Denominations Dont Matter- Its all about Jesus

[Monica4316]

Who said anything about changes in the revelations of God through Jesus Christ other than yourself. I certainly did not. What I did say is that the RCC has made MANY changes in the last 40 plus years. Some of these were ,at least in the everyday lives of the congregants, major in nature.They went against everything they had been taught for decades.I know the reply here will be that they were changes in the rituals, the liturgy etc. and that the church has the right to make those changes.Yes, it does. But many had their faith shattered by those changes.I remember when receiving communion without fasting for 12 hours was a sin. I can remember when touching the consecrated host was a major sin. I can remember when touching the chalice and paten with one’s bare hands was a sin.I can remember when eating meat on Friday was a sin.I can also remember when parents were told their poor unbaptised infants who had died would never go to heaven.I can remember when not attending mass on Sunday was a sin. I could go on but I think you get the point.Are these fundamentally important to the faith? I am guessing the answer will be no.But for the front line congregant who worked VERY hard to adhere to all these " rules" and to have them evaporate overnight did not come easy.These changes did cause division within the church. Currently there are many issues still causing divisions.The role of women in the church.The issue of priests marrying. And the list goes on. Yes, protestants may well have division within their churches but I think this is not unique to them.God Bless. NLM

all these things you listed are not doctrines and never were… so they’re open to change… even limbo was just a theological opinion

doctrines (like dogmas that are declared infallible) never change in the Church only customs do, sometimes, if necessary. (as the Church’s place in the world changes)

but the religion itself stays the same and always has…

even the dogmas that are declared infallible are always already believed by the faithful - they are declared for the purpose of clarification, like if there’s opposition

 

[Monica4316]

Can you explain what you mean when you say that in Protestantism the religion itself changes from person to person? As a member of the denomination I belong to I am bound by the discipline set down by those who are in the leadership role. As an individual I am not at liberty to change the discipline.You make it sound as though each person in our denomination does as he or she pleases.That is not the case.God Bless. NLM

there are many Protestant denominations… if someone disagrees with one, they can just leave and join another one

 

[Monica4316]

I can remember when not attending mass on Sunday was a sin.

it still is…

 

[nlm]

it still is…

Attending on Saturday is acceptable is it not? NLM

 

[nlm]

there are many Protestant denominations… if someone disagrees with one, they can just leave and join another one

How is that different from someone who disagrees with the Catholic church and moves on? NLM

 

[nlm]

all these things you listed are not doctrines and never were… so they’re open to change… even limbo was just a theological opinion

doctrines (like dogmas that are declared infallible) never change in the Church only customs do, sometimes, if necessary. (as the Church’s place in the world changes)

but the religion itself stays the same and always has…

even the dogmas that are declared infallible are always already believed by the faithful - they are declared for the purpose of clarification, like if there’s opposition

I know they are not doctrine.I said so in my post.If Limbo was just a theological opinion, why then were frontline catholics told that was the way it was in terms of their unbaptised dead infants? Hearing your explanation angers me more and makes this teaching even more cruel. Why would priests teach this to their parishoners if that teaching was based solely on an opinion? I know the answer will be the same answer I have been receiving over and over on this forum. I have been told on several occasions that what was taught by Bishops, priests and nuns is not necesarely the truth.I ask you then, if one does not receive accurate information from these sources as they grow up and attend parochial schools, how can one learn what is the truth?NLM

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Can you explain what you mean when you say that in Protestantism the religion itself changes from person to person? As a member of the denomination I belong to I am bound by the discipline set down by those who are in the leadership role. As an individual I am not at liberty to change the discipline.You make it sound as though each person in our denomination does as he or she pleases.That is not the case.God Bless. NLM

Doctrines are statements of spiritual truth. Not differences in discipline, rite or liturgy. These can change without a change occurring in doctrines. In Protestantism, there are countless differences in doctrine, not just practice. For example, the meaning of the Eucharist, the meaning of Baptism, the nature of predestination, the nature of Christ, sexual ethics, etc. . . . These are doctrinal issues, questions of spiritual truth, and on these, difference of opinion is unacceptable because Jesus is The Truth, and division on spiritual truth is division from Christ.

nlm:

Who said anything about changes in the revelations of God through Jesus Christ other than yourself. I certainly did not. What I did say is that the RCC has made MANY changes in the last 40 plus years. Some of these were ,at least in the everyday lives of the congregants, major in nature.They went against everything they had been taught for decades.I know the reply here will be that they were changes in the rituals, the liturgy etc. and that the church has the right to make those changes.Yes, it does. But many had their faith shattered by those changes.I remember when receiving communion without fasting for 12 hours was a sin. I can remember when touching the consecrated host was a major sin. I can remember when touching the chalice and paten with one’s bare hands was a sin.I can remember when eating meat on Friday was a sin.I can also remember when parents were told their poor unbaptised infants who had died would never go to heaven.I can remember when not attending mass on Sunday was a sin. I could go on but I think you get the point.Are these fundamentally important to the faith? I am guessing the answer will be no.But for the front line congregant who worked VERY hard to adhere to all these " rules" and to have them evaporate overnight did not come easy.These changes did cause division within the church. Currently there are many issues still causing divisions.The role of women in the church.The issue of priests marrying. And the list goes on. Yes, protestants may well have division within their churches but I think this is not unique to them.God Bless. NLM

