Devotion to Mary is it ever "to much"

[ThatOneGuy92]

Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home. (John 19:27)

All throughout the Davidic Kingdom, from Solomon to Jesus, the mother of the king was the queen, and people went through the queen to get favors from the king. Jesus as the last of the Davidic Kings, and his Mother Mary, are no different. Jesus is a King, and Mary is his Queen.

In giving Mary to the “Beloved Disciple”, Jesus was giving a Queen and Mother to the his body, the Church.

-Tim-

I do understand the concept of Mary’s queenhood passing over from the Davidic Kingdom, and that within said kingdom the queen interceeded for favors from the king. However, I do not see how this necessarily proves the assertion that Jesus’ greatest wish is that we come to Him through Mary.****

 

[De_Montfort]

It doesn’t change the fact that choosing to do something and having to do something are two separate things entirely. Having no information to the contrary, I assume that St. Louis de Montfort picked his words carefully and said what he meant to. In addition, I also assume his writings have been translated accurately. If those two assumptions hold true, what he said was that Christ must reign through Mary, not chose or chooses to.

The word “must” is because He has “chosen” to reign only through Her as Queen Mother who subjects all to Her princely Son.

If one accepts it or not, God uses Mary to communicate himself to us. Also from De Montfort
“She who first gave him to the world will establish his kingdom in the world.”

Christ continues to come to us through His Holy Mother.

 

[TimothyH]

It doesn’t change the fact that choosing to do something and having to do something are two separate things entirely. Having no information to the contrary, I assume that St. Louis de Montfort picked his words carefully and said what he meant to. In addition, I also assume his writings have been translated accurately. If those two assumptions hold true, what he said was that Christ must reign through Mary, not chose or chooses to.

Like interpretation of the Bible, you can’t pick one passage and expect to have a complete understand.

I have probably read every word which St. Louis de Montfort wrote of which the Church is aware, his letters, his rules, even his will. St. Louis de Montfort stated several times in his writing that to say God cannot and does not act of his own initiative, or to say that God cannot or does not transmit grace directly to individuals, is heresy.

One really can’t pull a quote off the internet and expect to undersand his entire spirituality correctly. It’s spiritual writing, not theology. It isn’t the Summa. We don’t read St. John of the Cross like a doctrinal work and neither should St. Louis de Montfort’s work be read that way.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

I do understand the concept of Mary’s queenhood passing over from the Davidic Kingdom, and that within said kingdom the queen interceeded for favors from the king. However, I do not see how this necessarily proves the assertion that Jesus’ greatest wish is that we come to Him through Mary.****

That’s how ordinary people in the Old Testament came to the king, through the queen.

***Adonijah, son of Haggith, came to Bathsheba, the mother of Solomon. Do you come in peace?” she asked. “In peace,” he answered, ad he added, “I have something to say to you.” She replied, “Speak.” … noe there is one favor I would ask of you. Do not refuse me.” And she said, “Speak on.” He said, “Please ask King Solomon, who will not refuse you, to give me Abishag the Shunamite to be my wife.” Bathsheba replied, “Very well, I will speak to the king for you. ***(1 Kings 2:13-18)

God’s word in the Old Testament showing us how the Davidic Kingdom operated forshadows how Christ’s Kingdom would operate. The kings of the Old Testament and their queens are types of Christ and His Queen, and find their ultimate fulfillment in Christ and His Queen.

-Tim-

 

[jwinch2]

Like interpretation of the Bible, you can’t pick one passage and expect to have a complete understand.

I have probably read every word which St. Louis de Montfort wrote of which the Church is aware, his letters, his rules, even his will. St. Louis de Montfort stated several times in his writing that to say God cannot and does not act of his own initiative, or to say that God cannot or does not transmit grace directly to individuals, is heresy.

That is very good to know. Frankly, then people should stop throwing quotes out there which state otherwise or if they do, they should put them in proper context because that quote does not equal what you just wrote.

One really can’t pull a quote off the internet and expect to undersand his entire spirituality correctly. It’s spiritual writing, not theology. It isn’t the Summa. We don’t read St. John of the Cross like a doctrinal work and neither should St. Louis de Montfort’s work be read that way.

Agreed. That is why I have been harping on context throughout this thread. However, what is being a bit overlooked in all of this is the basic premise regarding the start of this thread. Can we take Marian devotion too far?

