Devotion to Mary

[Lorarose]

Mary does not perform miracles of her own accord just like the apostles did not perform miracles of their own accord.

The power is God’s and we can clearly see that God often works through His creatures.

 

[edwinG]

mrS4ntA:

Actually, those were my words; I was paraphrasing because I read his book True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary quite some time ago. But he did indeed use romantic language, but I see it as one filled with fillial love to this worthy Mother

Some other saint (was it St Bernard?) said you could never love Mary enough as you could never compare to the love Jesus gave to His mother.

That’s a fallacious argument, putting words into our mouth. Christ, being perfect, honoured His mother. Mary never wanted anything for herself. “Let it be done to me according to Thy will,” she said. Her fiat is always a source of inspiration for us. Her glory is totally God-given. Indeed, Christ ascended into Heaven; but Mary was assumed. The Church’s doctrine, too, teaches the assumption – NOT ascension – of Mary.

EXACTLY why we honour her so much. Her humilty is one of the main traits of Mary that we revere. Many saints, including St Louis de Montfort that you belittled, reflected and preached a GREAT deal on the Blessed Virgin’s profound humility.

That’s just your impression. In every apparition of Our Lady (that the Church approved) she always reminded us of her Son, how the world needs to repent to appease God’s wrath, how she could intercede on the world’s behalf to her Son’s mercy. In no apparition, approved or otherwise, did she ask, “worhip me for I am glorious.” Get your facts right.

Hi mrS4ntA,
I receive my facts from the Catholic members on this list. I assume the members here are knowledgeable on Catholicism.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

Lisa4Catholics:

MercyGate when Jesus what taken to the temple simeon told her a sword would pierce her heart.This is the seven sorrows of Mary and my purpose for pasing it is to try to encourage Edwin to see something besides someone God used like a** mean unloving dictator**.It is a perfectly approved devotion.

Hi Lisa4Catholics,
Your continued use of these terms leads me to believe you have no scriptural support for your belief.
You encourage me, thank you
walk in love
edwinG

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

edwinG:

Hi Lisa4Catholics,
Your continued use of these terms leads me to believe you have no scriptural support for your belief.
You encourage me, thank you
walk in love
edwinG

Oh,on the contrary,by the way I was Church of Christ before I was Catholic I know Scripture very well.It is your misuse of scripture I am exasperated with:nope: Jesus died for us and you act like He is uncaring and that saddens me.

 

[edwinG]

Lorarose:

God is the God of the living…not the dead.
Moses was “dead” but there he was standing next to our transfigured Savior - TALKING with Him!!

The martyrs in Revelation are “dead” and yet there there are in heaven TALKING to God!

I cannot find any scriptural basis for this notion that the “dead” are incapable of communicating with God, incapable of intercession, and that God would not “resort” to including them in His plan for mankind.

Hi again Lorarose,
Was Moses taken? I dont know which passage you are referring to when you talk of the martyrs but are you sure they are working down here, performing miracles under their own name. Was Moses working miracles using his own name?
A scriptural passage to support that the dead are not working is
Hebrews 7:20-25.
Talk to me about this and let me know what your thoughts are?
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

Lisa4Catholics:

I am sorry for you Edwin:nope: If you call the Blessed Virgin Mary dead then you really do not have much hope do you?You must not have much not think much about Jesus or the Holy Spirit or God the Father.Now Edwin I feel sad for you.God Bless:crying:

Hi Lisa4Catholics,
I used the word “dead,” especially for your sensitivity. Surely most members would understand my meaning.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[Zooey]

edwinG:

Hi Mickey,
Well the Son has a name, Jesus Christ, and His name is to be glorified. What is wrong with using His name if you want to praise or glorify Him.
There is no shortage of posts supporting miracles attritubed to Mary. Give the glory to Christ as His name is the name to be honored, His name is the name with all of the authority. What would you say if Benny Hinn kept on saying " Look at all the miracles I am doing. How great is the name “Benny Hinn”. No in every case the glory belongs to Jesus. What if Benny Hinn said, “every time I say I am the greatest I really mean Christ is the greatest” How would you react?
walk in love
edwinG

I think that it is scandalous to compare a disgraceful character like Benny Hinn to the Lord Jesus’ beloved mother Mary.
My reaction to Benny Hin is disgust, regardless of what he does or does not say. And I wish you would apologize to those of us who have been scandalized by this “comparison”.

