Here it is in english translated by Michael L. Rodkinson in 1918 listed as being on p. 208
This is the poisonous result of the reformation. The entropic nature of “bible alone” thinking has lead to increasing factionalism and the mindset of competition for souls. There are team strategies, with winners and losers, and one-upmanship is the style of the day. Somewhere in all of this, the heartfelt search for the truth was lost.
I get emotional?
How funny! And you think you get under my skin? Why would it? You cannot even answer elementary questions. I just know how to corner prideful people like you and with ease and feel sorry for them for not accepting it.I have not said or implied what you say I do. I simply have not. I have stated that councils cannot close a canon. Only God can.Rightly,
I DID quit the discussion of the topics when I last said . . . I responded only to your explanation for your behavior.
And I am responding to your last post to me because I simply cannot allow you, sir, to (and I am going to be diplomatic about this) continue to not tell the truth about what I have stated and what I have asked.
I have NEVER said that God or the Holy Spirit are not the ONE’s SPEAKING in terms of sacred scripture.
I told you THAT WAS A GIVEN.
And you write your last post with the insintuation that people such as myself have denied Divine authorship of the scriptures and the canon. We have NEVER done that - NEVER.
But in your last post, you give yourself away: “I did not respond to the one that frames the question in a manner I do not agree with.”
That, quite frankly, is the boldest, yet most laughable, response to a question I have ever posed in my life: “I am not going to respond to a question because I don’t like the way it is asked.”
So you finally acknowledge you were asked uncomfortable questions, that you didn’t answer them, and that the REASON why is that you don’t like the “way they were asked”.
You could not even respond to a question that, in the way it is framed, presupposes what no one has dispute: that God is the author of sacred scripture and that He closed the canon.
The question I am talking about is: WHAT TYPE OF “DELIVERY MECHANISM” DID GOD EMPLOY TO COMMUNICATE HIS OT CANON TO MANKIND AND TO WHOM/WHEN WAS THIS DONE?
There is NOTHING improper or deceitful or anything else wrong with that question. You don’t like it because you don’t know.
If you did, you would answer. It is simply too easy to answer, based on the “facts” you claim you have at your fingertips and that are so obvious.
This was never a matter of who “won” or “lost”. It was a matter of credibility. And although I will readily acknowledge my shortcomings - and I have MANY - your intransigent arrogance is simply astounding. At least I attribute my ultimate conclusions to God as the originator.
You, sir, have not even had the courtesy to tell anyone how God told mankind what you say he told them and to whom and when this was done.
Prior to any council, books were considered canonical. True or false? Or modified answer but explain please.
What books were considered cannonical? Epistle of Clement? Book of Enoch? Ascension of Moses? The Talmud? Even the Apostles themselves quoted these books as facts and Scripture, but do you have these books in your Bible?
Is the Babylonian more reliable than Josephus? Do you consider the Talmud a reliable historical source? If it contradicts itself, and some passages, written by different authors agree with my view, why should I agree with your part of the Talmud?
No one is talking about any personalities. God decided the Bible, but to whom did God give the ability to recognize His books? Throughout the Bible, God always pick one to have that ability, and so in the Apostolic Age, God chose the Church to do that work. Or else you must admit that God threw a book down from heaven.
The NT calls certain books scripture. For example,
Prior to the Apostolic age, people were recognizing books as scripture. Who did that? Is it your opinion that the Apostles or church made them scripture? When and how?
What are some of the “manners” in which people knew this prior to the councils?
You are viewing it with the wrong mentality. To an Orthodox Jew that Talmud is very, extremely important. To Christians, it shows that Sirach was important and considered as Scripture to the Jews, among the Hagiographa, at the time this part of the Talmud was being compiled. Now the Talmud was compiled over a period of about 300 years, all after the time of Christ and His Apostles. You said the Canon was closed by the time of Christ. You said Josephus is your proof. You said the LXX did not contain the Deuterocanonical Books. You said the Deuterocanonical Books were added after 300 years of Christ’s Death and Resurrection. Does Josephus list the books he considered to be the only ones? No. Does the Talmud accept Sirach and then reject Sirach? Yes. The only thing contradictory in the Talmud is that the Jews over a period of time were discussing which books belonged among the Hagiographa. You may still say the Canon was closed…Sirach was only used as references…well later in the Talmud they ultimately reject Sirach…why?
No, the Jews had no defintion of Canonical at the time of Christ. They had a definition of Scripture. The Sadducees accepted only the Torah. While the Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead, hence this belief is emphasized strongly among the books of Wisdom, Sirach, and the Maccabees. The Essenes had a whole bunch of collected writings stored among themselves with no distinction of the books. One last thing that must be remembered, they were only in scrolls back then, not books.
Of course there were certain books considered Scripture back then at the time of Christ. To answer your question here, people believed these books were Scripture. Some people also beleived Enoch was Scripture too. Some Psalms of Solomon, and some also believed many other books including the Deuterocanonical Books were Scripture too. It takes the Church to definitively say these Books are indeed Scripture.
blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?ID=396
