie.

Are we back to this? Seriously?

Stanczyk:

Though you may find it laughable, most historians today are unanimous in the opinion that ancient references to demonic possession refer to mental illness. This is not a reflection of my personal opinion, merely the mainstream academic view of the subject. No debate is necessary, as this is well settled.

Well I guess if academics say so Jesus must have been wrong.

Stanczyk:

Furthermore, there is no de fide dogma requiring Catholics to believe in demonic possession. Q. E. D.

[Non Sequitur]

Perhaps you should reread the thread from the beginning. The church has not been silent or confused in her testimony to the existence of demons and the power they hold. Another teaching from Pope John Paul II on the subject:
JPII Catechism on the Devil:

It is possible that in certain cases the evil spirit goes so far as to exercise his influence not only on material things, but even on man’s body, so that one can speak of ‘diabolical possession’ (cf. Mk. 5:2-9). It is not always easy to discern the preternatural factor operative in these cases, and the Church does not lightly support the tendency to attribute many things to the direct action of the devil; but in principle it cannot be denied that Satan can go to this extreme manifestation of his superiority in his will to harm and to lead to evil.

When the Pope says “It cannot be denied” I tend to think he means it. Further the church ALWAYS considers the possibility of mental illness before authorizing exorcism.
1614 Rite of Exorcism:

**3. Especially, he should not believe too readily that a person is possessed by an evil spirit; but he ought to ascertain the signs by which a person possessed can be distinguished from one who is suffering from some illness, especially one of a psychological nature. **

Signs of possession may be the following: ability to speak with some facility in a strange tongue or to understand it when spoken by another; the faculty of divulging future and hidden events; display of powers which are beyond the subject’s age and natural condition; and various other indications which, when taken together as a whole, build up the evidence.

Emphasis mine.

You’re going in circles.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

It is neither for you, nor for me, nor even for esteemed historians to interpret the traditions we have received from the apostles, but rather this is for the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. We cannot have God as our father without the Church as our mother, anymore than we can have Christ for our doctrine without the Church for our Teacher.

Mark 16:9-20
9 But he rising early the first day of the week, appeared first to Mary Magdalen,** out of whom he had cast seven devils.**

10 She went and told them that had been with him, who were mourning and weeping.

11 And they hearing that he was alive, and had been seen by her, did not believe.

12 And after that he appeared in another shape to two of them walking, as they were going into the country.

13 And they going told it to the rest: neither did they believe them.

14 At length he appeared to the eleven as they were at table: and he upbraided them with their incredulity and hardness of heart, because they did not believe them who had seen him after he was risen again.

15 And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

17** And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name they shall cast out devils: **they shall speak with new tongues.

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they shall drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lay their hands upon the sick, and they shall recover.

19 And the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God.

20 But they going forth preached every where: the Lord working withal, and confirming the word with signs that followed.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Many years ago when a mental health hospital shut down in my town, much of the care for those who had could not be admitted into the much smaller hospital due to a bed shortage where one on one cared for at home. The female I cared for in the evening had a manic depressive disorder. She was calm when I helped her get ready for bed. I was sitting on the couch in the next room where I had a good visual of her. I felt danger and I looked up at the wall and witnessed a dense black mass come through the wall. At the same time the female I was caring for knelt in the middle of the bed and started yelling “Leave me alone”.

I was so terrified inwardly, trying very hard to not wind her up any further - I spoke soflty as I moved quietly into the other lounge. The door to the lounge started to slowly shut (not of human doing) - bearing in mind it was not a free floating door - the carpet was a shag pile and would have needed physical force to move it. (I do believe the diabolical was trying to separate us by locking me in the room) I quickly ran out of that room, and contacted the Psych team for assistance - have to say it took alot to get them out to see her. I did not tell them what I had seen. The next morning when I was writing up the report at the table - I was hit in my back between my shoulder blades. It hurt me badly and winded me as well. When I turned to defend myself - a seven year old child was glaring at me.