Here are my thoughts. I have had people take the quote from St. Louis de Montfort about Christ having to reign through Mary literally, both on this forum and in face to face conversations. I have had people take the quote from St. Bonaventure about Mary being the gateway to Heaven literally here on CAF. I have had people say on CAF that if we do not practice devotion to Mary we will go to hell because Mary will not vouch for us with Christ at our judgement. When I pointed out that this did not fall within Church Tradition on Mary, I was asked why I hate our Blessed Mother so much. In addition, as I have noted earlier I have had multiple priests tell me that they on more than one occasion throughout their time have had to pull parishioners aside to speak to them about going too far with their devotion to Mary. I have had people take the quote just posted above that Mary will establish Christ’s kingdom in the world literally when the Bible as well as sacred Tradition is quite clear that Christ will be coming to establish His kingdom. Nothing is said about Mary.

There is something else to consider as well. People on this thread keep saying that “well if they do x, y, and z they are not practicing true Marian devotion.” That may be true. However, who says that everyone is going to stay in between the lines all the time? The act of not practicing true Marian devotion can be an example of taking things too far in and of itself.

With all of that in mind and having seen nothing to convince me otherwise on this thread I am forced to hold my current conclusion that yes, devotion to Mary can be taken too far, and often is.

 

[De_Montfort]

That is very good to know. Frankly, then people should stop throwing quotes out there which state otherwise or if they do, they should put them in proper context because that quote does not equal what you just wrote.

Agreed. That is why I have been harping on context throughout this thread. However, what is being a bit overlooked in all of this is the basic premise regarding the start of this thread. Can we take Marian devotion too far?

Here are my thoughts. I have had people take the quote from St. Louis de Montfort about Christ having to reign through Mary literally, both on this forum and in face to face conversations. I have had people take the quote from St. Bonaventure about Mary being the gateway to Heaven literally here on CAF. I have had people say on CAF that if we do not practice devotion to Mary we will go to hell because Mary will not vouch for us with Christ at our judgement. When I pointed out that this did not fall within Church Tradition on Mary, I was asked why I hate our Blessed Mother so much. In addition, as I have noted earlier I have had multiple priests tell me that they on more than one occasion throughout their time have had to pull parishioners aside to speak to them about going too far with their devotion to Mary. I have had people take the quote just posted above that Mary will establish Christ’s kingdom in the world literally when the Bible as well as sacred Tradition is quite clear that Christ will be coming to establish His kingdom. Nothing is said about Mary.

There is something else to consider as well. People on this thread keep saying that “well if they do x, y, and z they are not practicing true Marian devotion.” That may be true. However, who says that everyone is going to stay in between the lines all the time? The act of not practicing true Marian devotion can be an example of taking things too far in and of itself.

With all of that in mind and having seen nothing to convince me otherwise on this thread I am forced to hold my current conclusion that yes, devotion to Mary can be taken too far, and often is.

Yet you ignore the fact, that Popes have approved True devotion to Mary by St. Louis de Montfort. His Spirituality is sound. I have used quotes in this thread to prove my points, I find it funny that it’s thought that if you quote something it has to be in exact order or it is “out of context”.

That may be you personal experience of people with devotoin to Mary, I have never met in my life anyone who had to be corrected because of a great love for Mary.

So is it being said in this thread by some that St. Louis de Montfort took Marian devotion to far?! Cause it sure seems that way.

Even after all the proof given by me and Tim and Brooklyn their statements are tossed to the side.

The simple fact is love of Mary in its true form cannot be taken to far, since love for Her is love of Christ, and all is for Christ. Those who deny Mary deny Christ.

From True devotion to Mary

“As in th natural life a child must have a father and a mother, so in the supernatural life of grace a true child of the Church must have God for his Father and Mary for his Mother. If he prides himself on having God for his Father but does not give Mary the tender affection of a true child, he is an imposter and his father is the devil”

I take this teaching very serious! So is this “going to far” Or is this wisdom from a Holy Saint that says Marian devotion should be taken seriously?

 

[jwinch2]

Yet you ignore the fact, that Popes have approved True devotion to Mary by St. Louis de Montfort. His Spirituality is sound. I have used quotes in this thread to prove my points, I find it funny that it’s thought that if you quote something it has to be in exact order or it is “out of context”.

