Demonic possession Q's

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I’ve never heard of it being a duty - its always appeared to me just an inherent belief. The Bible gives instances of demoniac possession and not just in figurative language. Also, if believing in demoniac possession is so hard, why believe in demons at all? If they have the power to tempt why not take over? I mean, it sounds to many people like a fairy tale, but so does Jesus’ Resurrection, and His Presence in the Eucharist.

Please see: my post #78

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Where is the Hypostatic Union or Transubstantiation in the Nicene Creed?

You did not understand.
You mean, if I do not believe in demoniac possession I am not Catholic or am I excommunicated?

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

“Braces” are another word for “suspenders.”

So “wearing a belt and braces” means “wearing a belt and suspenders” i.e. redundant.

Sorry, would you mind to investigate for me whether there is a difference btw UK and the USA or on both sides it is the same? Thanks.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

It is no secret that those people who are not responsive to medical treatment are kept on strong drugs to keep them from harming others. No one sees these people and so the problem seems to be absent. But it is real. I would suspect that there are a few people are locked up in mental institutions due to diabolical influences.

In explaination to your question, it is much like the squabbles people had in the gospels.

Remember how the Rabbis could callously be more concerned about their arguments than the needy people . John 8:1-11). They saw no need for genuine compassion. In the same way it seems that our theological discussions proceed while people continue to be oppressed by the diabolical.

While our ‘important’ arguments go on, this and that person are further devastated by the influence of the diabolical in and on their lives.

I would suspect that there are a few people are locked up in mental institutions due to diabolical influences.

Tell me what the use for the devil to do that?
If the devil enters a person the person is not responsible for its acts, so she does not sin, so what the use of it?

While our ‘important’ arguments go on, this and that person are further devastated by the influence of the diabolical in and on their lives.

Please read what I think of the influence of the devil in the world: see former post #78

 

[JDaniel]

“Nothing is expressed more often and more explicitly by the Roman Church in her various exorcisms and blessings than the idea that evil spirits abide in material things, from which they are driven out by the Church’s triumphant power of sanctifying and consecrating the visible elements which are the basis of human life. The human body itself may be the dwelling of an evil spirit: this might be called the silent occupation of this earth by Satan, a thing full of mystery and independent in its origin of man’s consent to Satan’s evil suggestions. But there is also the more manifest presence of these dark beings. It would be temerarious to belittle what the early Fathers said of the power of the demons in the pagan temples, in the idols, in the groves and caverns where heathen rites were performed. The demons were loud in their utterances through the mouth of the idols, and many are the incidents in early Church history which prove that the pagan nations were accustomed to exhibitions of unseen powers which could never be considered as powers of light. Then we have, through all the centuries of the Christian spiritual warfare, most authentic records of manifest activities of the demons. The servants of God are persecuted by fierce powers, visibly, physically, in open daylight, as it were. The best know case in modern hagiography is the persecution which the holy Cure d’Ars suffered in his body from his spiritual adversaries.” - The Teaching of the Catholic Church, Vol I, Chap VIII The Angels, Pg 280, 1962.

Perhaps not de Fide, but certainly a part of the repository of Catholic Faith. As my Priest told me last night, “We (Catholics) are to believe that demonic possession can and has occurred.”

God bless,
jd

 

[Neildown]

Please see: my post #78

That didn’t address the fact that Jesus did indeed drive demons out of possessed people. Its obvious that it is supposed to be taken as literal by both the wording and the Church’s stance on it.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

You did not understand.
You mean, if I do not believe in demoniac possession I am not Catholic or am I excommunicated?

No, I have no right to make such a pronouncement. All I am saying is that the church teaching on this matter is clear, and I have a duty to inform Catholics who say otherwise. Once a catholic always a Catholic, and if you’re to be excommunicated I’ll leave that up to your bishop; I’m just a guy on a forum.

But back to the subject at hand, what do you say of the fact that we are required to believe more than what is in the creed or pronounced as De Fide dogma? All Dogmas are necessary beliefs required of us by assent of faith.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Tell me what the use for the devil to do that?
If the devil enters a person the person is not responsible for its acts, so she does not sin, so what the use of it?

She is tormented, and driven to despair. He delights in the former purely out out of malice, and he delights the latter because as you point out he want’s to destroy us in this world and the next.

 

[stanczyk]

Sorry, would you mind to investigate for me whether there is a difference btw UK and the USA or on both sides it is the same? Thanks.

