Dialog with Jehovas Witness

[ChosenOne7]

Short answer is yes, but Philippians 2:5 tells us that Jesus was in the form of God but was “emptied” by taking the form of a human.

Paul was encouraging the Christians to have the same humility as Jesus had… That same chapter Paul says
9Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Definition of exalted means to raise in rank, power, or character. Can ask yourself again, If Jesus was equal to God why did God have to exalt him not only on earth but also in heaven… Does it not make you wonder

 

[ChosenOne7]

The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are of the same essence/substance

I see what you saying but where in the Bible does it say that…

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Agree… Having the same nature does make you equal in dignity… But you didn’t answer the question, Does it make you equal in power? Husband and wife are equal in dignity… Agree… Question: Does it make them equal in power?

They are equal in being. The Son is Divine just as the Father is Divine. That’s what the exact Greek of John 1:1 is saying and what the WT booklet said in those two English translations.

The term “power” here is best understood in the fact that the Son is said to be supreme creator of all things, which we know creating is a chief power of divinity.

you will be surprised to what people believe… Remember we are known for our preaching work we preach to many people of different beliefs… The belief of the trinity is not the same in all denominations… Some can’t even explain it an say must just have faith, others say it’s a mystery, others do say Jesus is the Father, an we would often ask them if he is the father to who was he praying when he said “our father who is in heaven, let your name be sanctified”

I would disagree here. If you pick up any textbook on the Trinity, the basic claim will be the same. Many people don’t understand the Trinity, but people who are confused about a doctrine should not be the basis by which you judge a doctrine. Right?

So the real question is, if the correct understanding of the Trinity is the error that the JWs want to address, then they need to be stating the correct understanding. Otherwise, it’s not the Trinity that they oppose, but rather some other doctrine (which Christians would also oppose!).

Lol have you not seen the weird things people has been saying about us, damn… Ive read some comments on this thread of people saying Jw are like this and believe in this and that… I sit over here and think to myself where do they get all there information… You can easily go on the Internet type in Google about us an bam you get a lot of bad things or negative things you can say, you will believe it without even knowing a thing about us and our background or history… And yes Jw’s are aware of the history of this organisation it’s not kept secret like someone said. How do you think I must feel reading these things which is not true… I don’t mind people asking me what is our beliefs and why do we belief in this or that

Yes, join the club! There is no worse feeling than hearing your own beliefs misrepresented. No Catholic around here should be misrepresenting the JWs, and in fairness the JWs should not be misrepresenting Christians. We can sometimes make mistakes, which is why correcting is important, but we should be quoting official sources when we evaluate the other side. So just as I try not to misrepresent the JWs, I think in fairness the JWs need to stop misrepresenting the Trinity.

 

[Goya]

…
So my question again… If Jesus and his Father has the same devine nature does it make them equal in power? That’s like a yes or no answer…

…

Certainly–especially if they share the same will.

Didn’t you confess as much earlier? That the JW’s say that the Son and the Father are bound by the same will?

we believe the holy spirit is Gods active force, the Son who is Jesus works according to the fathers will as the bible says and so does the holy spirit they do not do things according to there [sic] own will

If they share the same will, they share the same power, for no power exists outside the will, and there is no conflict between any powers, as there can be no conflict of wills, as there is no plurality of wills, but one will–and therefore, one–and the same power–and therefore, one God (i.e.–the Blessed, Sacred and Holy Trinity).

 

[Goya]

I see what you saying but where in the Bible does it say that…

Where in the Bible does it say “the Bible”?

Where in the Bible does anyone prophesize any scripture that would subsequently come into being? The Bible, specifically, the NT, prophesies a church. The Bible was granted to that Church, by the Holy Spirit, through members of the Church (and therefore through the Church herself), to the Church.

So before you go and try to beat the spouse of the Holy Spirit over her head with the gift HE gave her, perhaps you can clarify for us, upon what authority you, or your man-made JW ‘church’, founded some 1,800 years after the one founded by Christ Himself, would pretend to do so?

 

[ajcstr]

And yes Jw’s are aware of the history of this organisation it’s not kept secret like someone said. How do you think I must feel reading these things

Sorry if you are offended, I don’t think anyone here is trying to offend you.

If you are aware of your history would you agree that your roots trace back to the seventh day Adventists and back to the Millerites? Would you agree that early Jehovah Witnesses celebrated Christmas (1925 or so) and were encouraged to give Watchtower material as Christmas gifts? If you wanted to read old Watchtower literature, how far back can you go. Is this material available to you from say 1910-1920?

This is a forum to share information and if I am stating anything that is not true I certainly would want to know about it. I am sure not all the things we hear about the JW are true, this is the perfect opportunity to get our facts straight.

Page 8 of the December 2011 Awake magazine states:

“The Catholic hierarchy certainly knew that many of its teachings were based, not on
the Bible, but on church tradition. Doubtless, this is one of the reasons for their reluctance
to allow their faithful to have access to the Bible. By reading it, people would become
aware of the incompatibility between their church doctrine and Scripture.”

