Despite Catholic teachings, women religiously take the pill

[Christopher68]

It has become part of our culture to aquire more luxuries in lieu of raising more children. Anyone who has more than 2-3 kids knows this, because you get a ton of comments from people about your knowledge of the where children come from, the availability of contraception, etc.; when you are pregnant with your 4th+.

I would never make snide comments about a couple that chooses to have a large family, nor would I make comments about those who choose to have a small family or who are childless. As you mention the boorish comments of strangers to those with large families, there are also many couples struggling with infertility and the questions they get asked such as ‘when are you going to have kids’ - while seemingly harmless - can be a painful reminder of the disappointment of their situation. I have never understood the phenomena of strangers asking other strangers private and personal questions.

 

[Julianna]

I would never make snide comments about a couple that chooses to have a large family, nor would I make comments about those who choose to have a small family or who are childless. As you mention the boorish comments of strangers to those with large families, there are also many couples struggling with infertility and the questions they get asked such as ‘when are you going to have kids’ - while seemingly harmless - can be a painful reminder of the disappointment of their situation. I have never understood the phenomena of strangers asking other strangers private and personal questions.

Neither have I…what’s in the bedroom…stays in the bedroom…it’s nunya…as in…none of your business. But sadly there are some that are so paranoid of some people on this board “think”…they freak out and run to forums like this…where “ordinary” human beings “attempt” to tell them what God thinks.

 

[anode]

Have you seen some literature that claims that the use of contraceptives leads to divorce, infidelity, and fornication/adultery???

I’d like to see the statistics that claim that women on the pill, especially Catholic women, have a boyfriend on the side or a divorce lawyer on their speed dial. I agree with you that there can’t be any correlation except by coincidence.

In the pre-contraceptive days, I think that there was a lot of fornication/adultery and infidelity. In countries where divorce is difficult, there is a lot of adultery. In countries where infidelity is tolerated, there is less divorce.

Not using contraception doesn’t appear to prevent fornication. A full 41% of children in the US were born out of wedlock last year. Not all of that is contraception failure.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Of course it’s not our call - I don’t think that’s what he’s saying. But contraception is grave matter, and if the person knows this and does it anyways, then they commit a mortal sin, and if they die without repenting of it (with a firm resolution to never do it again built into that) then that person will go to hell.

Once again, how culpable someone is we cannot possibly know. There’s a huge difference between knowing something “on paper” and knowing it “in your heart.” Simply tellings someone something doesn’t mean they actually “know it.”

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

If one does not try to fraternally correct do they become culpable?

Depends. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Do you want people constantly confronting you about what they think are your sins? There’s a time, a place, and a way to accomplish everything.

Its quite interesting that people usually want more preaching done on things that they don’t do themselves…

 

[buffalo]

Depends. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Do you want people constantly confronting you about what they think are your sins? There’s a time, a place, and a way to accomplish everything.

Its quite interesting that people usually want more preaching done on things that they don’t do themselves…

Sometimes it takes others to set us straight.

I agree about the time and place…

I assume you are a priest by your username - why is their so little preaching on this subject. Why don’t priests address sin?

 

[rcjksu]

Of course it’s not our call - I don’t think that’s what he’s saying. But contraception is grave matter, and if the person knows this and does it anyways, then they commit a mortal sin, and if they die without repenting of it (with a firm resolution to never do it again built into that) then that person will go to hell.

Now we can imagine couples that don’t really know that it is grave matter, but that doesn’t seem super-likely in America IMHO. I’m a convert, and if you would have asked me as a Bible-Belt Protestant back in High School then even I could have told you that Catholicism forbids artificial contraception. That’s just one of those things that is common knowledge, even among non-Catholics.

I really hope and pray that most of the Catholics who routinely contracept seriously don’t realize the gravity of it.