You aren’t making the crucial distinction between divisions over spiritual truth and divisions over church practice. Protestants have loads of divisions over both and generally considers doctrinal divisions acceptable. The Catholic Church is only divided, among those faithful to the religion, over questions of Church practice. Yes, these are very important to people on a personal level and people reacting to them have abandoned the faith. The fact that people reacted in such a way does not mean that reaction is legitimate or that the changes warranted it.

These differences are different in nature from many of the differences in Protestantism, for Protestantism includes differences over doctrine not just practice. True doctrine is infallible, practice is fallible.

 

[Carlan]

Who said anything about changes in the revelations of God through Jesus Christ other than yourself. I certainly did not. What I did say is that the RCC has made MANY changes in the last 40 plus years. Some of these were ,at least in the everyday lives of the congregants, major in nature.They went against everything they had been taught for decades.I know the reply here will be that they were changes in the rituals, the liturgy etc. and that the church has the right to make those changes.Yes, it does. But many had their faith shattered by those changes.I remember when receiving communion without fasting for 12 hours was a sin. I can remember when touching the consecrated host was a major sin. I can remember when touching the chalice and paten with one’s bare hands was a sin.I can remember when eating meat on Friday was a sin.I can also remember when parents were told their poor unbaptised infants who had died would never go to heaven.I can remember when not attending mass on Sunday was a sin. I could go on but I think you get the point.Are these fundamentally important to the faith? I am guessing the answer will be no.But for the front line congregant who worked VERY hard to adhere to all these " rules" and to have them evaporate overnight did not come easy.These changes did cause division within the church. Currently there are many issues still causing divisions.The role of women in the church.The issue of priests marrying. And the list goes on. Yes, protestants may well have division within their churches but I think this is not unique to them.God Bless. NLM

my friend i see you digging deep to justify giving up the whole Truth of what Jesus gave the the Church. You tell me that because of these changes you gave up the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, the very center of our Catholic Faith. Hard for me to understand that or believe it. That is sad and I am sorry. Carlan

 

[jmcrae]

Can you explain what you mean when you say that in Protestantism the religion itself changes from person to person? As a member of the denomination I belong to I am bound by the discipline set down by those who are in the leadership role.

Actually, no, you’re not. You’re perfectly free to disagree with the Elders, and to show them where they are wrong, as long as you use the Scriptures to do so. If you make a convincing argument, they will actually change their doctrine.

(And if not, you will be disfellowshipped - but only from that specific congregation. You would still be free to attend services with other congregations.)

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I know they are not doctrine.I said so in my post.If Limbo was just a theological opinion, why then were frontline catholics told that was the way it was in terms of their unbaptised dead infants? Hearing your explanation angers me more and makes this teaching even more cruel. Why would priests teach this to their parishoners if that teaching was based solely on an opinion? I know the answer will be the same answer I have been receiving over and over on this forum. I have been told on several occasions that what was taught by Bishops, priests and nuns is not necesarely the truth.I ask you then, if one does not receive accurate information from these sources as they grow up and attend parochial schools, how can one learn what is the truth?NLM

What you were taught in parochial school probably was a blend of defined infallible truth and popular theological opinion. You can look at the CCC for official Church teaching. Some of this hasn’t been infallibly defined, but a lot of it has.

Here’s a link to a large number of dogmas the Catholic Church has defined. I don’t think this is a complete list, but it is a lot of them.
jloughnan.tripod.com/dogma.htm

 

[nlm]

my friend i see you digging deep to justify giving up the whole Truth of what Jesus gave the the Church. You tell me that because of these changes you gave up the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, the very center of our Catholic Faith. Hard for me to understand that or believe it. That is sad and I am sorry. Carlan

Where did I tell you that I left the RCC because of those changes? I said many left because of those changes but I for one did not.NLM

 

[nlm]

Actually, no, you’re not. You’re perfectly free to disagree with the Elders, and to show them where they are wrong, as long as you use the Scriptures to do so. If you make a convincing argument, they will actually change their doctrine.

(And if not, you will be disfellowshipped - but only from that specific congregation. You would still be free to attend services with other congregations.)