So this is what is in print about the Catholic Church in JW publications. The implication here is that the Catholic Church kept the people from the Bible and taught doctrines that were contrary to it, but for some reason still preserved the Bible, and made copies of it for 1200 or so years. No Protestant or JW would have a bible if not for the Catholic Church.

 

[ajcstr]

I see what you saying but where in the Bible does it say that…

Philippians 2:5 for the Father and Son at least.

 

[ajcstr]

So I’m going to have a Jehovas Witness come over in a week or two. He’s already been over once and we didn’t make much headway with anything. He called me the other day and said he would like to come over and discuss the church. He wants to figure out from the bible, and the bible only what the one and true church is. What bible passages do you all recommend? Obviously Peter and the Rock.

Please keep us posted on how you make out !

 

[Waynec]

Okay so where in the Bible does it say they have equal power?

See Philippians 2:5 His state was divine yet he did not cling to his equality with God…you can look up the entire quote for yourself.

I don’t understand how this would prove Jesus is God or has anything to do with the trinity… Unless you on another topic…

We were talking about the JW’s belief that Jesus meant that we are to “eat” his words and not his body and blood which of course is a wrong interpretation by the Watchtower.
Jesus absolutely meant that his flesh and blood are real food.

 

[Waynec]

Paul was encouraging the Christians to have the same humility as Jesus had… That same chapter Paul says
9Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Definition of exalted means to raise in rank, power, or character. Can ask yourself again, If Jesus was equal to God why did God have to exalt him not only on earth but also in heaven… Does it not make you wonder

I would say here that Jesus is spoken of in his humanity. So in his humanity he can be exalted by God.

 

[Waynec]

I see what you saying but where in the Bible does it say that…

Catholics do not subscribe to sola scripture. First there is Tradition, Bible, Magestirum. The apostles believed in the Trinity from the beginning.
As did the doctors of the church that were writing 90 or so years after Christ. Not much later than the apostles themselves.

 

[Waynec]

Where in the Bible does it say “the Bible”?

Where in the Bible does anyone prophesize any scripture that would subsequently come into being? The Bible, specifically, the NT, prophesies a church. The Bible was granted to that Church, by the Holy Spirit, through members of the Church (and therefore through the Church herself), to the Church.

So before you go and try to beat the spouse of the Holy Spirit over her head with the gift HE gave her, perhaps you can clarify for us, upon what authority you, or your man-made JW ‘church’, founded some 1,800 years after the one founded by Christ Himself, would pretend to do so?

Excellent!!! I am sorry I didn’t think of this

 

[ajcstr]

On the question of authority:

Protestant would say The Bible

JW would say Watchtower and Bible

Catholic would say Bible, Sacred Tradition, Magisterium

What I would say is really, the Bible can’t be an authority because as much as people argue the point the Bible can’t interpret itself. It can be authoritative, if that makes sense, but still needs an interpretation or tradition to go along with it even if its not specifically called a tradition.

Sola Scriptura makes it possible for a man to read the bible and split from his current “denomination” and start his own because this is what the Bible REALLY says. Purely on the basis of Sola Scriptura no one can say Charles Russell is wrong if he read the scripture in good faith and cam to his conclusions honestly.

The Catholic Church and the Watchtower do share the concept that readily admits that the bible needs to be interpreted properly. Of course the similarities end there but the frustrating thing is if you read John 6 as a JW and I read John 6 as a Catholic we are taking two vastly different ideas away based on our traditions. So really an argument based on the Bible has to be a futile exercise.

The argument then has to be which tradition is worthy of trust.

 

[Dorothy]

On the question of authority:

Protestant would say The Bible

JW would say Watchtower and Bible

Catholic would say Bible, Sacred Tradition, Magisterium

What I would say is really, the Bible can’t be an authority because as much as people argue the point the Bible can’t interpret itself. It can be authoritative, if that makes sense, but still needs an interpretation or tradition to go along with it even if its not specifically called a tradition.

Sola Scriptura makes it possible for a man to read the bible and split from his current “denomination” and start his own because this is what the Bible REALLY says. Purely on the basis of Sola Scriptura no one can say Charles Russell is wrong if he read the scripture in good faith and cam to his conclusions honestly.

The Catholic Church and the Watchtower do share the concept that readily admits that the bible needs to be interpreted properly. Of course the similarities end there but the frustrating thing is if you read John 6 as a JW and I read John 6 as a Catholic we are taking two vastly different ideas away based on our traditions. So really an argument based on the Bible has to be a futile exercise.

The argument then has to be which tradition is worthy of trust.

Thanks be to our Lord Jesus Christ for giving the keys to Peter!

The pope is the visible head of the Church that has God-given authority with regard to faith and morals.

