Deteriorating species

[Moonstruck888]

You do not have a personal relationship with either God or His mother.

And you do? Will you be popping round to tea with Mr and Mrs Christ next Tuesday?

I thought God was supposed to be open to prayers from anyone?

Besides, how come the entropy of a system can be determined mathematically without inserting a prayer coefficient into the equations?

 

[buffalo]

And you do? Will you be popping round to tea with Mr and Mrs Christ next Tuesday?

I thought God was supposed to be open to prayers from anyone?

Besides, how come the entropy of a system can be determined mathematically without inserting a prayer coefficient into the equations?

Yes - God is a personal God. (your statement is due to ignorance of the Christian God) Tea would be cool though.

So are you admitting you have a personal relationship with Him. If not why would you pray to Him?

Do you have this value for all of creation? (not a local system)

 

[Moonstruck888]

Yes - God is a personal God. (your statement is due to ignorance of the Christian God) Tea would be cool though.

You said you have a personal relationship with God. What is God?

So are you admitting you have a personal relationship with Him. If not why would you pray to Him?

I don’t.

Do you have this value for all of creation? (not a local system)

Yes, the laws of thermodynamics are Universal. There is no evidence of any kind that entropy is affected by prayer.

 

[Della]

Yes, the laws of thermodynamics are Universal. There is no evidence of any kind that entropy is affected by prayer.

First of all, there is no “law” without a lawgiver, who you deny exists. There are no “laws” in science only observable phenomena. What you mean to say is, to your knowledge and what we know of thermodynamics… Of course, since you and I are not privy to any and all cases of entropy making a blanket claim that prayer cannot be shown to have no effect is rash. What you mean is your experiment showed no evidence. But then, prayer is talking to another person, not ordering the universe to do what you tell it to do. God isn’t obliged to answer your prayers according to your desires. Nor is he obligated to prove himself to you. Indeed, I highly doubt he’d bother since you only did your experiment (if you even did it at all) in mockery.

God is the Lord of lords. Why should he perform tricks for your benefit? He’d do it no more than Christ did a miracle for Herod when he demanded one on the spot. No one here cares if you are an atheist, but we care very much that you think he’s some kind of Santa Claus or errand boy who ought to answer to your beck and call just to prove himself to you. He already proved himself to humanity, as well you know. It’s up to you to bow before him, not he before you.

 

[buffalo]

You said you have a personal relationship with God. What is God?

I don’t.

Yes, the laws of thermodynamics are Universal. There is no evidence of any kind that entropy is affected by prayer.

You just did or you lied.

moonstruck - “It seems you’re wrong. I heated my kettle to boiling point and poured two cups of water, praying to the blessed virign over one of them and leaving the other in my spare room. I repeated the experiment several times, praying to different Gods. In all cases, when I checked the water temperature with a thermometer, the cups of water had cooled by the same amount.”

Do you know the value for the universe?

 

[Moonstruck888]

You just did or you lied.

moonstruck - “It seems you’re wrong. I heated my kettle to boiling point and poured two cups of water, praying to the blessed virign over one of them and leaving the other in my spare room. I repeated the experiment several times, praying to different Gods. In all cases, when I checked the water temperature with a thermometer, the cups of water had cooled by the same amount.”

Do you know the value for the universe?

I’m not sure you quite understand how thermodynamics works. The entropy of a closed system is simply the amount of energy in the system that is not available to do useful work. The Universe is a closed system so far as we know, and the entropy is increasing in the course of every energy conversion that occurs.

If I was to give you an absolute value of the entropy of the Universe, by the time you read my post it would be obsolete.

What I can do is give you the relationship used to calculate the entropy of a closed system:

Let E = internal energy, T = absolute temperature, S = entropy, P = pressure, and V = volume:

and

 

[Moonstruck888]

First of all, there is no “law” without a lawgiver, who you deny exists. There are no “laws” in science only observable phenomena.

The word law in scientific parlance is not a set of imperatives. A scientific law is simply a way of describing the fundamental properties of certain physical phenomena that apply Universally. No law maker is needed since there is no imperative to be followed.

God is the Lord of lords. Why should he perform tricks for your benefit? He’d do it no more than Christ did a miracle for Herod when he demanded one on the spot. No one here cares if you are an atheist, but we care very much that you think he’s some kind of Santa Claus or errand boy who ought to answer to your beck and call just to prove himself to you. He already proved himself to humanity, as well you know. It’s up to you to bow before him, not he before you.