According to wikipedia, “braces” is the British term. We say both in the USA but “suspenders” is more common.

 

[stanczyk]

All I am saying is that the church teaching on this matter is clear, and I have a duty to inform Catholics who say otherwise.

Church teaching is clear that demonic possession is not de fide dogma, and no Catholics are obliged to belief in it. Your duty is to cease misrepresenting the teaching of the Church.

 

[Dominique1234]

The two men had agoraphobia which was cast into the pigs, so the pigs had to run into the water to escape the wide open space of the field. It’s perfectly logical, so I don’t see your point, and anyway historians agree with me.

You’re being sarcastic I hope… lol.

 

[Dominique1234]

Would you mind to read my post #78? That is where I think the Devil is.
We are entertaining with devil possessions that no one has ever seen (I did not see one, and I am not young: if there were so many, I should have seen at least ONE!). On the other hand, if they are so rare, why bother ?
So, as we discuss things that few ever saw, the Devil is doing his job on the fields I mention on post #78. These are the real dangers.

I saw that quote on #78 the first time. I agree with you that these are real issues today, as is demonic possession. These are the true and present dangers of the devil. Allowing that putrid stench in our souls corrupts man to become less of what the Catholic church asks of us through Biblical proofs, hence so many religious denominations, and also disbelief in the obvious. Go visit a mental institution, and bring a rosary. Say the rosary as you walk through the halls and see what happens. You may be surprised what you see or hear.

You said that I was calling Jesus a liar and took offense with that. You go on insisting and I am not going to explain more. As I told you, when I want to call Jesus a liar, I can say by my own words. I know the word Jesus, the word “is” and the word liar. I do not need you at all to invent what I did not say. anyhow, lest you do not know, the Gospels were not written by Jesus Christ. Do you know that? Jesus Christ did not ** tell any story ** about pigs. You seem to be quite ignorant, yet you presume to know everything.

I asked you the* question *if that was what you thought. I’m sorry you feel that way, but I did not say, “You are calling Jesus a liar.” Are you saying that the Bible is not absolute truth? Are you denying that the apostle said that Jesus Himself said to the demons, “Go.” ? The apostle in question is telling us in the scripture a story of Jesus and how Jesus himself said,“Go.” to the demons of the story. Your answers to these questions should be “No. I do not.” I am asking you what you think here.

Or is your English that is faltering? How can I say that Jesus is a liar? The pigs did not jump? Or he did not say? If He did not say He could not be a liar. If He said but they did not jump, I did not say that they did not jump! If it was not the devil, how they jump? If it was the devil and they jump, how did I say that Jesus was lying? That it was not the devil? then, how did they jump? That was the devil? And if I say not, I was saying that Jesus was lying because they devil jumped?

If you read scripture, it clearly states, again, that Jesus told the demons to “Go”. The Catholic Church is built up on the Bible. It is based on what scripture says.

As for infirmities that Jesus knew so well, are you talking about 1st century enfermities like leper or 21st century diseases? To cure leper today IS NOT a miracle. In the time of Jesus it was.

I’m speaking of all kinds of** infirmities** (and no my English is not faltering), including these that you’ve mentioned. Demonic possession is another story. Let me quote you scriptural evidence where Jesus himself shows a difference in infirmities and spiritual demonic possession. Are you getting your information from non-catholic teachings? If so, please don’t come onto websites such as these where people are trying to find catholic answers about topics such as these.

(Douay-Rheims Bible)
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out devils: freely have you received, freely give. Matthew 10:8 If you actually read chapter Matthew, Chapter 10 from the beginning, Matthew is telling us what Jesus Christ Himself said.

You are quoting so much Bible !!!

Do you even read the Bible? I am quoting Bible because this is where the Catholic Church gets its teachings. Do you go to Mass on Sundays? They read 3 readings from scripture. So we read the Bible in the Catholic Church. We also believe that it comes from God, inspired by the Holy Spirit in its writings. Are you saying that you do not believe scripture to be true?

Look around and see in the modern world were the Devil is working. Let’s forget the pigs jumping into the ocean and remember in today’s world how marriage is treated and divorce and adultery stimulated, how free sex is sold, how God is forgotten, how the miserable are oppressed. That is where the Devil is Today.
Sincerely, I have no more patience for your pigs…

I think of and pray for stuff like that daily. To deny exorcisms or demonic possession is to deny the Truths of the Bible, where Catholic teaching comes from.