You can put your little roll eyes sarcastic emoticons in if you like.

context ˈkɒntɛkst]
n

1. the parts of a piece of writing, speech, etc., that precede and follow a word or passage and contribute to its full meaning.
2. the conditions and circumstances that are relevant to an event, fact, etc.

[from Latin contextus a putting together, from contexere to interweave, from com- together + texere to weave, braid]

 

[jwinch2]

So is it being said in this thread by some that St. Louis de Montfort took Marian devotion to far?! Cause it sure seems that way.

No, that is not what I have said. I said that others have. I have seen it, both in person and here on the forums. Others have reported as much in this thread and in other threads which have been linked in this one.

Even after all the proof given by me and Tim and Brooklyn their statements are tossed to the side.

I have no doubt that you, Tim, and Brooklyn have a healthy Marian devotion within the teachings of the Church. Are you suggesting that you can speak for every other person on the planet?

The simple fact is love of Mary in its true form cannot be taken to far, since love for Her is love of Christ, and all is for Christ. Those who deny Mary deny Christ.

And is every person who practices Marian devotion practicing it its true form? No one, anywhere in the world is taking things too far or practicing Marian devotion outside of its true form?

I take this teaching very serious! So is this “going to far” Or is this wisdom from a Holy Saint that says Marian devotion should be taken seriously?

I am glad to you take it seriously. I encourage all Catholics to take Marian devotion seriously. However, that does not in anyway, shape or form, disprove the idea that some Catholics misinterpret such quotes and the ones posted above, take them literally, and in doing so take things outside of true devotion and go too far. Is that so hard for you to understand? Or do you feel that it is simply impossible?

 

[De_Montfort]

I am glad to you take it seriously. I encourage all Catholics to take Marian devotion seriously. However, that does not in anyway, shape or form, disprove the idea that some Catholics misinterpret such quotes and the ones posted above, take them literally, and in doing so take things outside of true devotion and go too far. Is that so hard for you to understand?

Ah it is to be taken “literally” and it’s a very clear statement at that!

It’s not hard for me to understand anything, I have shown and so have others that love of Mary in it’s proper form and yes I am saying St. Louis de Monforts teachings in NO WAY deprives Christ of His rightful honor and love. In fact it increases it!

It’s rather simple and it should NOT be made complicated! Love of Mary, is Love of Christ and anyone that thinks love of Mary obstructs Christ they do not understand the bond of Christ and Mary His Holy Mother. De Montfort said in his writtings that the learned and most people don’t understand their bond!

 

[jwinch2]

Ah it is to be taken “literally” and it’s a very clear statement at that!

Literal interpretation would suggest that Christ has no alternative but to rule through Mary. Yet, you, Tim, and others have provided context and other writings which suggests that the literal interpretation for that particular quote is not true and that Christ chooses to rule through Mary but is not required to do so. So no, it is not to be taken literally. If it was, no such interpretation would be needed.

It’s not hard for me to understand anything, I have shown and so have others that love of Mary in it’s proper form and yes I am saying St. Louis de Monforts teachings in NO WAY deprives Christ of His rightful honor and love. In fact it increases it!

I am simply suggesting that not everyone who practices Marian devotion does so in its proper form. I am suggesting that when quotes are presented without proper context and authoritative interpretation it can lead to people who do not understand the full scope of teachings of a particular saint, which can lead to improper Martian devotion.

That is all.

Unless you can come up with something which actually addresses the points I have made instead of retreading quotes that you have already posted which do not address the points I have made, I am pretty much done here.

 

[TrueLight]

What would be an example of Marian Worship?

 

[De_Montfort]

Literal interpretation would suggest that Christ has no alternative but to rule through Mary.

God has chose to do all things through Mary. God has willed it to be so. Like all the other posts that explain this…

TrueLight:

What would be an example of Marian Worship?

 

[Hesychios]

God has chose to do all things through Mary.

Where does this idea come from, exactly?

 

[TrueLight]

No, I’m serious. Is there anything you could think of where you would say, “Don’t do that. Mary is not to be worshipped?”

 

[De_Montfort]

No, I’m serious. Is there anything you could think of where you would say, “Don’t do that. Mary is not to be worshipped?”