If you were to fire a light beam from the edge of the known Universe, it would take tens of billions of years to reach the planet Earth. It would pass by in a twentieth of a second and travel on it’s merry way for tens of billions of years more.

Given the pitifully, infinitecimally tiny part we have to play in the unimaginably vast cosmic arena, divine intervention, whether for myself or the entire biosphere of the planet Earth, seems to put it mildly improbable regardless of the sincerity of the prayer.

As for bowing before anyone, my respect has to be earned. I don’t care who or what someone is, if they want my respect they’re going to have to prove themselves to me or suck it up. A good place for God to start would be by demonstrating that he actually exists. Where has he been for the last two thousand years? Did he take to his bed after he sacrificed himself to himself?

 

[buffalo]

I’m not sure you quite understand how thermodynamics works. The entropy of a closed system is simply the amount of energy in the system that is not available to do useful work. The Universe is a closed system so far as we know, and the entropy is increasing in the course of every energy conversion that occurs.

If I was to give you an absolute value of the entropy of the Universe, by the time you read my post it would be obsolete.

What I can do is give you the relationship used to calculate the entropy of a closed system:

Let E = internal energy, T = absolute temperature, S = entropy, P = pressure, and V = volume:

and

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/a/7/4/a74d3d173cb398063f2d5565ccb53130.png

The universe is a closed system so far as we know…

 

[nguirado]

Sentiment has nothing to do with Evolutionary Theory.

If you want my socio-political opinion, I don’t want to live in a Darwinian World, that’s why I’m a liberal socialist. If I wanted to live in a world where might is right, where those who can’t make it on their own die, I’d have voted for a right wing political party who promote that kind of philosophy.

Socialists never used might? It seems that you need might to enforce your vision of the world. I don’t think everybody’s going to go along. Without a transcendent moral code might doesn’t make right because right doesn’t exist.

 

[Della]

The word law in scientific parlance is not a set of imperatives. A scientific law is simply a way of describing the fundamental properties of certain physical phenomena that apply Universally. No law maker is needed since there is no imperative to be followed.

The word law certainly isn’t applied that way in discussions here. It’s always used as if it were imperative, which is contradictory. Is it any wonder we bulk at it’s use?

If you were to fire a light beam from the edge of the known Universe, it would take tens of billions of years to reach the planet Earth. It would pass by in a twentieth of a second and travel on it’s merry way for tens of billions of years more.

Given the pitifully, infinitecimally tiny part we have to play in the unimaginably vast cosmic arena, divine intervention, whether for myself or the entire biosphere of the planet Earth, seems to put it mildly improbable regardless of the sincerity of the prayer.

God is outside the the universe. He doesn’t care how big it is in relation to us. It’s our minds, souls and spirits that are “infinite” in that they are not bound by physicality. Your thinking is too flat-footed here.

As for bowing before anyone, my respect has to be earned. I don’t care who or what someone is, if they want my respect they’re going to have to prove themselves to me or suck it up. A good place for God to start would be by demonstrating that he actually exists. Where has he been for the last two thousand years? Did he take to his bed after he sacrificed himself to himself?

Christ is here in his Church. It is his body. If you want to see him, that’s where you need to look.

 

[nguirado]

Another point on “might makes right,” besides pointing out that you have no way to say what’s “right” and that the left (you’re a socialist) has coerced and needs to coerce to accomplish its goals, since people don’t usually give things up easily.

One of the innovations of the Judeo-Christian religions is that everybody, the powerful and the weak are under God’s law. In other systems, it wasn’t uncommon to have the leader (might) be some sort of god and thus not subject to any law. Might did, in fact, make right. In socialist systems, in practice, those affiliated with the party had complete control over people’s lives.

And, if you’re an atheist, why wouldn’t it? I don’t want to insult your beliefs, but I would like to point out the logical conclusions of it.

 

[Moonstruck888]

The word law certainly isn’t applied that way in discussions here. It’s always used as if it were imperative, which is contradictory. Is it any wonder we bulk at it’s use?

Not by me it isn’t. That would be because I know what it means. You should learn what it means before you misuse it or misconstrue it’s use and look silly.

God is outside the the universe. He doesn’t care how big it is in relation to us. It’s our minds, souls and spirits that are “infinite” in that they are not bound by physicality. Your thinking is too flat-footed here.

If God is outside the Universe and I’m inside it, then his insidious and malevolent dictats aren’t really my problem, are they?

Christ is here in his Church. It is his body. If you want to see him, that’s where you need to look.

If I wanted to see Christ, the rapacious religious institutions of the world are the last place I would look for him.