 

[CeelosDeznos]

Paul was encouraging the Christians to have the same humility as Jesus had… That same chapter Paul says
9Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Definition of exalted means to raise in rank, power, or character. Can ask yourself again, If Jesus was equal to God why did God have to exalt him not only on earth but also in heaven… Does it not make you wonder

The “exalting” of Jesus is a reference not to his being equal to God, but being exalted from the state he had as a human.

6 Though he was in the form of God,
he did not consider being equal with God something to exploit.
7 But he emptied himself
by taking the form of a slave
and by becoming like human beings.
When he found himself in the form of a human,
8 he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death,
even death on a cross.
9 Therefore, God highly honored him
and gave him a name above all names,
10 so that at the name of Jesus everyone
in heaven, on earth, and under the earth might bow
11 and every tongue confess that
Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Notice that the Scripture is speaking about Christ’s “exaltation” or how “God highly honored him” due to his humbling suffering at the Cross. It isn’t saying that God made him a different entity of higher existence but bestowing honor.

As the text clearly states, Christ’s pre-human state did not prevent him from humbling himself to suffer and die as a human. However you wish to translate it, the Scripture here states that Christ had the choice between equality with God or humility as a suffering human. The text said he grasped the latter.

But who else besides God can make such a choice? No one but God Almighty can truly choose between being equal to God (or ‘exploiting this equality,’ as this more modern translation puts it) or humbling himself to something lesser. No angel, archangel, not even Satan comes anywhere close to what God is. The only one who can exploit or choose between grasping equality with God or humanity is God as being equal to God is only accessible to God.

And this has to be a literal equality within the grasp of Christ, because if it is not then why write that Christ was honored or exalted for the choice he made between the two?

 

[ajcstr]

You can easily go on the Internet type in Google about us an bam you get a lot of bad things or negative things you can say, you will believe it without even knowing a thing about us and our background or history… And yes Jw’s are aware of the history of this organisation it’s not kept secret like someone said. How do you think I must feel reading these things which is not true… I don’t mind people asking me what is our beliefs and why do we belief in this or that

I would really be interested in hearing about the history of the JW from a practicing JW so please post a response.

 

[Waynec]

I think there a more than a few who would be interested in the JW history from a current Witness.

So please do educate us if you can. Thanks

 

[ChosenOne7]

I would really be interested in hearing about the history of the JW from a practicing JW so please post a response.

The history is way too much information to type out on a thread like this, because we would have to go all the way back into the 1800’s and then come all the way back to today. There are books about our history though that discusses everything. If you have any specific questions perhaps relating to something specific you would like to know I could answer you, but I can’t summarize our history on a thread like this

 

[ajcstr]

The history is way too much information to type out on a thread like this, because we would have to go all the way back into the 1800’s and then come all the way back to today. There are books about our history though that discusses everything. If you have any specific questions perhaps relating to something specific you would like to know I could answer you, but I can’t summarize our history on a thread like this

Well, just two points then

1. Would you agree that you could trace your roots back to the Seventh Day Adventists and the Millerite movement or would you say that these groups had no influence?
2. Is there any group prior to 1800 that you can identify with?

 

[ChosenOne7]

Well, just two points then

1. Would you agree that you could trace your roots back to the Seventh Day Adventists and the Millerite movement or would you say that these groups had no influence?
2. Is there any group prior to 1800 that you can identify with?

After the death of the apostles Christianity has adopted many teachings rooted in paganism. Jesus said this would happen in his illustration of the wheat and the weeds, the apostle Paul also warned Christians that after he dies many false prophets will arise and form sects… Hence why we have so many different sects today it’s been prophesied. Russell was someone who was searching for the truth, he went to many different churches and when he heard something that didn’t sound right he would go to another church… There are many beliefs he found that was contrary to what the Bible says, some of his teachings could of come from the 7 day adventist but they too have beliefs which are contrary to the Bible, but Russell wouldn’t reject every teaching of every church it’s just the ones that didn’t appear in the Bible… What he done was kept comparing beliefs to what the Bible says he basically studied the scriptures. Even though many of the 7 day adventist beliefs are similar to the Jehovah’s Witnesses there are also many which aren’t similar like they don’t use God’s name, the belief of the trinity, and like many other religions they are not fulfilling the command of Jesus to preach the good news. Russell never claimed credit for uncovering spiritual truths but gave much credit to others who had come before him and above all he gave credit to God who was responsible for teaching his people what they need to know when they need to know it. As the years passed Russell an his associates stood ever more apart and distinct from Christiandom. Today everyone knows we are completely separate and different from the mainstream beliefs, we rather stick to following God’s word than to follow the traditions more commonly known to man or traditions followed and practiced by man. Like the Catholic Church also believes to be the truth but they share many similar beliefs with Protestants, no matter how many denominations there are most of them have the same beliefs just here an there is a few changes. But I find it weird how Jehovah’s Witnesses beliefs are completely different to all the other millions of denominations. That is something I always find interesting, how we are the only ones doing the preaching work. Sometimes it feels like the whole world is against us the little number of ppl we are but then I think of what Jesus said: “If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, on this account the world hates you.”—John 15:19. How true is that verse