 

[Lost_Found]

edwinG:

Hi Lost and Found,
… Where is Mary? Is she omnipresent also? Christ lives and is maturing in us and the Holy Spirit lives in us. If Mary does not live in us are you saying that Christ and the Holy Spirit are insufficient. Do you believe that each one has his work and one should not be doing the work of another.
Are you saying you need the Hail Marys to activate the Holy Spirit? That means that God wont come to you unless you go to Mary first. Therefore salvation depends on Mary, not on God. Is this what you are saying?
Walk in love
edwinG

Hi Edwin: To all of your questions “I’m I saying this, I’m I saying that?..” - My answer is no, I’m just saying what I’m saying, not what you are suggesting that I’m saying.
Look Edwin, I often talk with Catholics at my parish and they say to me “Naw, I don’t pray to Mary, I go directly to God.” And guess what? Why would I have a problem with that! Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s perfectly acceptable for any Catholic.
In your own case Edwin, you can cut everything out you don’t feel is necessary. Maybe keep stripping stuff away until you’ve left Jesus standing around by Himself, if that makes you feel less of a threat to Him.
But in my own case, I see an ideal role model who says “Yes” to God when He asks something of her and in my own mind it’s quite clear that she glorifies our God. So, when in two of the Gospels it is said " Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself", I like to feel that I am accepting all of God’s many gifts to do just that. Hope that clarifies for you.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Zooey:

I think that it is scandalous to compare a disgraceful character like Benny Hinn to the Lord Jesus’ beloved mother Mary.
My reaction to Benny Hin is disgust, regardless of what he does or does not say. And I wish you would apologize to those of us who have been scandalized by this “comparison”.

Thanks Zooey I appreciate you speaking out.God Bless you

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Elzee:

I have to admit I cringed when I heard one of the prayers in the Square say *‘Mary…*worthy of our praise and worship, pray for us’. I was hoping it was just a bad translation on the ‘worship’ part, because the interpreter was having a difficult time.

The translator was abysmal. There was no excuse for hiring a translator who did not know Catholicism.

 

[edwinG]

mrS4ntA:

well said; Edwin, you still hasn’t replied to my post others’ posts. Please explain how Mary doing wonders is stealing God’s glory while the apostles doing miracles and wonders recorded in the Scripture, as well as the prophets and angels, deemed NOT stealing God’s glory. I see double standard here!

Hi mrS4ntA,
Well Mary is not on this earth.
Hebrews 7 :22 By so much more Jesus has become a suetly of a better covenant
23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing
24 But He, because He continues forever, has an enchangable priesthood
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
IT is the work of the priests. Is Mary ever described as a priests and even if she is she has been prevented by death from continuing whereas Christ lives forever.
Well all the apostles did there work in Jesus’s Holy name and while they were alive. Are any still doing work and now doing it in their own name. Tell me if Paul or Peter or any other prophet or apostle from the 1st century or before is doing work now and in their own name. Now the Catholic members here keep telling me that mary is doing signs and wonders and healing now and you are praising her for this. The glory is not going to Jesus. Read your posts. Mary is doing it. Jesus is spelt J_E_S_U_S. not m-a-r-y.
Your own words **“how Mary doing wonders” **See not Christ doing them but Mary, your very own words at the top of this post.
Walk in love
edwinG

 

[Ani_Ibi]

EdwinG: I don’t have a lot of time to be in a ‘discussion’ with you. You omit the human from your whole little scenario. JPII was a human.