I understand this is what you think is important and we ALL need to focus on things like this rather than demonic possession. I completely agree with you when it comes to that. The person asking the question wanted to know about demonic possession. To tell him/her that you don’t believe is your choice, but an odd answer from your part when person asking the question is trying to find out the truths and facts about it. Why even mention this? It’s not about what you think. It’s about what the Bible, the Catholic Church, and scripture has to say about it, not someone’s opinion. This is not my opinion. This is what the Bible says, what Catholics choose to believe.

God bless you Pfaff. I mean that whole-heatedly. I will continue to pray for you.

 

[Dominique1234]

Hypostatic Union is a de fide dogma.

When will you accept that you are wrong?

Baptism is de fide dogma.

#293. Baptism effects the remission of all punishments of sin, both the eternal and the temporal. (De fide.) jloughnan.tripod.com/dogma.htm

1673 When the Church asks publicly and authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ that a person or object be protected against the power of the Evil One and withdrawn from his dominion, it is called exorcism.* Jesus performed exorcisms and from him the Church has received the power and office of exorcizing.*178 In a simple form, exorcism is performed at the celebration of Baptism. The solemn exorcism, called “a major exorcism,” can be performed only by a priest and with the permission of the bishop. The priest must proceed with prudence, strictly observing the rules established by the Church. Exorcism is directed at the expulsion of demons or to the liberation from demonic possession through the spiritual authority which Jesus entrusted to his Church. Illness, especially psychological illness, is a very different matter; treating this is the concern of medical science. Therefore, before an exorcism is performed, it is important to ascertain that one is dealing with the presence of the Evil One, and not an illness.179 CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

 

[stanczyk]

Baptism is de fide dogma.

#293. Baptism effects the remission of all punishments of sin, both the eternal and the temporal. (De fide.) jloughnan.tripod.com/dogma.htm

1673 When the Church asks publicly and authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ that a person or object be protected against the power of the Evil One and withdrawn from his dominion, it is called exorcism.* Jesus performed exorcisms and from him the Church has received the power and office of exorcizing.***178 In a simple form, exorcism is performed at the celebration of Baptism. The solemn exorcism, called “a major exorcism,” can be performed only by a priest and with the permission of the bishop. The priest must proceed with prudence, strictly observing the rules established by the Church. Exorcism is directed at the expulsion of demons or to the liberation from demonic possession through the spiritual authority which Jesus entrusted to his Church. Illness, especially psychological illness, is a very different matter; treating this is the concern of medical science. Therefore, before an exorcism is performed, it is important to ascertain that one is dealing with the presence of the Evil One, and not an illness.179 CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

To draw from this that a Catholic must believe in demonic possession is fallacious reasoning, specifically, non sequitur.

An exorcism is performed at baptism, wherein “the Church asks publicly and authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ that a person or object be protected against the power of the Evil One and withdrawn from his dominion.]”

It does not follow from this that belief that demonic possessions are somehow a de fide dogma.

Why on earth would you try to make belief in demonic possession a requirement for other Catholics when it clearly is not? Pfaff does not believe it, and he need not believe it in order to be a perfectly good Catholic.

There is no need to do mental gymnastics to try to force somebody to believe in demonic possession, or to try to claim that those who do not believe in it are not Catholic.

The Church simply does not require belief in demonic possession. It is “optional.” You must learn to cope with this fact.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Church teaching is clear that demonic possession is not de fide dogma, and no Catholics are obliged to belief in it. Your duty is to cease misrepresenting the teaching of the Church.

Now I know for fact you have not been reading my posts! Not all Dogma’s are De Fide. There are three types of Dogmas.

Please notice that there is no distinction in certainty; there is only a distinction in explication. A catholic is required to believe ALL truths handed down to us in the deposit of faith; these are the revealed truths and are called Fides Divina Dogmas. When people are ignorant of these truths or perhaps have proposed some novel teaching in its stead the church will explicate the divinely revealed truth in it’s ordinary magisterial teachings; these are called Fides Catholica Dogmas. When enough people proceed to obstinately deny the churches teaching on the matter the church will formally define it through the Pope or by council; these are called De fide Definita Dogmas. All of our faith is in the first type, most of our faith is in the second type and only a few things are in the third. All of these are equally binding on pain of sin by divine law.