What hadn’t been done the previous night’s hand over was that she had two children in the house sleeping, both diagnosed with severe ADHD. I was unaware of this, annoyed that this information was carelessly left out.

In my later years I know this mother and her children were at the mercy of the diabolical.

A diagnosis does not mean that diabolical is not at play; the diabocal may be around in some mental health cases.

Mother: Manic Depressive
Son One: Severe ADHD
Son Two: Severe ADHD

One point to keep in mind is that pharmaceutical companies would not financially viable if it wasn’t for new diagnoses.

I simply tell you: I believe you. And I am impressed by the story.
Now, what is the explanation ?

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I should not have said that you shouldn’t call yourself Catholic. For that I apologize. It’s not my place to judge you in that way. But what proofs do you have that there is no such thing as demonic possession? Do you believe in exorcisms?

This is an exerpt of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

"1673 When the Church asks publicly and authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ that a person or object be protected against the power of the Evil One and withdrawn from his dominion, it is called exorcism. Jesus performed exorcisms and from him the Church has received the power and office of exorcizing.178 In a simple form, exorcism is performed at the celebration of Baptism. The solemn exorcism, called “a major exorcism,” can be performed only by a priest and with the permission of the bishop. The priest must proceed with prudence, strictly observing the rules established by the Church. Exorcism is directed at the expulsion of demons or to the liberation from demonic possession through the spiritual authority which Jesus entrusted to his Church. Illness, especially psychological illness, is a very different matter; treating this is the concern of medical science. Therefore, before an exorcism is performed, it is important to ascertain that one is dealing with the presence of the Evil One, and not an illness.179 "

What is highlighted was of my doing to show what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says on demonic possession.

Thanks for apologizing. I was not offended.
Why?
Because it is a stupid tactic.
If the Devil wants to drive people to Hell, that way He drives no one.
Remember the 10 commandments: he will try people to violate them all. That is the way to be away from God.

Second: the Devil is too smart. He is where you do not think he is. If you think he is there, it is because it is not there, though people say the devil lets always the tail out.

Do you know what I think are the preferences of the devil?

It is power, money, sex, glory, vanity, pleasure, egotism, self-centeredness, hate, vengeance, war, disobedience to God.

The devil is sometimes a beautiful girl who drives you away from your family, the money you do not want to share, the power you use to trash your fellow men, the miserable whom we despise, and so on. You think that it is just a beautiful girl, or a piece of money but hidden there, lurks the Enemy.

OK, there could be diabolic possession but I would see it more in Hitler, Stalin, Gadhafi, Saddham Hussein, the egotistic bilionaires (the contrary of which are Melinda and Bill Gates, my view…), The pimpers (right word?)of miserables children voted to prostitution, the warlords of Somalia who drove 2 million people to starve to death…

This is my view of Diabolic Possession. Now, the facts sometimes shown, like here, impress me and I do not know how to explain but I feel it is not the devil. But I do not know what it is…

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

1673 When the Church asks publicly and authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ that a person or object be protected against the power of the Evil One and withdrawn from his dominion, it is called exorcism. Jesus performed exorcisms and from him the Church has received the power and office of exorcizing.178 In a simple form, exorcism is performed at the celebration of Baptism. The solemn exorcism, called “a major exorcism,” can be performed only by a priest and with the permission of the bishop. The priest must proceed with prudence, strictly observing the rules established by the Church. Exorcism is directed at the expulsion of demons or to the liberation from demonic possession through the spiritual authority which Jesus entrusted to his Church. Illness, especially psychological illness, is a very different matter; treating this is the concern of medical science. Therefore, before an exorcism is performed, it is important to ascertain that one is dealing with the presence of the Evil One, and not an illness.179

If it’s good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me!

Boy, I do not mind if anyone prays like that over me !!!
It is good for me too…

 

[Neildown]

I do not believe in demoniac possessions.
Sorry…

Rome regards demoniac possession as a real thing - that’s why they train exorcists.