“If those who lead you say to you, ‘See, the kingdom is in the sky,’ then the
birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, ‘It is in the sea,’ then the fish will
precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you
come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you
who are the sons of the living father.” – Jesus Christ.

 

[Moonstruck888]

In socialist systems, in practice, those affiliated with the party had complete control over people’s lives.

That is because the systems you’re talking about were corrupt.

And, if you’re an atheist, why wouldn’t it? I don’t want to insult your beliefs, but I would like to point out the logical conclusions of it.

I’m an atheist, not an android. My ideas on how those in need should be treated are informed by my feelings, by my conscience, not by calculation.

 

[nguirado]

Feelings. This is very honest admission on your part. Usually atheists try to say that their beliefs are rooted in reason or something to claim some authority. I always say that it’s really their own feelings. Of course, people have different feelings. The feelings of the Pharoh dominated Egypt and that was right.

You’d have to get together with people who share your feelings and force them upon everybody else if you want a society based on those feelings.

Might makes right.

 

[Moonstruck888]

You’d have to get together with people who share your feelings and force them upon everybody else if you want a society based on those feelings.

Sadly, you’re correct. Quite why people need to have the right to decent housing, education, medical care, union representation and a living wage allocated to them by force is something that has always shaken my faith in human nature, not to mention human intelligence.

How the right wing media managed to brainwash people into fighting against themselves is incomprehensible, and shows how irrational, bigoted and easily led a species we are.

 

[Della]

Not by me it isn’t. That would be because I know what it means. You should learn what it means before you misuse it or misconstrue it’s use and look silly.

I do know what it means and I never misuse it. I was saying that atheists on CAF always use it as if it were carved in stone. If anyone looks silly it’s those who throw the word “law” around as if scientific theories/observations were the 10 Commandments.

If God is outside the Universe and I’m inside it, then his insidious and malevolent dictats aren’t really my problem, are they?

Only if he made the universe, which he did. The only way you could think God malevolent is to hate him for expecting you to obey his commands. If you don’t want to obey him, that’s up to you, but those of us who do know how true a friend he is and how much he loves us. The whole of the NT is about how God sent his Son out of love. You don’t want to accept that, that’s again up to you, but it’s true just the same.

If I wanted to see Christ, the rapacious religious institutions of the world are the last place I would look for him.

That’s right, the rapacious institution that founded hospitals and universities and kept learning alive during the Dark Ages. The one that sends out missionaries to the poorest countries in the world to teach and bring to aid the people. The one that works in inner cities and cares for people no matter how rich or poor they may be. The one that maintains a museum of the world’s greatest art as the heritage of all mankind, although doing so costs way more than it brings in by showing and displaying such works. You mean that rapacious institution?

“If those who lead you say to you, ‘See, the kingdom is in the sky,’ then the
birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, ‘It is in the sea,’ then the fish will
precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you
come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you
who are the sons of the living father.” – Jesus Christ.

I have no idea where you got that quote from, but it’s not from the Bible. The last revelation of God to man is Jesus Christ. And he never said anything like it in the whole of his life.

 

[Moonstruck888]

I do know what it means and I never misuse it. I was saying that atheists on CAF always use it as if it were carved in stone. If anyone looks silly it’s those who throw the word “law” around as if scientific theories/observations were the 10 Commandments.

I can’t say I’ve noticed, but if they are then we must advise them against it, musn’t we?

Only if he made the universe, which he did.

That is a matter of opinion.

The only way you could think God malevolent is to hate him for expecting you to obey his commands. If you don’t want to obey him, that’s up to you, but those of us who do know how true a friend he is and how much he loves us. The whole of the NT is about how God sent his Son out of love. You don’t want to accept that, that’s again up to you, but it’s true just the same.

Really? I managed to find several mentions of “wailing and nashing of teeth” in the NT.

As for obeying God’s commands, I’m afraid that is something I cannot support. Under no circumstances will I ever make my daughter marry her rapist, sell her to monotheist as a sex slave or stone any of my rebellious children to death.

I will however withold my sword from the blood of the infidel until such time as he threatens my safety and I will lie with my girlfriend after her menses, if I so choose.

That’s right, the rapacious institution that founded hospitals and universities and kept learning alive during the Dark Ages. The one that sends out missionaries to the poorest countries in the world to teach and bring to aid the people. The one that works in inner cities and cares for people no matter how rich or poor they may be. The one that maintains a museum of the world’s greatest art as the heritage of all mankind, although doing so costs way more than it brings in by showing and displaying such works. You mean that rapacious institution?