He lost his mother when he was 11. Mary, when she appeared at Fatima, had something to say to this particular human being who became Pope John Paul II. JPII had to get shot to wake up to this reality.

JPII was the ship between the tower which was Mary and the tower which was the Eucharist. (The Bosco prophecy). I have hitched my ship to him and will weather the storm that is coming.

It’s just too much to ask to wait 15 days isn’t it, Edwin? No need to answer. I’m done here.

 

[Axion]

edwinG:

Did Job suffer, Did he lose all his children? Seven sons and three daughters, and a very large household. All murdered. Over history thousand of prophets. Where is your wisdom to decide how God will judge all ? I dont make that judgement, but you have placed some mary at the head of all these gallant saints. Mary lost one Son, someone she knew was destined. Is her suffering greater than Job’s wife who lost 10 children. Does any one know how Mary died? Dont misunderstand me. I am asking you where your balance is?

Yet none of these great and holy people you mention is mother of God the Son. That’s the difference. Mary has greatest honour for many reasons:

1. She is mother of God the Son, Jesus Christ.
2. She therefore has the rank of Queen Mother to the heavenly King of the line of David.
3. She has a pivotal role in salvation history as the woman whose obedience counterbalaned the disobedience of Eve.
4. As mother of Jesus. She is also mother of his adopted Brethren, who are the Church.

Paul is not healing people in his name today. Neither are Luke or Peter. None of these people claimed to do any supernatural work by their own hand then or now. Just your mary.

The cases of Peter, Paul and Luke are different to Mary in that they do not appear as “great signs” in scripture as Mary does in Isaiah 7 and Revelation 12. Nor were they assumed bodily into heaven like Moses and Elijah, who appeared to Jesus and the Apostles at the transfiguration.

As for supernatural work “by their own hand”, we see the apostles performing healing and other miracles in Acts 5 - 10, without pronouncing specific formulas saying “This healing is from God, not me.” The same goes for Moses. We even find Peter’s handkerchief curing people!

So Mary is close to the foreground on 4 occasions. I am not asking for an answer but can you name more than four occasions for Moses, for Paul, for Peter, for John, for Abraham, for Samuel, for David …

I was just responding to your point that Mary is always invisible in the background.
And like Eve, Mary’s appearance in scripture is pivotal. I think some people believe that just because, say Paul, wrote a lot, that makes him more important than others.

1John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God; Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God. Well, I dont know and I doubt you know if this spirit which leads you to Jesus is one who confesses this. It seems odd to me that if you are led to Jesus why are so many dry. Why was Mother Theresa dry. Something doesnt jell.

No. You are making assumptions. Many people go through **periods ** of spiritual dryness. This can be known as “The Dark Night of the Soul” discussed by St John of the Cross. Even Jesus had a period when He felt separation from God. As did the Apostles. Not everything is always happy-clappy.

Even evil spirits believe in Jesus. All of the miracles here seem to be performed by mary. How I wish I was wrong.

Do you not know that the charge that the pharisees made against Jesus - was that His healing power came from evil spirits?

Jesus says this:
Mark3 25-26 "If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come."

In all the approved Marian appearances She calls for prayer and repentance, and for people to follow Jesus. As we can see from the above, Satan cannot do this.

How else are we told in the Bible to discern whether things are of God or not?

1 Cor 12.3: You know when you were pagans somehow or other you were influenced by and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says “Jesus be cursed”. and no one can say Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit."

At Guadeloupe Mary proclaimed Her Son, Jesus, as Lord. At Fatima, She gave the Children a new prayer: ** “Oh my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fire of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those who are most in need.”**

The teachings, messages, and also the fruits of the approved Marian Apparitions have been overwhelmingly for good, for healing, spiritual growth and the increase of Faith.

 

[Lorarose]

Was Moses taken? I dont know which passage you are referring to when you talk of the martyrs but are you sure they are working down here, performing miracles under their own name. Was Moses working miracles using his own name?