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Good thread; I’ve enjoyed the posts on an issue I don’t know much about. It does seem to me however that this issue is not so clear as the black and white positions I read. I do think JPII’s “Theology of the Body” does a good job of explaining the Church’s historical and basic position and that more people should truly understand that position as I feel many are ignorant of it. Some thought questions I’d like to hear thoughts on (and my apologies if these have been addressed and I missed them).

1. If I understand NFP correctly it involves abstaining from marital relations during the 4 days or so per month that a woman can conceive. The Church claims this method to be highly effective in preventing pregnancy.

(a) If a married couple did this faithfully (no pun intended) why would it not be permissable for the couple to use a condom the other days?

(b) Why does “intent” not matter here? Christ extended moral culpability from adultery to lust; from murder to anger. It seems the Church is ignoring intent and focusing on method regarding birth control.

1. Doesn’t the moral question of (for lack of a better term) “selfishness” (limiting the number of children for the second home at the beach, the nice vacations, the luxury cars, the private colleges, etc.) have to be somehow balanced against the moral question of having too many children to physically, emotionally and spiritually nurture. Woman are typically physically able to produce in excess of 20 children during their child producing years.

 

[rlg94086]

Neither have I…what’s in the bedroom…stays in the bedroom…it’s nunya…as in…none of your business. But sadly there are some that are so paranoid of some people on this board “think”…they freak out and run to forums like this…where “ordinary” human beings “attempt” to tell them what God thinks.

You need to separate general conversation about Church teaching - which is our business - from specific discussion with a couple who is either having a large family or only has a couple of children. You can’t separate “what’s in the bedroom” from Church teaching…it is “what God thinks” as He gave us the Church to guide us.

 

[rlg94086]

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Good thread; I’ve enjoyed the posts on an issue I don’t know much about. It does seem to me however that this issue is not so clear as the black and white positions I read. I do think JPII’s “Theology of the Body” does a good job of explaining the Church’s historical and basic position and that more people should truly understand that position as I feel many are ignorant of it. Some thought questions I’d like to hear thoughts on (and my apologies if these have been addressed and I missed them).

1. If I understand NFP correctly it involves abstaining from marital relations during the 4 days or so per month that a woman can conceive. The Church claims this method to be highly effective in preventing pregnancy.

(a) If a married couple did this faithfully (no pun intended) why would it not be permissable for the couple to use a condom the other days?

Because contraception is not the same as abstention. Each marital embrace must be a total self-giving (i.e. no contraception). Abstaining is not a marital act.

quote=rcjksu Why does “intent” not matter here? Christ extended moral culpability from adultery to lust; from murder to anger. It seems the Church is ignoring intent and focusing on method regarding birth control.
[/quote]

The Church does not ignore intent. NFP is only to be used for the spacing of children for just reasons (i.e. medical, financial, etc.).

2. Doesn’t the moral question of (for lack of a better term) “selfishness” (limiting the number of children for the second home at the beach, the nice vacations, the luxury cars, the private colleges, etc.) have to be somehow balanced against the moral question of having too many children to physically, emotionally and spiritually nurture. Woman are typically physically able to produce in excess of 20 children during their child producing years.

Yes. Church teaching calls for responsible parenthood.

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:

When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts, criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.156

2369 "By safeguarding both these essential aspects, the unitive and the procreative, the conjugal act preserves in its fullness the sense of true mutual love and its orientation toward man’s exalted vocation to parenthood."157

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:159

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.160
…
2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I assume you are a priest by your username - why is their so little preaching on this subject. Why don’t priests address sin?

There’s plenty of preaching about sin.

 

[OriginalJS]

I’ve seen the positions, pro and con, repeated over and over. An impasse with Catholics has been reached - the Church is against contraception, but a great many Catholics use it. At the same time, while it argues against “the pill” the Church promotes NFP as an effective means of birth control. Thus, the Church promotes a method of birth control - the only argument is over the means used. Since the result is the same either way - prevention of conception as the result of sexual activity - the argument against artificial means seems like sophistry.