First of all,how can you jump to the conclusion that the Discipline I live by stems from a group of Elders if you do not know which denomination I belong to.That is one problem with people they think every Protestant denomination is the same,that they function the same etc.Secondly, if I do not adhere to the Discipline of our denomination I cannot simply go to another congregation within the denomination.The Rules are the same for all the churches within our denomination worldwide.
Our Discipline is written when representatives from the various districts around the world come together ( similar to a meeting of Bishops and cardinals ). The gathering is presided over not by one individual but by 4 which are chosen by this body of representatives ( similar to a conclave choosing a Pope). When they gather, much prayer asking for the guidance of the Holy Spirit is said.The process looks to scripture for guidance and for accurate scriptural references which then become a part of the Discipline. Through this format the Discipline is created. This process is not so different then the way the RCC creates it’s documents.
Your statement that I am free to disagree is incorrect.The day I became a member of our denomination I pledged to live my life based on our Discipline which is based on scripture.As a member of the RCC are you free to disagree with the fundamental teachings of the church? God Bless NLM

 

[Carlan]

Where did I tell you that I left the RCC because of those changes? I said many left because of those changes but I for one did not.NLM

Sorry Nlm, If I misunderstood you, however , for what ever reason you turned away. I hope and trust that you will be able to resolve it in your heart and come back to the fullness of what Jesus has waiting for you, He with open arms.Carlan

 

[Hiskid1973]

Just curious here…Do you think when we stand before Christ in the I Cor. 3 judgment it will really matter what church we attended…Or will our rewards of lack of them come from being obedient to the Holy Spirit’s work in the individual believers revealing God’s will for them… It is the word hidden in our heart that keeps us from sin…And it is theat same word that the Holy Spirit uses to change us into His image…I think we try to impose our view of how Christ’s plan of redemption is to work…Do you think in heaven we will still be thinking…I’m of Peter, I’m of Paul…Lets work while it is still day focusing not on who must be in whose church, but focusing on being the fragrance of Christ to our brothers and sisters and the lost and dying around us…One thing about His kingdom is the more flesh that dies the better we smell…Can we believe Christ will complete the work He started in us no matter where we are in His kingdom ?..Peace to you…K

BTW I have a thread that I guess isn’t in the right place, any comments…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=399068

 

[nlm]

Sorry Nlm, If I misunderstood you, however , for what ever reason you turned away. I hope and trust that you will be able to resolve it in your heart and come back to the fullness of what Jesus has waiting for you, He with open arms.Carlan

No problem Carlan.It clearly was a misunderstanding.I am guilty of that …often!!! I fell that I have indeed resolved deep within my heart where God wants me to be.I know and respect the fact that is difficult for some to understand. Please don’t view my situation as a loss because I was never a full fledge member of the RCC during my 50 years as an RC. Again I know that is difficult to understand. I would love to sit and discuss my journey with people like many who participate in these forums.I think it would be of benefit for RCs to see how others live their spirituality even when they sit in RC pews.Things are not always as they seem to be.God Bless Carlan.NLM

 

[jmcrae]

First of all,how can you jump to the conclusion that the Discipline I live by stems from a group of Elders if you do not know which denomination I belong to.

If that information is important to you, then maybe you should specify it in your profile. (Are they called “Deacons” rather than “Elders”? )

That is one problem with people they think every Protestant denomination is the same,that they function the same etc.

Well, certain things are common to most Protestant denominations - for example, that local authority is exercised through a Board of Elders or else through a Board of Deacons, rather than the member of clergy (who usually is an employee of the Board). The only exceptions I know of would be the Anglican and Lutheran communions, which are run by Bishops, but which, in most cases, don’t really exercise a lot of discipline on their members, other than the most conservative of Lutherans.

Are you Lutheran?

 

[jmcrae]

Just curious here…Do you think when we stand before Christ in the I Cor. 3 judgment it will really matter what church we attended.

Doesn’t what church you attend, have a huge impact on what you believe and how you live out your faith? If you are hearing heretical sermons Sunday after Sunday, how will you not come to believe things that aren’t really true (ie: heresies), and thus, be led out of the straight and narrow path that Jesus has set out for us?

I find it astounding that you would place such little importance on the influence of the place that is telling you what and how to believe and follow the will of God.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

jmcrae:

Doesn’t what church you attend, have a huge impact on what you believe and how you live out your faith? If you are hearing heretical sermons Sunday after Sunday, how will you not come to believe things that aren’t really true (ie: heresies), and thus, be led out of the straight and narrow path that Jesus has set out for us?

I find it astounding that you would place such little importance on the influence of the place that is telling you what and how to believe and follow the will of God.

Well said!

 

[fultonfish]

The real key is John 6. Specifically verses 20 to 70. Where it says unless you eat my body and drink my blood.

Catholic teaching is that it is Jesus’ real body and real blood.

Non-Catholics teach that it is purely symbolic.

Big and important issue.

Read it over.

John 6.

 

[Hiskid1973]

I find it astounding that you would place such little importance on the influence of the place that is telling you what and how to believe and follow the will of God.

I place my importance in the Holy Spirit using the word I’m taught and read to change me into His image…I place my importance in Christ completing the work He started in me…My bishops and pastor know they will give accout for the word or lack of it they taught… We’ll each all find out what we did, right or wrong at the I Cor. 3 judgment…