I follow St. Louis de Montfort and I honor Mary not worship her. She is a creature but she is a creature exalted by God himself, He has put her above angels and men. My job is to imitate Christ, so like Him I submit to Mary as my Mother and Queen.

I read some of the posts given by someone at the beginning of this thread and I read someone had more than one statue of Mary and this some how puts devotion to Her “too far” Which I found rather funny…

I know the truth and the truth is that God has willed to do all things throiugh Mary. And she can only lead to Her Son, and any love given to Her, she unfailingly gives it to Her Son.

I have never met someone who loves Mary that rejects Her Son. In fact she increases their love for Him.

 

[De_Montfort]

Literal interpretation would suggest that Christ has no alternative but to rule through Mary. Yet, you, Tim, and others have provided context and other writings which suggests that the literal interpretation for that particular quote is not true and that Christ chooses to rule through Mary but is not required to do so. So no, it is not to be taken literally. If it was, no such interpretation would be needed.

From the history of the Church we know that not all knowledge of things come at once. Dogmas take time to come to fruit.

You are denying God the right to what He Himself has chosen to do, and thats to use Mary. Daughter of God the Father, Mother of God the Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit.
He came to us only through Her, and He continues to come to us only through Her. You are rejecting what God has laid out!

 

[jwinch2]

You are denying God the right to what He Himself has chosen to do, and thats to use Mary. Daughter of God the Father, Mother of God the Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit.
He came to us only through Her, and He continues to come to us only through Her. You are rejecting what God has laid out!

I am going to say this very, very clearly so that there can be no misunderstanding. I AM NOT REJECTING ANYTHING, AND I AM NOT DENYING GOD ANYTHING. I have stated above that I do not disagree with De Montfort’s teachings, merely that they can be misleading when taken out of context, and as a result can lead others to practice devotion to Mary in such a way that does not fall into the authentic Tradition of the Church and that St. Louis himself would not have approved of. At no time in this thread or any other have I denied the ability of God to do anything that He wishes. If you claim such again, you had darn well better provide proof or I will immediately report you to the moderation staff.

Are we clear on this?

Now to the actual subject which you continue to avoid despite having been asked repeatedly and by more than one person. Let’s take a look at your own words. In one post (#81), you claimed that the quote from De Montfort stating that Christ must rule through Mary did not literally mean that Christ had no choice but to rule through Mary, but instead meant that Christ chooses to rule through Mary. In another post (#88), you claim that the quote is meant to be interpreted literally. Which is it? Both of your statements cannot be true, yet you made them both nonetheless.

In addition, earlier in the thread (post #44), you state that persons who put Christ in the background due to their focus on Mary are not practicing the true form of devotion to Mary. Now, you refuse to even agree that it is possible for someone to practice unauthentic devotion to Mary or, that in the history of the world, anyone has done so. So, which is it? Is it possible, per your own words to practice Marian devotion in such a way that it is not true? Or, is it simply impossible to ever practice Marian devotion in such a way?

They are your words, please explain them. And kindly do so without misstating mine this time around.

You have also been asked other direct questions by different members which up to this time, you have ignored. Please answer those as well.

 

[De_Montfort]

I am going to say this very, very clearly so that there can be no misunderstanding. I AM NOT REJECTING ANYTHING, AND I AM NOT DENYING GOD ANYTHING. I have stated above that I do not disagree with De Montfort’s teachings, merely that they can be misleading when taken out of context, and as a result can lead others to practice devotion to Mary in such a way that does not fall into the authentic Tradition of the Church and that St. Louis himself would not have approved of. At no time in this thread or any other have I denied the ability of God to do anything that He wishes. If you claim such again, you had darn well better provide proof or I will immediately report you to the moderation staff.

Are we clear on this?

I did not mean to offend you at all, My goal is to share devotion to Mary and love of Her so if I offended you in anyway by misunderstanding, I apologize!

jwinch2:

Now to the actual subject which you continue to avoid despite having been asked repeatedly and by more than one person. Let’s take a look at your own words. In one post (#81), you claimed that the quote from De Montfort stating that Christ must rule through Mary did not literally mean that Christ had no choice but to rule through Mary, but instead meant that Christ chooses to rule through Mary. In another post (#88), you claim that the quote is meant to be interpreted literally. Which is it? Both of your statements cannot be true, yet you made them both nonetheless.