You are evading the point Edwin.
You claimed the dead cannot speak to God - that God does not “reduce” Himself to speaking with the dead.
And yet…here is the “dead” Moses standing side by side with Christ during the transfiguration.
What’s with that?
Revelations 6:9 describes the martyrs (yes…dead people) speaking to God. God responds by giving them robes and encouraging them to be patient.
We see the “elders” in Rev 7:11. Dead people…speaking to God.
Revelation 19 …dead folks again.
Revelations tells us the prayers of the saints are bowls of incense in the midst of the throne (Rev 5)

Hebrew 7:20-25
This is a comparison between the priesthood of the Old Covenant vs. the priesthood of Jesus Christ.
The sacrifices of the old priesthood vs. sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

This verse has nothing to do with whether or not heavenly souls can have dialogue with God.

I have to tell you…I think it is SO BIZARRE that christians actually believe that once we get to heaven and are in the very presence of God - that we will mysteriously lose the ability to converse with Him - or that He would not “reduce” Himself to conversing with the souls He worked so hard to save.
It is also an unscriptural belief.

 

[mrS4ntA]

Axion:

EdwinG:

1John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God; Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God. Well, I dont know and I doubt you know if this spirit which leads you to Jesus is one who confesses this. It seems odd to me that if you are led to Jesus why are so many dry. Why was Mother Theresa dry. Something doesnt jell.

No. You are making assumptions. Many people go through **periods ** of spiritual dryness. This can be known as “The Dark Night of the Soul” discussed by St John of the Cross. Even Jesus had a period when He felt separation from God. As did the Apostles. Not everything is always happy-clappy.

Periods of spiritual dryness is often referred to as a “period in the desert,” where one is tempted in his spiritual dryness. One does well to take as source of inspiration from Christ’s own fasting and temptings for forty days in the desert.

You see, it is not indeed always happy-clappy

 

[mrS4ntA]

edwinG:

Hi mrS4ntA,
I receive my facts from the Catholic members on this list. I assume the members here are knowledgeable on Catholicism.
walk in love
edwinG

and as you have our responses, you kept reading what you wanted to read, not the responses themselves. It’s rather frustrating, really…

 

[mrS4ntA]

OK EdwinG,

I’ll say it again and I’ll say it clearly, in her apparitions, in what we believe, and in the teachings of the Church – never once did Mary is given the sole credit of the miracles performed. Would you like me to repeat that?

What she does is always for God and of God. “Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam.” She constantly points to her Son, as is the case in the wedding in Cana, “do whatever He tells you.”

yes, we thank her with immense gratitude for what she does for us, for her glorious intercession; but in no way does this unglorify God. On the contrary, God is ever glorified in this magnificent creation of His. Does praising a painting de-glorify the painter? Surely the painter would be delighted to ahve his painting highly appraised!

In all the apparition she always referred to God. God allowed her to do this or that, she’d always said; not I did this or I did that by my own. No one can do anything by his own without God, anyway…

 

[Pug]

edwinG:

The lessons I feel we are to learn from people like Jacob and Esau is the abundance one receives by accepting and hence being loved and blessed by God.

Edwin, I feel if God didn’t first love me and give me grace, then I would not have accepted. Lots of days I feel that “what do I have that I have not received?” For me, I think of the word “received” as meaning it was given to me as a gift, primarily, but also that I took it. But even my taking or accepting seems like a gift. Of course, God does bless us after we accept, but I think some of the gift or love is before accepting.

So we are equal in that anything we have, we received, even Mary. But her deeds show forth His glory better than mine do. And different people receive different things. (you know, like each got a measure of faith or different gifts according to the grace given us).

I am positive that God in his judgment knows how to balance the scales.

Yes, I agree. Some people seem to have less opportunity, but God figures it all out anyway.

Her reward is not having her name magnified on earth beside Jesus’s name.