***Where did you hear that you have the authority to dispense with almost the entirety of the deposit of faith? ***

 

[TheHolyTrinity]

Tell me what the use for the devil to do that?
If the devil enters a person the person is not responsible for its acts, so she does not sin, so what the use of it?

Please read what I think of the influence of the devil in the world

If a person within the Catholic Church denies demons, he also questions the work of Christ who regularly cast out demons and talked to demons.

 

[TheHolyTrinity]

The concept by some Catholics who do not believe in diabolical infestation, oppression and possession very much concerns me greatly.

This has personal meaning to me as my child was under the influence of the diabolical as a small child. I witnessed him twice take on a persona of this supposed ‘imaginary friend’ spouting off in intricate details on a particular subject that he would not have had a clue about - as the form of punishment he was talking about, no longer occurs in Western Society. It was only in reflection that I realised the true nature of my son’s plight, I do recall thinking at the time thinking “this is not my son talking” but still at that time, I had not grasped the enormity of the situation. Once I realised this a short time later, I became the target. And boy it was a fight to regain ground and free-will. Working at the time was my only sanity.

When I sought help - I was turned away by two parishes by priest who laughed at me. So I went the extra mile - I had the photo’s and audio evidence of conversations. I arranged for a dear friend (who works as a forensic photographer) analyse the photos and confirm them as significant anomalies with in them. I also had the audio reviewed to confirm that the third and on occasion up to three extra disembodied voices did not belong to my son or myself. With this evidence I contacted the bishop and was immediately forwarded to laity who worked alongside the exorcist priest.

I believe that this experience below gave me some insight …

She was calm when I helped her get ready for bed. I was sitting on the couch in the next room where I had a good visual of her. I felt danger and I looked up at the wall and witnessed a dense black mass come through the wall. At the same time the female I was caring for knelt in the middle of the bed and started yelling “Leave me alone”.

I was so terrified inwardly, trying very hard to not wind her up any further - I spoke soflty as I moved quietly into the other lounge. The door to the lounge started to slowly shut (not of human doing) - bearing in mind it was not a free floating door - the carpet was a shag pile and would have needed physical force to move it. (I do believe the diabolical was trying to separate us by locking me in the room) I quickly ran out of that room, and contacted the Psych team for assistance - have to say it took alot to get them out to see her. I did not tell them what I had seen. The next morning when I was writing up the report at the table - I was hit in my back between my shoulder blades. It hurt me badly and winded me as well. When I turned to defend myself - a seven year old child was glaring at me.

• Please note this is only one very small section of our experiences.

CHAPTER FOUR
OTHER LITURGICAL CELEBRATIONS
Article 1 - SACRAMENTALS

1673 When the Church asks publicly and authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ that a person or object be protected against the power of the Evil One and withdrawn from his dominion, it is called exorcism. Jesus performed exorcisms and from him the Church has received the power and office of exorcising.

In a simple form, exorcism is performed at the celebration of Baptism. The solemn exorcism, called “a major exorcism,” can be performed only by a priest and with the permission of the bishop. The priest must proceed with prudence, strictly observing the rules established by the Church.** Exorcism is directed at the expulsion of demons or to the liberation from demonic possession through the spiritual authority which Jesus entrusted to his Church.** Illness, especially psychological illness, is a very different matter; treating this is the concern of medical science. Therefore, before an exorcism is performed, it is important to ascertain that one is dealing with the presence of the Evil One, and not an illness.

Source: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P58.HTM

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

No, I have no right to make such a pronouncement. All I am saying is that the church teaching on this matter is clear, and I have a duty to inform Catholics who say otherwise. Once a catholic always a Catholic, and if you’re to be excommunicated I’ll leave that up to your bishop; I’m just a guy on a forum.

But back to the subject at hand, what do you say of the fact that we are required to believe more than what is in the creed or pronounced as De Fide dogma? All Dogmas are necessary beliefs required of us by assent of faith.

I say that yes, we are required to believe more.
Mys post #78 says what I think of the Devil.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

She is tormented, and driven to despair. He delights in the former purely out out of malice, and he delights the latter because as you point out he want’s to destroy us in this world and the next.

Boy, that is nothing.
Look at how Jesus was tempted by the Devil…
Those are real temptations…It is terrible and I fear that…
Possessions…well…sorry…do not make me fear…

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

According to wikipedia, “braces” is the British term. We say both in the USA but “suspenders” is more common.

Thanks. When I went for braces in Google images, I was surprised by dozens of kids with barbed wire on their teeth…