My goal is not to fight with you! I went back and looked at what was posted and what you are talking about and what I thought you were talking about was wrong.
In post #85 the quote I use in there I thought you were saying that wasn’t to be taken “literally”

What I see now is you are asking where I stand on Christ reigning through Mary. It is what I said that the word “must” is because Christ, “God” has chosen it to be so, that all things are through Mary. That doesnt change that it is to be taken “literally” because it is God’s will to use Mary! The “must” is to be taken “literally” because it’s God’s will. I hope you understand where I am coming from here.

jwinch2:

In addition, earlier in the thread (post #44), you state that persons who put Christ in the background due to their focus on Mary are not practicing the true form of devotion to Mary. Now, you refuse to even agree that it is possible for someone to practice unauthentic devotion to Mary or, that in the history of the world, anyone has done so. So, which is it? Is it possible, per your own words to practice Marian devotion in such a way that it is not true? Or, is it simply impossible to ever practice Marian devotion in such a way?

They are your words, please explain them. And kindly do so without misstating mine this time around.

You have also been asked other direct questions by different members which up to this time, you have ignored. Please answer those as well.

I myself have never come across anyone who knows Mary that puts Christ in the backround. If anyone would, then they do not know what True devotion to Mary is, because True devotion to Mary has Christ at it’s center.

Like I said before Mary can only lead to her Son, devotion to Her does not counter devotion to Her Son. Devotion to Mary is devotion to Jesus

My goal is to show that True devotion to Mary is approved by the Church, and that it’s ok to be followed. That just because someone misunderstands it, doesn’t mean it should be tossed aside. If you read True devotion, St. Louis de Montfort makes it very clear that Christ is at its center, and going to Mary is only a way of reaching the goal we seek which is Jesus Her Son.

Im sorry I misunderstood your posts. I will do better to try to understand what your trying to say!
God Bless

 

[GraceDK]

What would be an example of Marian Worship?

Attributing her with godly attributes such as being source of grace, salvation and forgiveness. Assuming her to be as powerful as Christ. Assuming her to hold away the wrath of Christ who died for our sins and who loves us most of all, as though she could ever love us as much as he has loved us.

The debate is now moving into an interesting phase… the one that deals with whether prayers or songs to Mary are to be taken litterally or poetically.

When you for example pray the Salve Regina, do you do so litterally:" Hail holy queen, mother of mercy, my life my sweetness and a my hope", or poetically?

I must see it as a poetical song. To mean litterally that Mary is our hope would, for me, be a sign of attributing her with godly attributes which is a very dangerous thing to do… Since I don’t agree with the use of words at all, I cannot in good conscience sing that song, although I used to do it without questioning anything.

The way I like to speak, both in my spiritual life and in my normal daily life, is that I truly mean what I say litterally. I think that in matters religious this is particularly important, as it might cause scandal and confusion if we dont.

 

[GraceDK]

Sounds like a rejection of the Spouse of the Holy Spirit. It’s like if one is married and asked to come to a party, but the person says, don’t bring your wife, I don’t care to much for her, and frankly I don’t understand her. Now would that not offend the Spouse.

Accusing me of offending the Holy Spirit is a very serious allegation. It just proves how far you are willing to insult other Christians if they don’t follow your private devotions.

It is GOD who choses to do everything through Mary, not because he ‘has’ to but because he ‘wants’ to. It is in no way showing a weakness to God, it’s just the simple fact that God uses Mary, “She is his mystic channel, his aqueduct, through which he causes his mercies to flow gently and abundantly.”

I cannot really understand what you mean by this language. I respond you should read the New Testament more. If you wanna truly know Christ and all that He is willing and able to do for you, without the help of any creature, study Scripture. Its written He chooses to lay down his life freely for you, to save you, he does that in and of himself, united with His Father. You seem to be far out in private revelations and saint writings, trying even to make these into doctrinal binding documents for all faithful Catholics. Sorry my friend, but with your statements in here I choose not to follow your example and your spirituality… I wonder, have you even got as cultivated a relationship with the Father and Son and Holy Spirit? God is the sole author of your life, Christ is the sole author of making you into a child of God.