I do find her next to Jesus in a way in the “blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb”. Both are side by side there, though not by actual name.

The reward that matters is in heaven. I think there can be rewards here on earth, though, but I don’t know what rewards here on earth she might have gotten.

Past bed-time. Nite!

 

[Mickey]

edwinG:

Hi Mickey,
Thanks for the kind post.Hebrews 7:22 By so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.
23 Also there were many priests,because they were prevented by death from continuing,
24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is Holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens.
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.

Hi Edwin,

Thank you for the Scripture. I never get tired of reading Scripture. There is nothing here I disagree with.

Mary gives us a beautiful example of Grace. Jacob’s ladder was a dream, but it became a reality when the ladder came down from Heaven to Mary, and the angel descended upon her. A bridge between Heaven and earth was formed when Mary said, “YES”. Theosis is a process of divinization or deification where we draw closer to God in our desire to become Christ-like. Theosis begins with the Theotokos (virgin & Child). Jesus, in the womb of Mary, ignites a ripple effect that begins the process of our theosis. There seems to be a double parodox (contradiction) here. First, how can a virgin become a mother? Second, how can the child be fully Divine and fully human? These are miraculous mysteries. Jesus took his flesh from Mary. She is the mother of God the Son! Jesus came through her, and so it is proper to honor her and to ask her to pray for us unceasingly. You cannot reason your way out of these truths through logic.

I pray that you will one day be able to contemplate and celebrate these mysteries by grace, through faith.

God Bless you,
Mickey

 

[Huiou_Theou]

So my point is " as we dont have wisdom we are to love everyone. We dont know who will be the next one saved. To hate some killer ( as Paul was) is wrong. He, the killer, may be the next one saved. " We need to see all people as saved, it is our prayer, and to see their sin as chains binding them and blinding. These chains and blindfolds are the work of evil spirits. Christ is the difference. Every person sins but in Christ is victory. Look beyond the sin and see the person desperately needing Christ for salvation. Love the person in spite of their sin. From the opposite viewpoint, if you only loved those without sin, who would you love?
walk in love
edwinG

I have also said that the hate God has is not the hate of malice.
Do you think it impossible to hate someone (not maliciously?).
The sun shines on the good and bad alike, but God still hates the wicked – as the psalm says.

The kind of hate I am talking about is different from the way the word is normally used in English. I wish the translation was different, but the translators have already written what we have.

We are to love everyone, and bear no malice toward them.
But that isn’t to say that we shouldn’t seperate ourselves from the actively wicked just as God does.
(How many times did Jesus duck and dodge the Pharasees and Sadducees when they tried to kill him?)

When you say love them in spite of their sin; what sin are you talking about? Not all sin is alike.

Unfortunately, you can’t seperate the sin from the sinner.

The point of this is not that some people cannot be forgiven, but that sin (a particular kind) is incompatible with God. And that the SINNER is punished on account of the sin. If the body is dead because of sin, that death is a punishment .

Reading many of your posts, I come to the conclusion that you do not understand what sin is, or the different words which are translated as a single word ‘sin’ – but which have different meanings.

If Jeusus did not have a sinless body – we would not be saved .
Jesus saved us through his sinless flesh – even though he was born into a line related to Adam (in whom all have sinned?).

This last thought is connected to Mary, but without kowing what sin is, we can’t discuss it yet. ( full stop ).

When you say that ‘who would I love’ if I only loved sinless people, you have already misunderstood me.
But I laugh!

Before this man came to Jesus, I could have loved him to the fullest:

19You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.’

20“Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
\QUOTE]

Notice: Jesus does not convict the man of sin, or call him a liar.
The man was not guilty of transgressing the Law by his own actions.

This man was Just in the sense of the Law. Can you convict him of an actual sin based on scripture? What did he do?

The doctrine of original sin is not an all or nothing argument.
What is original sin (the sin of Adam in whom all have sinned) to you?
What does it mean?