Oh, I’ve heard all about your “aid” to Africa. I believe you’ve missed out a letter there. Isn’t it AIDS you bring to Africa? How about women being seperated from their daughters for no other crime than having them out of wedlock?

Since you mention the Dark Ages, how about the millions of women that were burned at the stake as “witches” so that local clergy and landowners could claim their property?

Oh yes, I know all about your enlightened institutions. Even now they demand that Catholics hand over a tithe to them. Why is it that God has such a terrible time managing his finances?

I have no idea where you got that quote from, but it’s not from the Bible. The last revelation of God to man is Jesus Christ. And he never said anything like it in the whole of his life.

The Gospel of Thomas. I don’t believe it is a part of the Bible as decided upon by a committee’s split decision vote at the Council of Nicea.

 

[Della]

I can’t say I’ve noticed, but if they are then we must advise them against it, musn’t we?

Yes.

Really? I managed to find several mentions of “wailing and nashing of teeth” in the NT.

Only for those who know better but still embrace evil for the sake of it.

As for obeying God’s commands, I’m afraid that is something I cannot support. Under no circumstances will I ever make my daughter marry her rapist, sell her to monotheist as a sex slave or stone any of my rebellious children to death.

I will however withold my sword from the blood of the infidel until such time as he threatens my safety and I will lie with my girlfriend after her menses, if I so choose.

The Church doesn’t ask anyone to do any of these things. I haven’t a clue what you’re talking about.

Oh, I’ve heard all about your “aid” to Africa. I believe you’ve missed out a letter there. Isn’t it AIDS you bring to Africa? How about women being seperated from their daughters for no other crime than having them out of wedlock?

Again, this is nonsense and utterly not true. The Church never did any of these things or demanded they be done.

Since you mention the Dark Ages, how about the millions of women that were burned at the stake as “witches” so that local clergy and landowners could claim their property?

“Millions”? Do you know the population of Europe during that time wasn’t over one million? C’mon. This is also nonsense.

Oh yes, I know all about your enlightened institutions. Even now they demand that Catholics hand over a tithe to them. Why is it that God has such a terrible time managing his finances?

Demand? According to whom? Never heard of this, either.

The Gospel of Thomas. I don’t believe it is a part of the Bible as decided upon by a committee’s split decision vote at the Council of Nicea.

Like I said, Jesus never said that. The Gospel of Thomas was a very late version not written by an Apostle or anyone who was one of their disciples. That’s why it wasn’t included. Learn some real history. Please. For your own sake, if not so you won’t go on spreading anti-Catholic fantasies.

 

[Moonstruck888]

Only for those who know better but still embrace evil for the sake of it.

And what about the man, like me, who is so disposed as to be unable to believe? What evil deeds has he committed?

The Church doesn’t ask anyone to do any of these things. I haven’t a clue what you’re talking about.

I’m talking about Exodus, Deuteronomy and Leveticus. Part of your bible still, I believe, as well as the Protestant and Jewish bibles.

Again, this is nonsense and utterly not true. The Church never did any of these things or demanded they be done.

The Catholic Church has explicitly condemned the use of condoms in missions to Africa and even made the fraudulent claim that they increase the spread of HIV.

“Millions”? Do you know the population of Europe during that time wasn’t over one million? C’mon. This is also nonsense.

I was actually referring to the last millennium as a whole, and the world is a lot bigger than Europe you realise?

Demand? According to whom? Never heard of this, either.

Really? Maybe it’s only in Scotland it’s done. Catholics here set up direct debits so that a percentage of their earnings go to the Chruch.

Like I said, Jesus never said that. The Gospel of Thomas was a very late version not written by an Apostle or anyone who was one of their disciples. That’s why it wasn’t included. Learn some real history. Please. For your own sake, if not so you won’t go on spreading anti-Catholic fantasies.

Firstly, I am not anti Catholic. If you can’t stand by the deeds committed by your Church, the good deeds and the questionable ones, then you are only fooling yourself when you claim to be a Catholic.

By your standards none of the gospels is the word of Christ since they were all collated well after his death based on interpretations of what he and his disciples are alleged to have said. There is not one single primary historical source on what the man Jesus Christ said. The Bible roughly as it is today was edited and botched together with a number of paganistic concepts by a committee at the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

 

[buffalo]

The Catholic Church has explicitly condemned the use of condoms in missions to Africa and even made the fraudulent claim that they increase the spread of HIV.

It is not a fraudulent claim. Condoms are promoting sex without responsibility. Abstinence promotes the good of the other.

Uganda is a success.