 

[buffalo]

I’ve seen the positions, pro and con, repeated over and over. An impasse with Catholics has been reached - the Church is against contraception, but a great many Catholics use it. At the same time, while it argues against “the pill” the Church promotes NFP as an effective means of birth control. Thus, the Church promotes a method of birth control - the only argument is over the means used. Since the result is the same either way - prevention of conception as the result of sexual activity - the argument against artificial means seems like sophistry.

You missed an important reason - the use of NFP must be discerned.

 

[buffalo]

There’s plenty of preaching about sin.

I do not hear it.

 

[rlg94086]

I’ve seen the positions, pro and con, repeated over and over. An impasse with Catholics has been reached - the Church is against contraception, but a great many Catholics use it. At the same time, while it argues against “the pill” the Church promotes NFP as an effective means of birth control. Thus, the Church promotes a method of birth control - the only argument is over the means used.

Controlling birth (e.g. spacing of children) for just reasons is not a sin. Using the incorrect means is a sin. So, you are correct with regards to what is at question (as long as the reasons are just).

OriginalJS:

Since the result is the same either way - prevention of conception as the result of sexual activity - the argument against artificial means seems like sophistry.

As you already clearly stated, “the result” is not in question (as long as the reason is just). Also, not having sex is not “sexual activity” (it’s sexual inactivity), therefore your conclusion is invalid. “Prevention of conception as a result of sexual activity” is a sin because it can only be accomplished via artificial means or by incompletion of the sexual act.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Any idea how many women who attend church religiously use the pill? I think that would be more important to know than simply how many women who identify as Catholic take the pill.

 

[rlg94086]

Any idea how many women who attend church religiously use the pill? I think that would be more important to know than simply how many women who identify as Catholic take the pill.

I agree. I’m not sure where those figures are. Also, as I pointed out previously, the poll question posted was whether women “have used some form of contraception.” It is past tense. Many Catholic women who practice NFP used contraception previously, before understanding what the Church teaches. It is a flawed question, if you are trying to determine how many Catholic women use contraception.

 

[Julianna]

You need to separate general conversation about Church teaching - which is our business - from specific discussion with a couple who is either having a large family or only has a couple of children. You can’t separate “what’s in the bedroom” from Church teaching…it is “what God thinks” as He gave us the Church to guide us.

He gave “us” the Church…yes. With “human beings” delegating the rules over the centuries. Yes, I do separate what is in the bedroom from the Church with human beings making the rules. I don’t wan’t to be npatrol::bluelite: in my bedroom, period.

 

[Julianna]

Any idea how many women who attend church religiously use the pill? I think that would be more important to know than simply how many women who identify as Catholic take the pill.

npatrol::bluelite: and what do you (and others) propose to do when you find out? How will this poll be conducted…??? Anonymously or will the Vatican Patriot Act be written up?

Just curious

 

[rlg94086]

He gave “us” the Church…yes. With “human beings” delegating the rules over the centuries. Yes, I do separate what is in the bedroom from the Church with human beings making the rules. I don’t wan’t to be npatrol::bluelite: in my bedroom, period.

So, you choose to try to hide from God in your bedroom (Gen 3:8)? You shouldn’t separate the Church from any part of your life. We should try to conform to God’s will in everything we do.

I realize you reject the authority of the Church because God left “human beings” in charge, but that is not what the Bible teaches us or what the Apostles taught us. Jesus gave the power of binding and loosing to the Church. If you wish to reject what He gave us, you are certainly free to do that. However, you shouldn’t mistakenly tell people that it is licit to do as a faithful Catholic.

 

[rlg94086]

npatrol::bluelite: and what do you (and others) propose to do when you find out? How will this poll be conducted…??? Anonymously or will the Vatican Patriot Act be written up?

Just curious

Wow…paranoid much? Perhaps KostyaJMJ is just interested in knowing whether contraception is as widespread as the OP reported.